Novak Protects Roger's Legacy

[August]

Novak isn't protecting Roger's legacy any more than Rafa protected Pete's. Everybody's playing for himself.

 

[Kieran]

^ It's a weak generation coming up now, but if Rafa or Nole don't catch/pass 17 there will be someone that comes along sooner rather than later. When you look at Roger and Nole as great as they are all around, they started dominating late compared to some of the other past greats (Roger turned 22 just after winning his first slam and Nole turned 24 in the middle of 2011).

Rafa's "problem" is the physical style which means he might not do well in his 30's, that and he has overachieved to even win 5 slams off of his precious dirt. He hasn't had the tools to have many completely dominating years like Roger with 5 years of 2+ slams and 3 years of 3 slams. Nole is about to have his 2nd year of 2+ and I think he may have more in the future. Rafa did really well to have 3 such years with his game.

Come on! :cover

 

[Fiero425]

Novak isn't protecting Roger's legacy any more than Rafa protected Pete's. Everybody's playing for himself.

True, but there is happenstance! McEnroe jumped on the bandwagon years ago saying Nadal would be the GOAT after all is said and done! Rafa very well could have taken over the lead in majors by now, but because of Nole coming into his own in 2011, he has put the brakes on that kind of talk; esp. by me! We thought 2011 was one of the best and most productive years in tennis history, but he's re-writing the record books, looking to outdo himself on the verge of adding to his legend! Taking out Nadal in the QF and Murray in the semi, he's made his job a lot easier in challenging for his 1st FO Sunday against Wawrinka! :angel: :dodgy:

 

[Federberg]

To be honest this is purely a provocative thread title. A more relevant thread would be... Will Novak surpass Rafa? I have my doubts about that. It always looks like something will last forever just before it ends. I'm not predicting an end for Novak, merely pointing out what's happened time and time again in all endeavours

 

[DarthFed]

^ It's a weak generation coming up now, but if Rafa or Nole don't catch/pass 17 there will be someone that comes along sooner rather than later. When you look at Roger and Nole as great as they are all around, they started dominating late compared to some of the other past greats (Roger turned 22 just after winning his first slam and Nole turned 24 in the middle of 2011).

Rafa's "problem" is the physical style which means he might not do well in his 30's, that and he has overachieved to even win 5 slams off of his precious dirt. He hasn't had the tools to have many completely dominating years like Roger with 5 years of 2+ slams and 3 years of 3 slams. Nole is about to have his 2nd year of 2+ and I think he may have more in the future. Rafa did really well to have 3 such years with his game.

Come on! :cover

What do you disagree with? It is all speculation of course but I think if you have someone like Rafa come up in that they break out at a young age it is feasible if said player has more of an aggressive all court game than Rafa.

 

[Kieran]

^ It's a weak generation coming up now, but if Rafa or Nole don't catch/pass 17 there will be someone that comes along sooner rather than later. When you look at Roger and Nole as great as they are all around, they started dominating late compared to some of the other past greats (Roger turned 22 just after winning his first slam and Nole turned 24 in the middle of 2011).

Rafa's "problem" is the physical style which means he might not do well in his 30's, that and he has overachieved to even win 5 slams off of his precious dirt. He hasn't had the tools to have many completely dominating years like Roger with 5 years of 2+ slams and 3 years of 3 slams. Nole is about to have his 2nd year of 2+ and I think he may have more in the future. Rafa did really well to have 3 such years with his game.

Come on! :cover

Why do you disagree with? It is all speculation of course but I think if you have someone like Rafa come up in that they break out at a young age it is feasible if said player has more of an aggressive all court game than Rafa.

So many red flags in your post, buddy, from the irony of the first line to the witticisms directed at Rafa. Good stuff, mind, but I'd call it a 20-pager in the level of disagreements in Fedal wars! We don't need to do it, there's good search engines here can direct folks to the arguments on both sides...

 

[the AntiPusher]

It isn't all or even mostly about the threat Rafa poses to Roger's records. Nole's game and personality and lack of bush league antics are much more appealing than Rafa's. If Djokovic had a similar style to Rafa and was a petty dude I'd also H-word/Muzza him, no questions asked.

Actually , it's the other way, there are a very large sentiment that think Nole antics are a bit over the top, he tries to hard to be liked and accepted eg. The Beloved(Fed) and the fan's favorite warrior Nadal. I was a huge Sampras fan because of the way he competed and his game,( his lunch bucket /workmanlike mentality. I didn't gravitate to Roger because it really was hard to just give up on Pete. Then came Rafa and his gladiator style approach. I like Djokovic game but not as a person. All this craps about Rafa being a petty dude and what not is just conjecture because he has dominated the Beloved one.

 

[Kieran]

Well, Novak "wanting to be liked" has worked against him too, when he hadn't fought well where the crowd are against him. He's a nice bloke but the dancing with the ballboys after some matches, in front of his defeated opponent, was crass and embarrassing. Kinda cloying. He didn't, obviously, take up the offer to dance after he'd been defeated, and his opponent had the decency not to turn up the music and party on court while Nole was suffering court side.

 

[Front242]

I think most would find more to dislike about Nadal somehow but that's just me. Actually it's probably not just me

 

[Fiero425]

I think most would find more to dislike about Nadal somehow but that's just me. Actually it's probably not just me

That's for sure! I could go on and on about Nadal! I just never liked his act from the beginning! Strange how even as a kid, some players can rub you the wrong way; Nadal, Agassi, Roddick, Arias, Courier, Connors, McEnroe, & Becker! :cover :angel: :dodgy:

 

[Kieran]

I think most would find more to dislike about Nadal somehow but that's just me. Actually it's probably not just me

I like them all, personally, Rafa, Nole, Andy. All them except one, obviously.

Lukas Rosol! :devil

 

[brokenshoelace]

Murray started off as the epitome of a counter puncher and personally I dislike that type of play. I like the way he plays these days a lot more but can't stand his on court behaviour. Off court he has a dry but often funny sense of humour, especially in tweets. I could probably stand him a bit more too if he bothered spending some of his millions on a haircut

Murray was a more aggressive player when he started out circa 2007-2008. Was a counter-puncher and still is, but he was more aggressive.

 

[brokenshoelace]

I can't say that I remember all the other Fed fans' attitudes toward Nole but I don't think most hated him as you seem to think. I certainly didn't as I was frustrated with how badly he had regressed by the US Open in 2010. Many of us discussed if he would ever become a force again like he was in the 1st half of 2008.

Neither I nor Broken said "hated."

My recollection would be largely indifference. A beef I had with Nole back in the day was related to match retirements but he fixed that up long ago.

I can see that it was mostly indifference, but Federer, at least, had reasons not to like the guy: irritating parents making arrogant statements, retiring from matches, and those pesky USO SFs. Mostly Fed fans followed on this line of reasoning, though, as I remember. Not a lot of love lost. Yes, Djokovic was mostly an irritation, not a threat. But it did really all change when Novak started beating Rafa in 2011. Rather suddenly all was forgiven and he had a new co-fanbase. It was a marriage of convenience.

Careful now, I wouldn't want you to generalize a whole fanbase or even most of one. I kind of remember Nadal fans on this board who were not appreciative of being grouped with autopilot and other over the top Rafalites.

Roger had plenty reason not to like Nole, he was a brash young guy who wasn't afraid to talk a little trash (he said Roger was going down before their 2007 AO 4th rounder), and we all know what his parents were like. But as a fan, aside from his annoying parents, I found all of that intriguing to go along with his humor off the court. And I liked his game from the get go, people incorrectly see him defend great and think he is a grinder like Nadal. Novak has a lot of firepower in his game and the returning is pure sick (except when he's hurting Roger with it). I'm more in line with BB in that the only thing I didn't like was all the withdrawals. To say Nole wasn't an ironman in his younger days is a major understatement and it was no coincidence that he would withdraw near the finish line of a match he was about to lose.

I honestly don't remember many Fed fans "disliking" Nole (huge difference between hate I guess :snicker), rather we all may have had a little extra joy when Roger beat him with his parents in the stands. I find most Roger fans have always "disliked" Murray a lot more and that's due to the difference in their games. Nole is much more of a shotmaker and I find him to be much more exciting to watch than Murray, Rafa, Ferrer, etc.

Wait, Nadal is a grinder now? The f*ck has happened to this place?

 

[brokenshoelace]

I wanted to add that I'm also amazed at the simplistic analysis of some posters to the effect that Novak fans like him because he never really threatened Roger, that Fed fans become Novak fans when Novak began beating Rafa, and that Fed fans and Novak fans dislike Rafa simply because he threatens their guys. Or worse yet, talking about the excess "bile" directed towards Rafa on this forum. This is particularly rich coming from one Rafa fan who referred to Novak as "A SOLID BASELINER AND SERIOUS TIME-VIOLATOR UNTIL RECENTLY". I guess it depends on how one defines "recently", but awfully ironic for a Rafa fan to even WHISPER about Novak being a time violator, or to refer to Novak as a "baseliner" , when they scream bloody murder when one refers to Nadal as a glorified dirtballer, even though 2/3 of his current slam total came at RG and a similar percentage of his Masters titles were on clay as well.

What's wrong with calling Novak a baseliner? He's probably the most complete baseliner I've ever seen.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Rafa's "problem" is the physical style which means he might not do well in his 30's, that and he has overachieved to even win 5 slams off of his precious dirt.

God, you're turning into Cali. He's overacheieved? Based on what? You didn't think his level of play at the US Open in 2010 and 2013 was phenomenal? Really? You didn't think he looked like a world beater on grass in 2008?

I really don't mind the fan bickering. In fact, I welcome it. But the narratives have been absolute $hit and the logic has been worse.

 

[DarthFed]

Neither I nor Broken said "hated."



I can see that it was mostly indifference, but Federer, at least, had reasons not to like the guy: irritating parents making arrogant statements, retiring from matches, and those pesky USO SFs. Mostly Fed fans followed on this line of reasoning, though, as I remember. Not a lot of love lost. Yes, Djokovic was mostly an irritation, not a threat. But it did really all change when Novak started beating Rafa in 2011. Rather suddenly all was forgiven and he had a new co-fanbase. It was a marriage of convenience.

Careful now, I wouldn't want you to generalize a whole fanbase or even most of one. I kind of remember Nadal fans on this board who were not appreciative of being grouped with autopilot and other over the top Rafalites.

Roger had plenty reason not to like Nole, he was a brash young guy who wasn't afraid to talk a little trash (he said Roger was going down before their 2007 AO 4th rounder), and we all know what his parents were like. But as a fan, aside from his annoying parents, I found all of that intriguing to go along with his humor off the court. And I liked his game from the get go, people incorrectly see him defend great and think he is a grinder like Nadal. Novak has a lot of firepower in his game and the returning is pure sick (except when he's hurting Roger with it). I'm more in line with BB in that the only thing I didn't like was all the withdrawals. To say Nole wasn't an ironman in his younger days is a major understatement and it was no coincidence that he would withdraw near the finish line of a match he was about to lose.

I honestly don't remember many Fed fans "disliking" Nole (huge difference between hate I guess :snicker), rather we all may have had a little extra joy when Roger beat him with his parents in the stands. I find most Roger fans have always "disliked" Murray a lot more and that's due to the difference in their games. Nole is much more of a shotmaker and I find him to be much more exciting to watch than Murray, Rafa, Ferrer, etc.

Wait, Nadal is a grinder now? The f*ck has happened to this place?

What the f*** would you call his style of play? Would you label him an aggressive baseliner? Now just because he is no longer a pure pusher doesn't mean his style isn't by and large that of a grinder. His play is high percentage, kick the ball up high to the opponent's backhand and either wait for a miss or a short reply for an easy put away. He is not an attacking player in the slightest, not even close to being as aggressive as Nole, let alone Roger or others. Nadal in his prime was the greatest defender the game has seen and the most consistent baseliner as well but he's never had what one would call an aggressive baseline game.

 

[DarthFed]

Rafa's "problem" is the physical style which means he might not do well in his 30's, that and he has overachieved to even win 5 slams off of his precious dirt.

God, you're turning into Cali. He's overacheieved? Based on what? You didn't think his level of play at the US Open in 2010 and 2013 was phenomenal? Really? You didn't think he looked like a world beater on grass in 2008?

I really don't mind the fan bickering. In fact, I welcome it. But the narratives have been absolute $hit and the logic has been worse.

He overachieved off clay based on the fact his game is not anywhere near as effective off of it. The fact he played awesome in 2010 and 2013 at USO is almost proof. In all the other years he has been on tour he has not come close to that level. And in 2013 he beat a much superior HC player than himself in the final. In 2008 he beat a much superior grass court player than himself in the final. I'd say 5 slams off of clay has been pretty impressive considering his game vs. the competition.

 

[Moxie]

Rafa's "problem" is the physical style which means he might not do well in his 30's, that and he has overachieved to even win 5 slams off of his precious dirt.

God, you're turning into Cali. He's overacheieved? Based on what? You didn't think his level of play at the US Open in 2010 and 2013 was phenomenal? Really? You didn't think he looked like a world beater on grass in 2008?

I really don't mind the fan bickering. In fact, I welcome it. But the narratives have been absolute $hit and the logic has been worse.

He overachieved off clay based on the fact his game is not anywhere near as effective off of it. The fact he played awesome in 2010 and 2013 at USO is almost proof. In all the other years he has been on tour he has not come close to that level. And in 2013 he beat a much superior HC player than himself in the final. In 2008 he beat a much superior grass court player than himself in the final. I'd say 5 slams off of clay has been pretty impressive considering his game vs. the competition.

Well, his game has been pretty effective off clay, if winning 5 Slams off of it counts, and some MS titles. Broken once said something smart to Cali which applies here: players don't play with their resumes, they play to their current levels. Roger certainly has a superior record on grass to almost anyone ever, but he wasn't the superior player to Rafa in 2008. Likewise against Novak at the USO in 2010 and 2013. Rafa was the superior player to Novak in 2010, even though Nole was very good on HCs. And no one was playing better HC tennis in the USO series in 2013 than Nadal. This is not over-achieving. It's being the better player at that point in time.

As to the other, if you say that you always rather liked Novak's game, I accept that, and it's not surprising to have liked it better when he went up that notch, and also stopped retiring from matches so often. (Due to improved health.) Forgive the assumption, but it was hard for not to feel that it was a coincidence that Fedfans took on Nole once he was beating Nadal. If that was an erroneous assumption, then I stand corrected.

 

[Front242]

Speaking personally I liked Djokovic even back when he started beating Federer. Just 'cos someone beats your favourite player doesn't mean you should dislike them. I was a big Nalbandian fan and he had a winning h2h for quite a while in their early days. He was just awesome to watch when he played well. Same with Djokovic. As tennis goes when it comes to those two, what's not to like?

 

[the AntiPusher]

Rafa's "problem" is the physical style which means he might not do well in his 30's, that and he has overachieved to even win 5 slams off of his precious dirt.

God, you're turning into Cali. He's overacheieved? Based on what? You didn't think his level of play at the US Open in 2010 and 2013 was phenomenal? Really? You didn't think he looked like a world beater on grass in 2008?

I really don't mind the fan bickering. In fact, I welcome it. But the narratives have been absolute $hit and the logic has been worse.

He overachieved off clay based on the fact his game is not anywhere near as effective off of it. The fact he played awesome in 2010 and 2013 at USO is almost proof. In all the other years he has been on tour he has not come close to that level. And in 2013 he beat a much superior HC player than himself in the final. In 2008 he beat a much superior grass court player than himself in the final. I'd say 5 slams off of clay has been pretty impressive considering his game vs. the competition.

"He overactived off clay"
Darth, that makes no damn sense !It's a very baseless comment. Rafael has made it to 11 non clay GS finals, (,won 5 lost 6) . That alone says he is the most consistent player other than Roger and we all know his h2h record vs Roger at the GSs.