Novak Protects Roger's Legacy

[Moxie]

They might dislike Novak, but I don't buy they would necessarily like Rafa, if they are into the style of play Fed provides. Also Novak plays more aggressive game than Rafa. I am not saying there is nothing to what you are saying, but you are also ignoring the facts that support the alternative notion in terms of game, Fed fans would be more naturally attracted to how Novak plays than Rafa... I do think some like Novak more because they don't like Rafa than wanting to protect Fed's numbers. As much as Rafa inspires love amongst his fans, I think also attracts the most strong dislike by others.

Oh how I wish the old forum archives were still here. Would have had a field day with Fed fans' takes on Novak pre-2011.

I can't say that I remember all the other Fed fans' attitudes toward Nole but I don't think most hated him as you seem to think. I certainly didn't as I was frustrated with how badly he had regressed by the US Open in 2010. Many of us discussed if he would ever become a force again like he was in the 1st half of 2008.

Neither I nor Broken said "hated."

Oh how I wish the old forum archives were still here. Would have had a field day with Fed fans' takes on Novak pre-2011.

I can't say that I remember all the other Fed fans' attitudes toward Nole but I don't think most hated him as you seem to think. I certainly didn't as I was frustrated with how badly he had regressed by the US Open in 2010. Many of us discussed if he would ever become a force again like he was in the 1st half of 2008.

My recollection would be largely indifference. A beef I had with Nole back in the day was related to match retirements but he fixed that up long ago.

I can see that it was mostly indifference, but Federer, at least, had reasons not to like the guy: irritating parents making arrogant statements, retiring from matches, and those pesky USO SFs. Mostly Fed fans followed on this line of reasoning, though, as I remember. Not a lot of love lost. Yes, Djokovic was mostly an irritation, not a threat. But it did really all change when Novak started beating Rafa in 2011. Rather suddenly all was forgiven and he had a new co-fanbase. It was a marriage of convenience.

 

[britbox]

^ Too binary and too convenient. Not everything on the planet revolves around Nadal. At least for many.

 

[Moxie]

I'm not ignoring anything, and I think you get me completely. Rafa and Roger are polar opposites in terms of game, and the press ate that up. They created the perfect rivalry and dichotomy. And then Rafa stopped being just a dirt-baller. Yikes. Perfect set-up for the Fed fans to hate him, and create all kinds of narratives whereby he was lesser, evil, etc. A lot of it unfair, IMO. But hear me out.

Fed fans didn't much like Djokovic because Federer himself didn't, for a long time, and that was obvious. Everything changed when Nole found a new level, and was able to do to Rafa what Roger hadn't: stop him at Slams, and challenge his game. Suddenly, a bromance was born, especially as a co-joining of factions. I take your point that my parallel universe is imperfect, but it's not without validity. The Federer fans protect Roger's legacy, and they would have been against whomever was the greater threat.

By the same token, Nadal complicates both Roger and Novak's legacies, and so he is seen as the enemy by both camps. That's why we get so much anti-Nadal bile.

Which has been frankly shameless. And we Nadal fans get criticized just for backing him. He is a great champion, and the reasons for slagging him are factional, as much as anything else. The "hating" on him is not about his game, or anything else, so much as it is about his threat.

I recall you saying something along the lines of anybody but Novak to win this current tournament. I don't get why it's surprising or upsetting that fans of opposing players don't like the other guy. I don't care that most of the Rafa fans dislike Novak.

Some Nadal fans IMO often betray a bit of a victim complex.

I've been straightforward about that. But to claim a victim complex of Nadal fans is a bit rich from a Djokovic fan, who call that one all the time. (Not you, per se, but the fan base at large.) He's SOOO under appreciated! You can see, RB, that there is a lot of anti-Nadal bile around here. It doesn't even pretend to disguise itself. So we, his fans, defend him. And we fully believe that it comes from the threat that he is to the favorites of two other fan groups. Otherwise, he's a great champion who has accomplished a lot, and doesn't deserve, IMO, to be slagged off as badly as he gets. By a long stretch. Folks make much of why they don't like him, but we really know why.

 

[britbox]

Oh how I wish the old forum archives were still here. Would have had a field day with Fed fans' takes on Novak pre-2011.

You can try this:

http://archive.org/web/web.php

479 billion pages ?..we're gonna need a bigger bookshelf.

You may have never met the poster on tennis.com called "Sampras_Fan". 479 billion pages is lower than I remembered.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Oh yeah and, lighten up, Moxie!

Why, because I was the first one to actually address the controversial notion of the OP? And Riotbeard engaged me in a very interesting conversation, based on comments, btw. Would you really have preferred everyone to either keep dancing around it, or just say things that were mincing and tidy? This is an opinion forum. I didn't create the topic, which is controversial, you have to admit. (I'd add an emoticon, but I can't find one for 'give me a break.')

I just personally think the tribalism around players is a bit silly, that we all could be a bit lighter about such things and not take it so personally. I mean, it is a game, right?

How about this one for "gimme a break":

:dodgy: or :nono or even

I would suggest giving them a break for a week minimum. The wound is fresh. Time heals all wounds. Hopefully, people will come to senses as time passes.

 

[Fiero425]

Maybe in addition to this thread, another could be created with players who helped Roger's cause and contributed to his greatness! Soderling at the top of the list taking Nadal out in '09 FO! A nice gift basket and a car should have been sent to both of Robin's homes; Sweden and Monte Carlo! For obvious reasons, Nole should get tons of credit! He single-handedly has prevented Nadal from acquiring at least half a dozen majors! Rafa would have zipped past Roger and solidified his status as the GOAT instead of Fed, absolutely "owning" his closest rival at the time! That won't be the case very much longer with Nole who's just 3 Masters titles and 2 H2H match deficits IIRC! I'll always think of Roger as "The Man" as things stand now, but how do you explain that record vs Rafa? It's ugly; real ugly! If it were just a few matches; but even if you dismiss the clay surface chps, Roger is still owned! :cover :nono :eyepop

 

[brokenshoelace]

You can try this:

http://archive.org/web/web.php

479 billion pages ?..we're gonna need a bigger bookshelf.

You may have never met the poster on tennis.com called "Sampras_Fan". 479 billion pages is lower than I remembered.

:laydownlaughing What a blast from the past.

Ah the days when Sampras_Fan, Pete and Huntingyou made Cali, Federberg and I look like amateurs.

 

[Kieran]

479 billion pages ?..we're gonna need a bigger bookshelf.

You may have never met the poster on tennis.com called "Sampras_Fan". 479 billion pages is lower than I remembered.

:laydownlaughing What a blast from the past.

Ah the days when Sampras_Fan, Pete and Huntingyou made Cali, Federberg and I look like amateurs.

Them boys are gents...

 

[Riotbeard]

I've been straightforward about that. But to claim a victim complex of Nadal fans is a bit rich from a Djokovic fan, who call that one all the time. (Not you, per se, but the fan base at large.) He's SOOO under appreciated! You can see, RB, that there is a lot of anti-Nadal bile around here. It doesn't even pretend to disguise itself. So we, his fans, defend him. And we fully believe that it comes from the threat that he is to the favorites of two other fan groups. Otherwise, he's a great champion who has accomplished a lot, and doesn't deserve, IMO, to be slagged off as badly as he gets. By a long stretch. Folks make much of why they don't like him, but we really know why.

Novak fans victim complex does not mean Rafa fans are innocent I have always thought that stuff is dumb. People don't know novak as well or like him as much as fedal because he came to the party late and has not achieved as much as them. So what?!

I think anti-nadal bile is a bit strong. There is a difference in people not liking a player and expressing that dislike and being a hater or trolling, not to mention there is a specific recent incident that bothered a lot of people.

 

[DarthFed]

Oh how I wish the old forum archives were still here. Would have had a field day with Fed fans' takes on Novak pre-2011.

I can't say that I remember all the other Fed fans' attitudes toward Nole but I don't think most hated him as you seem to think. I certainly didn't as I was frustrated with how badly he had regressed by the US Open in 2010. Many of us discussed if he would ever become a force again like he was in the 1st half of 2008.

Neither I nor Broken said "hated."

I can't say that I remember all the other Fed fans' attitudes toward Nole but I don't think most hated him as you seem to think. I certainly didn't as I was frustrated with how badly he had regressed by the US Open in 2010. Many of us discussed if he would ever become a force again like he was in the 1st half of 2008.

My recollection would be largely indifference. A beef I had with Nole back in the day was related to match retirements but he fixed that up long ago.

I can see that it was mostly indifference, but Federer, at least, had reasons not to like the guy: irritating parents making arrogant statements, retiring from matches, and those pesky USO SFs. Mostly Fed fans followed on this line of reasoning, though, as I remember. Not a lot of love lost. Yes, Djokovic was mostly an irritation, not a threat. But it did really all change when Novak started beating Rafa in 2011. Rather suddenly all was forgiven and he had a new co-fanbase. It was a marriage of convenience.

Careful now, I wouldn't want you to generalize a whole fanbase or even most of one. I kind of remember Nadal fans on this board who were not appreciative of being grouped with autopilot and other over the top Rafalites.

Roger had plenty reason not to like Nole, he was a brash young guy who wasn't afraid to talk a little trash (he said Roger was going down before their 2007 AO 4th rounder), and we all know what his parents were like. But as a fan, aside from his annoying parents, I found all of that intriguing to go along with his humor off the court. And I liked his game from the get go, people incorrectly see him defend great and think he is a grinder like Nadal. Novak has a lot of firepower in his game and the returning is pure sick (except when he's hurting Roger with it). I'm more in line with BB in that the only thing I didn't like was all the withdrawals. To say Nole wasn't an ironman in his younger days is a major understatement and it was no coincidence that he would withdraw near the finish line of a match he was about to lose.

I honestly don't remember many Fed fans "disliking" Nole (huge difference between hate I guess :snicker), rather we all may have had a little extra joy when Roger beat him with his parents in the stands. I find most Roger fans have always "disliked" Murray a lot more and that's due to the difference in their games. Nole is much more of a shotmaker and I find him to be much more exciting to watch than Murray, Rafa, Ferrer, etc.

 

[Front242]

Murray started off as the epitome of a counter puncher and personally I dislike that type of play. I like the way he plays these days a lot more but can't stand his on court behaviour. Off court he has a dry but often funny sense of humour, especially in tweets. I could probably stand him a bit more too if he bothered spending some of his millions on a haircut

 

[DarthFed]

^ Agreed. It's hard not to like Murray when he's playing aggressive like this past match, and late 2012-2013 period. The on court antics, particularly when he grabs a different body part after every miss has always been annoying though.

 

[Kieran]

Murray has his tics and gropes etc, but generally I don't mind watching him. He's kinda frustrating when he doesn't push forward, but watching some of his attempts to construct forecourt play, he's better to wait for his opponent to miss... :snicker

 

[lacatch]

I am amazed that many think on here think that Roger doesn't care about maintaining his GS legacy, and is just playing because he loves the sport. I truly believe that he LOVES the game, but also don't agree with the former. I think Roger cares A LOT about his GS total, and it will be a tough record to beat in the near future. I feel that based on Nadal's current career trajectory, he might have one more slam in him (RG) but is unlikely to surpass Roger. As well as Nole is playing, it's hard to imagine him passing Roger either, unless he wins all the slams this year and has a couple of more spectacular years. And there's nobody on the horizon who has the goods to come close (I'm not including upcoming teenagers in this).

 

[Kieran]

Well, the point being that Roger's total is his own, he worked hard for it and he's gotten it. Whether somebody does or doesn't meet it has no effect on what he's done because at no stage could he have done more. He's maximised his talents and effort. So he could have no regrets either way...

 

[DarthFed]

I am amazed that many think on here think that Roger doesn't care about maintaining his GS legacy, and is just playing because he loves the sport. I truly believe that he LOVES the game, but also don't agree with the former. I think Roger cares A LOT about his GS total, and it will be a tough record to beat in the near future. I feel that based on Nadal's current career trajectory, he might have one more slam in him (RG) but is unlikely to surpass Roger. As well as Nole is playing, it's hard to imagine him passing Roger either, unless he wins all the slams this year and has a couple of more spectacular years. And there's nobody on the horizon who has the goods to come close (I'm not including upcoming teenagers in this).

They are all competitors. There is no doubt Roger would hope all his records stand long after he's retired. That said he is a realist and all great athletes know that records are made to be broken. There will be many of his records that will last an incredibly long time, but I don't think 17 is one of them, not in this era of homogenized courts with all play coming from the baseline. That's why I as a greedy fan am hoping Roger gets to 19. That would take a long time to duplicate/beat IMO.

 

[lacatch]

I wanted to add that I'm also amazed at the simplistic analysis of some posters to the effect that Novak fans like him because he never really threatened Roger, that Fed fans become Novak fans when Novak began beating Rafa, and that Fed fans and Novak fans dislike Rafa simply because he threatens their guys. Or worse yet, talking about the excess "bile" directed towards Rafa on this forum. This is particularly rich coming from one Rafa fan who referred to Novak as "A SOLID BASELINER AND SERIOUS TIME-VIOLATOR UNTIL RECENTLY". I guess it depends on how one defines "recently", but awfully ironic for a Rafa fan to even WHISPER about Novak being a time violator, or to refer to Novak as a "baseliner" , when they scream bloody murder when one refers to Nadal as a glorified dirtballer, even though 2/3 of his current slam total came at RG and a similar percentage of his Masters titles were on clay as well.

 

[Fiero425]

I am amazed that many think on here think that Roger doesn't care about maintaining his GS legacy, and is just playing because he loves the sport. I truly believe that he LOVES the game, but also don't agree with the former. I think Roger cares A LOT about his GS total, and it will be a tough record to beat in the near future. I feel that based on Nadal's current career trajectory, he might have one more slam in him (RG) but is unlikely to surpass Roger. As well as Nole is playing, it's hard to imagine him passing Roger either, unless he wins all the slams this year and has a couple of more spectacular years. And there's nobody on the horizon who has the goods to come close (I'm not including upcoming teenagers in this).

They are all competitors. There is no doubt Roger would hope all his records stand long after he's retired. That said he is a realist and all great athletes know that records are made to be broken. There will be many of his records that will last an incredibly long time, but I don't think 17 is one of them, not in this era of homogenized courts with all play coming from the baseline. That's why I as a greedy fan am hoping Roger gets to 19. That would take a long time to duplicate/beat IMO.

But outside the Big 4, who has the stamina and mental stability to win on a regular basis? Today's stars seem to be so fragile playing with bigger sticks, heavier balls, and more responsibility and travel! :cover :nono

 

[Sundaymorningguy]

It will be interesting if Novak wins tomorrow and can somehow pull off the Calendar Slam, then he will be at 11 slams and counting, but if he were to win the calendar slam and a few more then it would seem that he will enter into some GOAT potential himself.

 

[DarthFed]

^ It's a weak generation coming up now, but if Rafa or Nole don't catch/pass 17 there will be someone that comes along sooner rather than later. When you look at Roger and Nole as great as they are all around, they started dominating late compared to some of the other past greats (Roger turned 22 just after winning his first slam and Nole turned 24 in the middle of 2011).

Rafa's "problem" is the physical style which means he might not do well in his 30's, that and he has overachieved to even win 5 slams off of his precious dirt. He hasn't had the tools to have many completely dominating years like Roger with 5 years of 2+ slams and 3 years of 3 slams. Nole is about to have his 2nd year of 2+ and I think he may have more in the future. Rafa did really well to have 3 such years with his game.