Novak Protects Roger's Legacy

[DarthFed]

And yes, Nole of 2013 was a better HC player "on average" (not that year because Nadal was in insane form that he was never going to maintain which is part of my point), Roger of 2008 was still a better grass court player "on average". The Nadal of 2015 is not a better clay court player on average than Nole is right now. Nadal has been dreadful from the start this year so that's an idiotic comparison on your part.

Oh Jesus, the irony. Novak in 2013 was not a better HC player that year (you said it yourself)...nor is Nadal better clay court player than Novak this year. It's literally the same. Yet you think it's not idiotic to call Novak a vastly superior hard court player in 2013, but it's idiotic to call Nadal a vastly superior clay court player this year?

I take back the part where I implied you're smarter than this.

The difference sweetheart is that Nadal was better in 2013 because he was playing way better on HC than he has before or since. The reason Djokovic and even Stan and Murray are better on clay than Rafa in 2015 is because the latter has stunk that bad.

 

[DarthFed]

You know of many grinders with his forehand whose MO is to try to push you back further as he slowly gains more ground and steps closer to the baseline? This is literally Nadal's gameplan in a nutshell.

Just because it doesn't work against one guy (Djokovic) and he's vulnerable to the occasional hot performance by someone who hits him off the court doesn't mean it's any less true.

"Kick the ball high to the opponent's backhand" is about the most BS disingenuous way of putting it. You do realize the ferocity in which he "kicks the ball to the backhand" and how far behind it pushes most players right?

Also, your non sequitur fallacies are insane. Nobody said he's ass aggressive as Djokovic or Roger. That literally has nothing to do with anything. I said calling him a grinder is dubious.

The part about him being the greatest defender is equally dumb. Yes, he was. Does that make him a grinder? Let's see...who's the greatest defender in today's game? Novak Djokovic. I guess he's "grinded his way" to the FO final then. Just because you're a great defender doesn't mean you're a grinder. Even if you want to call Nadal a grinder, this would literally only apply to 2005-2006. You know of many guys who reach 5 consecutive Wimbledon finals and win 2 US Opens with "grinding"? Yes, even on "slow grass" bla bla bla. Use your head.

The closest things to grinders in today's game would be guys like Simon and Monfils, and even they, when you realize how they can hit the ball at times don't fit the description.

It's sad that the majority of this forum understands nothing about tennis. The problem with the fan bickering, which I enjoy dearly, is it's gotten so tense that people are letting their bias so blatantly cloud their basic understanding of the game. I know you're smarter than this...

The part about him being a great defender is that it is a big part of why he's had such a crazy amount of success despite the fact he is not an aggressive player, doesn't have a big serve, etc. And I mentioned that because the natural response is "how can someone be a grinder and win so much". I know that defense has nothing to do with grinding, maybe try to read a little clearer before going on a tirade little baby. And after all that whining you notably refrain from labeling Nadal's game? Again, I am not saying he is a pusher (that is Bautista Agut, often Monfils, and insert average clay courter here like Monaco). But are you going to call him an aggressive baseliner (like Roger, Nole, Stan)? Big hitter (like Berd, Soderling, DP)?

The "natural response" is not natural at all. Plenty of players have been successful without being too aggressive.

I'd call him an aggressive baseliner, yes. Not as aggressive as Nole, but they play completely different. It's not like there's a label and a criteria list to be met before you can be branded as an aggressive baseliner, a pusher, etc... Tennis is far more nuanced. And Federer is an all court player. At least know how your favorite player plays.

Yes so what you're saying is that it's mostly a matter of opinion of what style we "brand" players yet you're going ballistic at the thought that Nadal's style is mostly that of a grinder. Roger is now much more of an all court player than in his prime, that I agree with.

 

[Riotbeard]

And yes, Nole of 2013 was a better HC player "on average" (not that year because Nadal was in insane form that he was never going to maintain which is part of my point), Roger of 2008 was still a better grass court player "on average". The Nadal of 2015 is not a better clay court player on average than Nole is right now. Nadal has been dreadful from the start this year so that's an idiotic comparison on your part.

Oh Jesus, the irony. Novak in 2013 was not a better HC player that year (you said it yourself)...nor is Nadal better clay court player than Novak this year. It's literally the same. Yet you think it's not idiotic to call Novak a vastly superior hard court player in 2013, but it's idiotic to call Nadal a vastly superior clay court player this year?

I take back the part where I implied you're smarter than this.

If memory serves Novak had only one less significant hardcourt title in 2013 than rafa. To my knowledge, Rafa has no significant wins or titles on any surface this year, so they seem to be highly different years and thus poor comparisons.

 

[brokenshoelace]

And yes, Nole of 2013 was a better HC player "on average" (not that year because Nadal was in insane form that he was never going to maintain which is part of my point), Roger of 2008 was still a better grass court player "on average". The Nadal of 2015 is not a better clay court player on average than Nole is right now. Nadal has been dreadful from the start this year so that's an idiotic comparison on your part.

Oh Jesus, the irony. Novak in 2013 was not a better HC player that year (you said it yourself)...nor is Nadal better clay court player than Novak this year. It's literally the same. Yet you think it's not idiotic to call Novak a vastly superior hard court player in 2013, but it's idiotic to call Nadal a vastly superior clay court player this year?

I take back the part where I implied you're smarter than this.

If memory serves Novak had only one less significant hardcourt title in 2013 than rafa. To my knowledge, Rafa has no significant wins or titles on any surface this year, so they seem to be highly different years and thus poor comparisons.

We've had that conversation before. Novak won the AO when Rafa was still out then Rafa went on a tear and won every hard court title he played between IW and the US Open. Then Novak dominated the fall season. We know Nadal is shaky indoors. Outdoors hard is a different proposition and thus more relevant to the conversation.

It's important to note that when Nadal beat Novak at the US Open that year, it was on the heels of his best ever hard court run and Novak had "only" won ONE HC title that year. He won the others AFTER, so when they played, Nadal was the superior hard court player up until that point (strictly talking about that year) as evidenced by twice toppling Novak in Canada and the US Open.

 

[brokenshoelace]

And yes, Nole of 2013 was a better HC player "on average" (not that year because Nadal was in insane form that he was never going to maintain which is part of my point), Roger of 2008 was still a better grass court player "on average". The Nadal of 2015 is not a better clay court player on average than Nole is right now. Nadal has been dreadful from the start this year so that's an idiotic comparison on your part.

Oh Jesus, the irony. Novak in 2013 was not a better HC player that year (you said it yourself)...nor is Nadal better clay court player than Novak this year. It's literally the same. Yet you think it's not idiotic to call Novak a vastly superior hard court player in 2013, but it's idiotic to call Nadal a vastly superior clay court player this year?

I take back the part where I implied you're smarter than this.

The difference sweetheart is that Nadal was better in 2013 because he was playing way better on HC than he has before or since. The reason Djokovic and even Stan and Murray are better on clay than Rafa in 2015 is because the latter has stunk that bad.

OK...so how does that mean he overachieved? The word you're looking for is "improved."

 

[Riotbeard]

Oh Jesus, the irony. Novak in 2013 was not a better HC player that year (you said it yourself)...nor is Nadal better clay court player than Novak this year. It's literally the same. Yet you think it's not idiotic to call Novak a vastly superior hard court player in 2013, but it's idiotic to call Nadal a vastly superior clay court player this year?

I take back the part where I implied you're smarter than this.

If memory serves Novak had only one less significant hardcourt title in 2013 than rafa. To my knowledge, Rafa has no significant wins or titles on any surface this year, so they seem to be highly different years and thus poor comparisons.

We've had that conversation before. Novak won the AO when Rafa was still out then Rafa went on a tear and won every hard court title he played between IW and the US Open. Then Novak dominated the fall season. We know Nadal is shaky indoors. Outdoors hard is a different proposition and thus more relevant to the conversation.

It's important to note that when Nadal beat Novak at the US Open that year, it was on the heels of his best ever hard court run and Novak had "only" won ONE HC title that year. He won the others AFTER, so when they played, Nadal was the superior hard court player up until that point (strictly talking about that year) as evidenced by twice toppling Novak in Canada and the US Open.

I actually agree that Rafa was the better player overall that year on hards (at outdoor), but they were very close. Even with losing today, Rafa has not been close to Novak anywhere this year.

 

[brokenshoelace]

If memory serves Novak had only one less significant hardcourt title in 2013 than rafa. To my knowledge, Rafa has no significant wins or titles on any surface this year, so they seem to be highly different years and thus poor comparisons.

We've had that conversation before. Novak won the AO when Rafa was still out then Rafa went on a tear and won every hard court title he played between IW and the US Open. Then Novak dominated the fall season. We know Nadal is shaky indoors. Outdoors hard is a different proposition and thus more relevant to the conversation.

It's important to note that when Nadal beat Novak at the US Open that year, it was on the heels of his best ever hard court run and Novak had "only" won ONE HC title that year. He won the others AFTER, so when they played, Nadal was the superior hard court player up until that point (strictly talking about that year) as evidenced by twice toppling Novak in Canada and the US Open.

I actually agree that Rafa was the better player overall that year on hards (at outdoor), but they were very close. Even with losing today, Rafa has not been close to Novak anywhere this year.

Yeah, obviously. I wasn't seriously making the argument, I was just using Darth's iffy logic.

 

[DarthFed]

Oh Jesus, the irony. Novak in 2013 was not a better HC player that year (you said it yourself)...nor is Nadal better clay court player than Novak this year. It's literally the same. Yet you think it's not idiotic to call Novak a vastly superior hard court player in 2013, but it's idiotic to call Nadal a vastly superior clay court player this year?

I take back the part where I implied you're smarter than this.

The difference sweetheart is that Nadal was better in 2013 because he was playing way better on HC than he has before or since. The reason Djokovic and even Stan and Murray are better on clay than Rafa in 2015 is because the latter has stunk that bad.

Because he never came close to it before or after. It was not a level he could maintain particularly his serve and backhand. And with that he's beaten guys who generally excel off of clay more than he has. I'm not sure why this got everyone's panties in a bunch.

OK...so how does that mean he overachieved? The word you're looking for is "improved."

 

[brokenshoelace]

The difference sweetheart is that Nadal was better in 2013 because he was playing way better on HC than he has before or since. The reason Djokovic and even Stan and Murray are better on clay than Rafa in 2015 is because the latter has stunk that bad.

Because he never came close to it before or after. It was not a level he could maintain particularly his serve and backhand. And with that he's beaten guys who generally excel off of clay more than he has. I'm not sure why this got everyone's panties in a bunch.

OK...so how does that mean he overachieved? The word you're looking for is "improved."

Dude he isn't Del Potro. He reached that level before on hards in 2010 when he had won it. Yes, it's nothing he could sustain but his natural level on the surface isn't THAT far below, as evidenced by him reaching the final in 2011 after clobbering Murray and only losing to an inspired Djokovic, and him reaching 2 other AO finals other than the one he won. You're making it sound like he fluked out a performance well above his level that was out of the blue. He had been playing that way on hards all year.

And what about 5 consecutive Wimbledon finals? He did it for 5 years. Was that not sustained enough or did he have to do it for another half a decade?

 

[Front242]

He "started beating Federer" around the same time he "started beating Nadal." Before that, Federer was largely getting the better of him.

Everything you said in your post could be true, but I'm pointing out the coincidence.

Now that you've finished pointing out the coincidence go back and read it properly as I said Nalbandian had the better of Federer for quite some time early in their careers and I was a great fan of him.

Yeah, you're right, Nalbandian/Federer rivalry is very similar to Federer/Nadal rivalry...in no shape or form at all.

I agree. The former was aesthetic perfection most of the time to coin cali's words and the latter is mostly fugly as ****.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Now that you've finished pointing out the coincidence go back and read it properly as I said Nalbandian had the better of Federer for quite some time early in their careers and I was a great fan of him.

Yeah, you're right, Nalbandian/Federer rivalry is very similar to Federer/Nadal rivalry...in no shape or form at all.

I agree. The former was aesthetic perfection most of the time to coin cali's words and the latter is mostly fugly as ****.

 

[Front242]

Quick maths lesson but 17 is > 14.

 

[Fiero425]

Because he never came close to it before or after. It was not a level he could maintain particularly his serve and backhand. And with that he's beaten guys who generally excel off of clay more than he has. I'm not sure why this got everyone's panties in a bunch.

OK...so how does that mean he overachieved? The word you're looking for is "improved."

Dude he isn't Del Potro. He reached that level before on hards in 2010 when he had won it. Yes, it's nothing he could sustain but his natural level on the surface isn't THAT far below, as evidenced by him reaching the final in 2011 after clobbering Murray and only losing to an inspired Djokovic, and him reaching 2 other AO finals other than the one he won. You're making it sound like he fluked out a performance well above his level that was out of the blue. He had been playing that way on hards all year.

And what about 5 consecutive Wimbledon finals? He did it for 5 years. Was that not sustained enough or did he have to do it for another half a decade?

Not to be argumentative, but I looked at it another way by ranting how disappointed I was in the tour allowing this dominance to someone playing so defensively! These upsets in the last 3 years of Nadal at Wimbledon is something I expected long before the decade even began! I've called players gutless trying to slug it out from the baseline like Ferrer, Almagro, Berdych, Tsonga, and all the rest against the elites! They played right into their hands again and again, choking like dogs with multiple MP's, serving for it, or missing sitters to all but eliminate Federer, Nadal, or Djokovic! I can go on and on with examples like Tsonga with 4 MP's against Nole a few years ago in Paris! This 2nd and 3rd tier just don't know how to finish like past generations; sorta like a Nalbandian or Daydenko who took advantage of opportunities and won Masters' titles unexpected! :nono :angel: :dodgy::dodgy: