No reason to be overly optimistic about Djokovic at Roland Garros.....

[Fiero425]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

So Nadal has been in decline since 2011? That's a bit too convenient of an argument. Novak took him to 5 in 2013 alone, which was one of the best years Rafa had.

Nole's been his toughest opponent the last 3 years, but in 2013, well, shoulda been done in four. I think Rafa at his most rampant, Nole would be lucky to get a set (kinda like 2012 when they played on in a swamp :cover ). We shouldn't forget how great Rafa can be on this surface, even if this season and last he's been relatively dire going into RG. Still, last year Nole only took a set off him, and that wasn't peak Rafa...

Since 2011 Novak leads the h2h on clay 5-4 including 4 straightset wins. You're selling Novak short by a large margin.

I watch those Nole victories in Madrid, Rome, and Monte Carlo over and over again! A chink in Rafa's armor appeared, but repaired in time to win RG each time afterwards! :nono :angel: :dodgy:

 

[Denis]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

Nole's been his toughest opponent the last 3 years, but in 2013, well, shoulda been done in four. I think Rafa at his most rampant, Nole would be lucky to get a set (kinda like 2012 when they played on in a swamp :cover ). We shouldn't forget how great Rafa can be on this surface, even if this season and last he's been relatively dire going into RG. Still, last year Nole only took a set off him, and that wasn't peak Rafa...

Since 2011 Novak leads the h2h on clay 5-4 including 4 straightset wins. You're selling Novak short by a large margin.

I watch those Nole victories in Madrid, Rome, and Monte Carlo over and over again! A chink in Rafa's armor appeared, but repaired in time to win RG each time afterwards! :nono :angel: :dodgy:

Me too Fiero. Especially the 2011 ones! Thank you YouTube.

 

[Kieran]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

Since 2011 Novak leads the h2h on clay 5-4 including 4 straightset wins. You're selling Novak short by a large margin.

Since 2011, Rafa leads him 3-0 in Paris. I think you're selling Rafa a lot short by suggesting that Nole could beat peak Rafa at RG...

EDIT: And doesn't Rafa have two other wins, both in straights?

Come on, buddy, we can haggle this one all night, but what Nole has done in Madrid, MC and Rome hasn't meant diddly squat in Paris...

 

[Front242]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

Since 2011 Novak leads the h2h on clay 5-4 including 4 straightset wins. You're selling Novak short by a large margin.

Since 2011, Rafa leads him 3-0 in Paris. I think you're selling Rafa a lot short by suggesting that Nole could beat peak Rafa at RG...

And saying Novak would only win a measly set is a bit out there too!

 

[Denis]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

Since 2011 Novak leads the h2h on clay 5-4 including 4 straightset wins. You're selling Novak short by a large margin.

Since 2011, Rafa leads him 3-0 in Paris. I think you're selling Rafa a lot short by suggesting that Nole could beat peak Rafa at RG...

Novak has grossly underachieved at RG. You're saying he was lucky to win sets. :s

If you beat Rafa at Rome twice, you should do a whole lot better than what he has done after.

 

[Kieran]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

Since 2011 Novak leads the h2h on clay 5-4 including 4 straightset wins. You're selling Novak short by a large margin.

Since 2011, Rafa leads him 3-0 in Paris. I think you're selling Rafa a lot short by suggesting that Nole could beat peak Rafa at RG...

Novak has grossly underachieved at RG. You're saying he was lucky to win sets. :s

If you beat Rafa at Rome twice, you should do a whole lot better than what he has done after.

Just to correct your maths, they're 5-5 on clay from 2011 on, with Nole winning great victories, no question - and Rafa taking the big one each time they met there.

I'm not slagging Nole - and I certainly don't think he's under-achieved in Paris, though he was unlucky maybe a couple of years to be in Rafa's half, and not Roger's - but come on, you stretched credibility a bit thin earlier by saying Nole would beat peak Rafa at RG.

Admit it now, I'll tell no-one...

 

[Denis]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

Since 2011, Rafa leads him 3-0 in Paris. I think you're selling Rafa a lot short by suggesting that Nole could beat peak Rafa at RG...

Novak has grossly underachieved at RG. You're saying he was lucky to win sets. :s

If you beat Rafa at Rome twice, you should do a whole lot better than what he has done after.

Just to correct your maths, they're 5-5 on clay from 2011 on, with Nole winning great victories, no question - and Rafa taking the big one each time they met there.

I'm not slagging Nole - and I certainly don't think he's under-achieved in Paris, though he was unlucky maybe a couple of years to be in Rafa's half, and not Roger's - but come on, you stretched credibility a bit thin earlier by saying Nole would beat peak Rafa at RG.

Admit it now, I'll tell no-one...

Are you kidding me? Roger Ending up in Novaks half in 2011 was the worst thing that could have happened with the draw:huh:

Considering Novak's record on clay in the tourneys leading up to RG, it's as plain as daylight that Novak underachieved at RG.

 

[Kieran]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

Considering Novak's record on clay in the tourneys leading up to RG, it's as plain as daylight that Novak underachieved against Nadal.

To be honest, Nole has had 2011, where he was scary great (but didn't even reach the final in Paris), and then, what? When did he underachieve? Rafa straight-setted him twice in 2012, and they met only once in 2013 - after which Rafa bagged both Madrid and Rome -and once in 2014, which went to 3.

I think you have to factor in that Rafa has become specialist in peaking for Paris, and also his prohibitive record there. It's barmy, and unfair to Rafa, to suggest that anybody else is the default setting in Paris, and could beat Rafa there at his peak. He's played there for ten years, and won 9 of them...

 

[Denis]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

Considering Novak's record on clay in the tourneys leading up to RG, it's as plain as daylight that Novak underachieved against Nadal.

To be honest, Nole has had 2011, where he was scary great (but didn't even reach the final in Paris), and then, what? When did he underachieve? Rafa straight-setted him twice in 2012, and they met only once in 2013 - after which Rafa bagged both Madrid and Rome -and once in 2014, which went to 3.

I think you have to factor in that Rafa has become specialist in peaking for Paris, and also his prohibitive record there. It's barmy, and unfair to Rafa, to suggest that anybody else is the default setting in Paris, and could beat Rafa there at his peak. He's played there for ten years, and won 9 of them...

It's 5-2 in Novaks favour on clay since 2011 outside RG. That means that not winning a single match against Nadal at RG is underachieving. It's not Nadal peaking, although he has the benefit that it's usually a bit hotter when the RG final is played.

 

[Front242]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

Considering Novak's record on clay in the tourneys leading up to RG, it's as plain as daylight that Novak underachieved against Nadal.

To be honest, Nole has had 2011, where he was scary great (but didn't even reach the final in Paris), and then, what? When did he underachieve? Rafa straight-setted him twice in 2012, and they met only once in 2013 - after which Rafa bagged both Madrid and Rome -and once in 2014, which went to 3.

I think you have to factor in that Rafa has become specialist in peaking for Paris, and also his prohibitive record there. It's barmy, and unfair to Rafa, to suggest that anybody else is the default setting in Paris, and could beat Rafa there at his peak. He's played there for ten years, and won 9 of them...

By his standards Rafa was pretty damn shite in the RG final last year and said himself he was probably gonna lose if the match went to a 5th set. That 4th set was one of the most bizarre unwatchable fiascos I've ever witnessed in a tennis match, with one guy wrecked from puking due to some virus and the other hunched over. So yes, Novak underachieved there but being sick didn't help obviously.

Personally I wasn't one bit impressed with Nadal at RG '2011 either and a bit cleaner play from Roger and even he could've done a lot better in that final. He was all over him in set 1 and made a monkey out of him to race ahead to 5-2. Back to Novak and 2012 he double faulted away set 1 and the match just like in Rome the month before and was pretty dire in the first 2 sets so that was clearly well below par. Nadal didn't even have to do much to win that match. Sure the rain in set 3 was a setback but they shouldn't have played on anyway but Novak wasn't great in the 4th set there either. I don't personally think Nadal peaked for RG in the matches he played against Novak since 2012. He just did what was necessary to win against a guy, who luckily for him, didn't play anywhere close to his best.

And for the record, the biggest underachiever against Nadal in best of 5 on clay is Roger who is the only guy on tour to have held 2 match points in best of 5 on clay at Rome '06. Apart from Soderling, who is sadly no longer playing, no one else has come close to holding 2 match points against Nadal on clay in best of 5. Soderling must be disgusted he can't play any longer seeing the performances out there now from Nadal btw.

 

[Denis]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

Considering Novak's record on clay in the tourneys leading up to RG, it's as plain as daylight that Novak underachieved against Nadal.

To be honest, Nole has had 2011, where he was scary great (but didn't even reach the final in Paris), and then, what? When did he underachieve? Rafa straight-setted him twice in 2012, and they met only once in 2013 - after which Rafa bagged both Madrid and Rome -and once in 2014, which went to 3.

I think you have to factor in that Rafa has become specialist in peaking for Paris, and also his prohibitive record there. It's barmy, and unfair to Rafa, to suggest that anybody else is the default setting in Paris, and could beat Rafa there at his peak. He's played there for ten years, and won 9 of them...

By his standards Rafa was pretty damn shite in the RG final last year and said himself he was probably gonna lose if the match went to a 5th set. That 4th set was one of the most bizarre unwatchable fiascos I've ever witnessed in a tennis match, with one guy wrecked from puking due to some virus and the other hunched over. So yes, Novak underachieved there but being sick didn't help obviously.

Personally I wasn't one bit impressed with Nadal at RG '2011 either and a bit cleaner play from Roger and even he could've done a lot better in that final. He was all over him in set 1 and made a monkey out of him to race ahead to 5-2. Back to Novak and 2012 he double faulted away set 1 and the match just like in Rome the month before and was pretty dire in the first 2 sets so that was clearly well below par. Nadal didn't even have to do much to win that match. Sure the rain in set 3 was a setback but they shouldn't have played on anyway but Novak wasn't great in the 4th set there either. I don't personally think Nadal peaked for RG in the matches he played against Novak since 2012. He just did what was necessary to win against a guy, who luckily for him, didn't play anywhere close to his best.

I have to agree with this, sadly enough.

 

[Kieran]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

It's 5-2 in Novaks favour on clay since 2011 outside RG. That means that not winning a single match against Nadal at RG is underachieving. It's not Nadal peaking, although he has the benefit that it's usually a bit hotter when the RG final is played.

RG isn't the same as Rome or Madrid, you know this. At the end, there's one big tourney, and it's 3-0 for Rafa there since 2011 (with 4 RG titles in total).

This tells the much bigger story...

 

[Riotbeard]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

It's 5-2 in Novaks favour on clay since 2011 outside RG. That means that not winning a single match against Nadal at RG is underachieving. It's not Nadal peaking, although he has the benefit that it's usually a bit hotter when the RG final is played.

RG isn't the same as Rome or Madrid, you know this. At the end, there's one big tourney, and it's 3-0 for Rafa there since 2011 (with 4 RG titles in total).

This tells the much bigger story...

You're both being a bit fanboyish here. Neither Rafa nor Novak have produced their best tennis against each other (Over the entire match) at RG in the last couple of years. Of course, Rafa is the favorite, but he has beaten a Novak there who played Terrific, nor did Rafa play great. RG is different, but there isn't a good reason, that Novak can be really competitive on clay against Rafa in Rome and MC, and look mediocre at RG.

Although, I will give some slack to Kieran. Your boy got embarrassed today, so it's fair to be a bit tribal for your guy.

 

[Kieran]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

Although, I will give some slack to Kieran. Your boy got embarrassed today, so it's fair to be a bit tribal for your guy.

He looked like he'd banged his head beforehand and was trying to figger out which end of the stick was the handle, at times.

But still, when it comes to RG, he's usually a different sort of animal. Will that happen this year? We can only wait and see. I admire Nole much more than Roger in this regard, that he's always tried to improve his game to beat Rafa in the big ones. Roger more or less didn't bother with all that stuff. Seemed like too much hard work. Surely Rafa would wake up some day and be dazzled by all the aesthetic beauty that's going on, etc...

 

[Fiero425]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

Although, I will give some slack to Kieran. Your boy got embarrassed today, so it's fair to be a bit tribal for your guy.

He looked like he'd banged his head beforehand and was trying to figger out which end of the stick was the handle, at times.

But still, when it comes to RG, he's usually a different sort of animal. Will that happen this year? We can only wait and see. I admire Nole much more than Roger in this regard, that he's always tried to improve his game to beat Rafa in the big ones. Roger more or less didn't bother with all that stuff. Seemed like too much hard work. Surely Rafa would wake up some day and be dazzled by all the aesthetic beauty that's going on, etc...

Like I've said for years, it's the gutless ATP tour you have to blame for allowing one player to win a title that many times! You can say the same thing happened with Nole at AO and Federer at Wimbledon and the USO! The "also-rans" of the ATP are the ones more responsible for this kind of domination at major events! They're a lot more athletic and skilled than past eras, but something's obviously wrong in the heads of these guys to allow this to go on year after year; season after season! There's a crack in the lock started last season with Wawrinka, Cilic, and Kei making USO final keep the "Big 4" on the sideline for a change, but so far Djokovic has owned everyone! Someone posted that instead of the "Big 4," maybe it s/b "The Big 1"+3, and all the rest! :angel: :dodgy:

 

[Front242]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

I don't think the players are necessarily more athletic and skilled than past eras, rather there have been major increases in the whole area of science that's making them fitter than they actually are.

 

[tented]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

Of course, Rafa is the favorite, but he has beaten a Novak there who played Terrific, nor did Rafa play great.

Did you mean "Of course, Rafa is the favorite, but he hasn't beaten a Novak there who played Terrific, nor did Rafa play great."

 

[Moxie]

RE: BARCELONA ATP 500 - 20th April to 26th April

Considering Novak's record on clay in the tourneys leading up to RG, it's as plain as daylight that Novak underachieved against Nadal.

To be honest, Nole has had 2011, where he was scary great (but didn't even reach the final in Paris), and then, what? When did he underachieve? Rafa straight-setted him twice in 2012, and they met only once in 2013 - after which Rafa bagged both Madrid and Rome -and once in 2014, which went to 3.

I think you have to factor in that Rafa has become specialist in peaking for Paris, and also his prohibitive record there. It's barmy, and unfair to Rafa, to suggest that anybody else is the default setting in Paris, and could beat Rafa there at his peak. He's played there for ten years, and won 9 of them...

By his standards Rafa was pretty damn shite in the RG final last year and said himself he was probably gonna lose if the match went to a 5th set. That 4th set was one of the most bizarre unwatchable fiascos I've ever witnessed in a tennis match, with one guy wrecked from puking due to some virus and the other hunched over. So yes, Novak underachieved there but being sick didn't help obviously.

Personally I wasn't one bit impressed with Nadal at RG '2011 either and a bit cleaner play from Roger and even he could've done a lot better in that final. He was all over him in set 1 and made a monkey out of him to race ahead to 5-2. Back to Novak and 2012 he double faulted away set 1 and the match just like in Rome the month before and was pretty dire in the first 2 sets so that was clearly well below par. Nadal didn't even have to do much to win that match. Sure the rain in set 3 was a setback but they shouldn't have played on anyway but Novak wasn't great in the 4th set there either. I don't personally think Nadal peaked for RG in the matches he played against Novak since 2012. He just did what was necessary to win against a guy, who luckily for him, didn't play anywhere close to his best.

And for the record, the biggest underachiever against Nadal in best of 5 on clay is Roger who is the only guy on tour to have held 2 match points in best of 5 on clay at Rome '06. Apart from Soderling, who is sadly no longer playing, no one else has come close to holding 2 match points against Nadal on clay in best of 5. Soderling must be disgusted he can't play any longer seeing the performances out there now from Nadal btw.

I have to back up my brother Kieran here, as you guys are rewriting history, just a bit. Last year's final was far from their best match, as we all know, but it makes me chuckle that you, Front, who doesn't believe another word that Rafa ever says, quote him that he was lucky not to have to play a 5th set. It's easy enough to be magnanimous when you won in 4. There is no way to know what might have happened had it gone 5, except that history favors Nadal.

It's too much to say that Novak has underachieved against Rafa on clay. Nadal has the greatest winning percentage on the surface in history. Djokovic has done well. When he hasn't done well, specifically at RG, folks put it down to him, not to Rafa's abilities at that venue. This is selling Nadal short, though I expect nothing less of you, as that is your standard position. I do expect more of a few others. If everything were really on Novak and Roger's racquets v. Nadal at RG, they'd have taken at least one each from him by now. 9 French Open titles doesn't happen by being the default beneficiary of others' poor performances. (One can. See: Gaudio.)

 

[mrzz]

Think that you're all discussing apples and oranges, since it all started with a comment from Denisovich saying that peak Djokovic would beat peak Nadal at RG. As we are talking about peak, the number of titles, as oddly as it may seem, does not matter, at least not much.

What we already now is that non-peak Nadal versus non-peak Djokovic at Roland Garros is completely unbalanced in Nadal's favour. But we may never now what would have happened in a peak vs peak situation, as the closest thing to this would be the 2011 final (even if Nadal fans can arguably say that he was not at his best). A 2015 final, or match, would feature an obvious non peak Nadal, so this discussion may go on forever.

I completely understand the stronghold that Kieran and Moxie will make to stay with the facts, but this discussion is hypothetical by definition, so the non RG matches won by Djokovic are clearly part of the argument.

In this hypothetical match, without taking into account the psychological aspects (and I don't know if I should, as we are talking about "peak" performances, and maybe these two fellows at their peaks simply have no doubts on their minds), I must admit I give a small edge to Djokovic.

Of course average Djokovic against average Nadal, or even bottom Djokovic vs bottom Nadal, simply admits no discussion (at RG), at least untill now.

 

[Moxie]

It's 5-2 in Novaks favour on clay since 2011 outside RG. That means that not winning a single match against Nadal at RG is underachieving. It's not Nadal peaking, although he has the benefit that it's usually a bit hotter when the RG final is played.

RG isn't the same as Rome or Madrid, you know this. At the end, there's one big tourney, and it's 3-0 for Rafa there since 2011 (with 4 RG titles in total).

This tells the much bigger story...

You're both being a bit fanboyish here. Neither Rafa nor Novak have produced their best tennis against each other (Over the entire match) at RG in the last couple of years. Of course, Rafa is the favorite, but he hasn't beaten a Novak there who played Terrific, nor did Rafa play great. RG is different, but there isn't a good reason, that Novak can be really competitive on clay against Rafa in Rome and MC, and look mediocre at RG.

Although, I will give some slack to Kieran. Your boy got embarrassed today, so it's fair to be a bit tribal for your guy.

(If fixed your quote here, via Tented's.) Sorry to double-post, but I think there is a valuable point in thinking that neither Djokovic nor Nadal has played their best tennis against each other at RG over the entire match. There is a reason for that: they are tough opponents of each other, and when one rises, the other goes down, a bit. Both psychologically, and in their tennis game. We've seen this at the AO and the USO, as well. Nadal prevails at RG because he has been, to this point, the better player on clay, and is more consistent. Djokovic won a mirror image of their 2013 SF in the AO final in 2012...up-and-down, very close, but the better player on the surface prevailed. It's possible that the most thrilling match they ever played was the 3-setter in Madrid '09. 5-setters are likely to have dips and troughs. That has been the case when Djokovic and Nadal play each other. You say there isn't a good reason that Nole can beat Rafa in best of 3 on clay and be so mediocre in best of 5 at RG. There is: Djokovic's game translates to all surfaces, but it's not a clay game, per se. To date, it works for best of 3, but not best of 5. In the long run, the better clay-courter prevails.