Nitto ATP Finals 2023, Turin, Italy

[El Dude]

Here's a weird possibility: If Novak plays first and beats Hurkacz 2-1, theoretically Sinner could lose to Rune and eliminate Novak. All three would be 2-1, but Novak would be 5-4, Sinner 4-3 (or 5-3) and Rune 5-1 (or 4-2), so Novak would have the worst set %.

That doesn't work if either Novak wins 2-0 or plays second. And of course I don't think Sinner would tank a match just to eliminate Novak...or would he?

 

[El Dude]

Thanks brother! Seems unfair to go by ranking. If a lower ranked player ties the world number one, there’s a moral victory. H2H? That’s even more bizarre. I’d rather they choose by points won, or double faults-aces. Or who made the crowd cheer loudest. The old clap-o-metre. If that still leaves them level, give us a look at their women.

I wonder if it ever came down to the most extreme choice?

I agree, but it is very unlikely to come to that. Not only would there have to be a three-way tie (Sinner lose, Rune and Novak win), but they'd have to be tied in set and game % first...very, very unlikely.

 

[Fiero425]

Technically speaking, what’s the way forward from here? If Rune beats Sinner and Novak beats Hurkacz, Sinner might be out?

Novak and Holger have to win, but that might not be enough for either? Or only one of them?

I didn't see this YEC as a cakewalk and warned the board, Novak's incentive to win isn't as high after taking 1 match to secure YE #1 ranking!

 

[tented]

Here's a weird possibility: If Novak plays first and beats Hurkacz 2-1, theoretically Sinner could lose to Rune and eliminate Novak. All three would be 2-1, but Novak would be 5-4, Sinner 4-3 (or 5-3) and Rune 5-1 (or 4-2), so Novak would have the worst set %.

That doesn't work if either Novak wins 2-0 or plays second. And of course I don't think Sinner would tank a match just to eliminate Novak...or would he?

 

[El Dude]

One of the reasons I love this tournament is how wonky the scoring is. Every set and even game matters. For instance, if Novak wins 2-0 vs Hurkacz and Sinner loses to Rune 1-2, they're in a three-way tie at 2-1 and 5-3 sets. It would therefore go to the second three-way tie-breaker, or game w-l.

Also, either Wikipedia is wrong or they awarded Rune two sets for his aborted match vs. Sissypuss. They have him listed at 3-2 for sets; he lost to Novak 1-2.

 

[rafanoy1992]

Even though Rune won in retirement, it actually hurts his games % won as if a player wins by retirement, the set % won is accounted for, but the games % won is disregarded.

So for example, let say:

Sinner 5-3 sets W/L
Djokovic 5-3 sets W/L
Rune 5-3 sets W/L

Then in that scenario, Rune will not advance due to his game % won against Tsitsipas is not counted.

 

[rafanoy1992]

One of the reasons I love this tournament is how wonky the scoring is. Every set and even game matters. For instance, if Novak wins 2-0 vs Hurkacz and Sinner loses to Rune 1-2, they're in a three-way tie at 2-1 and 5-3 sets. It would therefore go to the second three-way tie-breaker, or game w-l.

Also, either Wikipedia is wrong or they awarded Rune two sets for his aborted match vs. Sissypuss. They have him listed at 3-2 for sets; he lost to Novak 1-2.

Actually, El Dude, wikipedia is correct.

So, in the ATP official rulebook: If a player wins by retirement, they will count the win as two sets. So, in this case, Rune is 3-2 in sets % won right now. However, because Rune won by retirement, his games % won are not counted towards to stats.

 

[Moxie]

Thanks brother! Seems unfair to go by ranking. If a lower ranked player ties the world number one, there’s a moral victory. H2H? That’s even more bizarre. I’d rather they choose by points won, or double faults-aces. Or who made the crowd cheer loudest. The old clap-o-metre. If that still leaves them level, give us a look at their women.

I wonder if it ever came down to the most extreme choice?

Honestly, since this whole tournament is done by ranking, I don't think that's unfair.

 

[rafanoy1992]

Honestly, since this whole tournament is done by ranking, I don't think that's unfair.

Also, I would rather have it that way than let's say a coin flip to break a tiebreaker scenario.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

Sinner outplayed Djokovic from start to finish at his own game.

I think the question is now: Should Djokovic retire from tennis?

Please discuss.

 

[Fiero425]

Sinner outplayed Djokovic from start to finish at his own game.

I think the question is now: Should Djokovic retire from tennis?

Please discuss.

OMG, seek serious help! One loss & Novak's supposed to retire? You must be joking! GOOD ONE! Djokovic has won the YEC even w/ a RR loss!

 

[Nadalfan2013]

OMG, seek serious help! One loss & Novak's supposed to retire? You must be joking! GOOD ONE! Djokovic has won the YEC even w/ a RR loss!

Stop talking about the past. It’s over bro, Stick a fork in Djokovic, he is done!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I hope when the season is finished we will have our best matches of 2023,
Sinner v Djokovic will be on my list for certain ATP finals, round robin match
Sinner v Medvedev final in Vienna
Alcaraz winning at Queens
Alcaraz winning Wimbledon are just some matches on my list at present

 

[tented]

I hope when the season is finished we will have our best matches of 2023,
Sinner v Djokovic will be on my list for certain ATP finals, round robin match
Sinner v Medvedev final in Vienna
Alcaraz winning at Queens
Alcaraz winning Wimbledon are just some matches on my list at present

Alcaraz/Djokovic in Cincinnati final.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Alcaraz/Djokovic in Cincinnati final.

Thanks I forgot that one

 

[Moxie]

This is really spot on. His serve placement is smart (going out wide has been hugely successful — not speed, but placement), and he’s not panicking mid-point, which is so key against Novak. Not that Sinner isn’t making errors — he is. But they’re not errors of bad judgement. They’re “good errors” as Annacone would say.

I wanted to bring this post back up, which followed up on Margaret's. Sinner has made huge strides in the past year. He's starting to play so much more intelligently with all the talent that we've seen in him. Shout out to Cahill.

 

[rafanoy1992]

Cahill should be considered ATP Coach of the year for what he has done with Sinner this year. I do have a feeling that Shelton's coach (his dad?) will probably win due to meteoric rise from Shelton in 2023.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I wanted to bring this post back up, which followed up on Margaret's. Sinner has made huge strides in the past year. He's starting to play so much more intelligently with all the talent that we've seen in him. Shout out to Cahill.

After Sinner won in a 3 hour battle against Meddy in the final in Vienna,the improvements in his game were on show, not only his serve, but physically going toe to toe with Meddy for over 3 hours, both players were playing at a high level, I was impressed, in my opinion the best match he has played all year, again today in his match against Djokovic his mental strength when losing the 2nd set TB, he reset and won a well in the TB for the match
Yep shout out to Cahill, I was soo glad when he came into Janniks coaching team.

 

[rafanoy1992]

Anyways, BY FAR the biggest win of Sinner's career! Sinner and his team KNEW that the ultimate test of skill/lesson is to defeat Novak Djokovic. It is why when Sinner finally closed the match, you could tell he was relieved! He knew he needed to win the match instead of allowing Djokovic to win the match. This is the type of win that can finally instill great confidence to Sinner at Slams starting in 2024!

In addition, now that Sinner has beaten Djokovic, Cahill probably will tell his pupil just to remain healthy for Davis Cup AND start preparing for 2024 AO. In my opinion, while winning ATP Finals will be nice for Sinner, I think it will be better for him to focus on Davis Cup and prepare for the 2024 AO physically and mentally fit.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Well the ATP finals are still ongoing though I feel this bodes well for Sinner in 2024,
The AO will be interesting in 2024, hopefully Jannik can remain strong and healthy in January