Nadal owning Federer in the 2008 Roland Garros final.....

[Moxie]

Not your finest post...

You haven't even bothered to comment on this thread, and all I get is a face-palm from you? If you don't agree, make an actual argument. Otherwise, I don't think I'm the first person that deserves a snotty non-reponse from you. B-)

 

[Moxie]

how can you in good conscience try to get away with this when you get at DF for these types of observations?

Irony lost on you both.

 

[Busted]

10 reasons why Rafael nadal is goat 1. H2h 23-15 vs. Federer . 2. GS record 9-4 vs. Federer . 3. Winning all surfaces in the some season the only player to ever do this FO10,WC10,USO 10. 4.GS record 9-4 vs. Djokovic. 5. Roland garros, Wimbledon Double twice. 6. Two gold metals. 7. 2008 Wimbledon . 8. 10 FO titles . 9.oldest end year world number one. 10.golden career slam

LOL! Is that all you've got? Ever visit the Ultimate Tennis Statistics site?

Most Records - Federer - 251 - http://ultimatetennisstatistics.com/record?recordId=Records

My 252nd reason why Roger is the GOAT is because...he holds outright or is tied for the most records. Nadal is a distant 3rd and holds or is tied for 133 - most of them involving the word "clay." But...you go right ahead clinging to the H2H - which is mainly due to his 13-2 clay court record. Otherwise Federer now leads on other surfaces 13-10. And lest you forget - Roger 20 Grand Slams, Nadal 16 (10 of which involve that pesky word "clay" again).

Ooh...wait...I thought of another reason -

253 - Roger owns Nadal fans. You guys are more obsessed with Roger than his own fans are.

 

[Busted]

This has been discussed a lot before. The slowing down of play on some surfaces has helped Nadal.

I saw a quote from Mats Wilander the other day that's sure to drive Nadal fans crazy. He said that tournaments should speed up surfaces to encourage Federer to play even longer. Then of course some people were saying that wasn't fair to the other players. So my comment was - well, it wasn't fair to Roger when they slowed courts down in 2007 - in part because the previous 3 years he was winning everything. Sure, they said it was to encourage more rallies, but the net result was the ascension of Nadal and Djokovic to #1. And maybe if the courts were faster then more players would start coming forward again and tennis would become more interesting to casual fans.

 

[Moxie]

I saw a quote from Mats Wilander the other day that's sure to drive Nadal fans crazy. He said that tournaments should speed up surfaces to encourage Federer to play even longer. Then of course some people were saying that wasn't fair to the other players. So my comment was - well, it wasn't fair to Roger when they slowed courts down in 2007 - in part because the previous 3 years he was winning everything. Sure, they said it was to encourage more rallies, but the net result was the ascension of Nadal and Djokovic to #1. And maybe if the courts were faster then more players would start coming forward again and tennis would become more interesting to casual fans.

I'm pretty sure that the slowing of the surfaces happened well before that. Before Nadal even turned pro. Most of Roger's career, or all. The process of slowing Wimbledon, for example, began in the 1990's to save grass from extinction, as it had gotten too one-strike and boring. I don't know what you mean about slowing the surfaces specifically in 2007.

 

[Andy22]

LOL! Is that all you've got? Ever visit the Ultimate Tennis Statistics site?

Most Records - Federer - 251 - http://ultimatetennisstatistics.com/record?recordId=Records

My 252nd reason why Roger is the GOAT is because...he holds outright or is tied for the most records. Nadal is a distant 3rd and holds or is tied for 133 - most of them involving the word "clay." But...you go right ahead clinging to the H2H - which is mainly due to his 13-2 clay court record. Otherwise Federer now leads on other surfaces 13-10. And lest you forget - Roger 20 Grand Slams, Nadal 16 (10 of which involve that pesky word "clay" again).

Ooh...wait...I thought of another reason -

253 - Roger owns Nadal fans. You guys are more obsessed with Roger than his own fans are.

lol Federer had 5 extra seasons so I think its good to judge nadal yet. Also beaten federer 4 times in a row, on non-clay surfaces slams yea I think nadal owns Federer in GS. 9-3

 

[DarthFed]

lol Federer had 5 extra seasons so I think its good to judge nadal yet. Also beaten federer 4 times in a row, on non-clay surfaces slams yea I think nadal owns Federer in GS. 9-3

Too bad tennis is played against a field and not one guy. Roger is way more dominant overall and that's why he has double the records. That won't change. Rafa has to hope he can win enough RG's to take over the slam record, the one that counts the most. Certainly counts more than a H2H

 

[DarthFed]

Federer has more top spin than Djokovic, generally, and sometimes more than Nadal on his BH. I consider this to be lower-risk. I'm not saying it's a bad thing. If you have a different definition, I'll be happy to hear it, and try to leave off the condescension. I actually do think that Novak has more of a tendency to flatten out and go for broke than Roger. I consider that to be high-risk.

We know you weren't saying this as an insult to Roger. Instead I've seen you insult Nole before saying he swings from the hip and gets lucky. Those comments often came after a demolition of Nadal.

High risk play like everything else can be subjective and topspin vs. flat shots is just one aspect to consider. Roger is said to play with the most spin on average aside from Nadal and maybe Sock but I think you know it'd be crazy to suggest his game is the 2nd least risky on tour. With Fed the high risk is that he looks to take nearly everything early, I mean the guy hits a stupid % of half volleys from the baseline and then when you factor in how aggressive he can be from pretty much any position and it's easy to see how high-risk his play is. He can pull it off because...he has the talent to do it. I feel the high risk of Nole's game is that he consistently plays with great depth and he can change the direction of the ball with the greatest ease. He goes down the line off either wing probably more than anyone. But Nole's forehand has been pretty spinny for awhile while the backhand is often a laser. Again he can pull this off due to his talent but the average player can not change the direction like that and of course his backhand may be the best the sport has seen.

 

[Busted]

Please note above that the bold was not my choice, as it wasn't in my post. I don't know what that happened.

I agree that Roger's serve is better and helps him more. Roger is an excellent volleyer, but Nadal is very fine. I've noted Nadal's finishing at the net, and Nadal has great drop shots, which he also uses to finish points. Arguably Nadal's are better from farther from the net. Don't start with the forehand, as they both have world-class ones. Nadal's BH has improved and has long been stronger than Federer's. I agree on Roger's DTL BH...as better, but not a shot that Rafa doesn't have. I would also argue that Rafa's running forehand is a better shot, and he's a better passer than Roger. Both are great and reliable at the smash, and I think they're equal on the lob, which they don't use as much as someone like Murray, for example, who has a great one. Oh, and Roger has the more successful tweener. LOL. But if you take my point, it's not like Roger has so many shots that Rafa doesn't have. He may be better at some, but Rafa is better at others. It seems a fallacy to say that Roger has way more variety than Rafa.

Shots Roger has that Nadal doesn't? One of my all-time favorite Federer videos on YT is called "Every Shot In the book." It's not just about strokes - but the creativeness and the ability to invent shots on the fly. That's the variety that Roger has that Nadal doesn't. In the David Foster Wallace piece on Federer it's what he referred to as "Federer Moments" -

Almost anyone who loves tennis and follows the men’s tour on television has, over the last few years, had what might be termed Federer Moments. These are times, as you watch the young Swiss play, when the jaw drops and eyes protrude and sounds are made that bring spouses in from other rooms to see if you’re O.K.​

 

[Busted]

lol Federer had 5 extra seasons so I think its good to judge nadal yet. Also beaten federer 4 times in a row, on non-clay surfaces slams yea I think nadal owns Federer in GS. 9-3

Listen, if Nadal's body lasts another 2 years I'll be shocked - let alone 5 years. He's had 2 different injuries just since October.

 

[Busted]

I'm pretty sure that the slowing of the surfaces happened well before that. Before Nadal even turned pro. Most of Roger's career, or all. The process of slowing Wimbledon, for example, began in the 1990's to save grass from extinction, as it had gotten too one-strike and boring. I don't know what you mean about slowing the surfaces specifically in 2007.

My recollection is Wimbledon's grass courts were slowed down around 2002 - but they weren't as slow as they are now. I remember they took up all the courts and changed to a different type of grass after Ivanisevic dropped 40 aces on Pat Rafter. And hard courts were slowed down gradually to the speed they are now but the biggest shift occurred around 2007 or 2008 when AO moved from Rebound Ace.to Plelxicushion. IIRC a year or so earlier the US Open moved from Plexicushion to DecoTurf and the courts were slowed down even further. Ironically the US Open played slower this year than the AO and DecoTurf is supposed to be the faster of the two surfaces.

 

[Andy22]

Listen, if Nadal's body lasts another 2 years I'll be shocked - let alone 5 years. He's had 2 different injuries just since October.

Yea everyone's been say that for ,10 years and nadal still here, so well see I think Nadal well retiring then he wants to. Not because of injury

 

[Andy22]

Shots Roger has that Nadal doesn't? One of my all-time favorite Federer videos on YT is called "Every Shot In the book." It's not just about strokes - but the creativeness and the ability to invent shots on the fly. That's the variety that Roger has that Nadal doesn't. In the David Foster Wallace piece on Federer it's what he referred to as "Federer Moments" -

Almost anyone who loves tennis and follows the men’s tour on television has, over the last few years, had what might be termed Federer Moments. These are times, as you watch the young Swiss play, when the jaw drops and eyes protrude and sounds are made that bring spouses in from other rooms to see if you’re O.K.​

Yea right I seen Nadal do everyone of those shots at least once keep dreaming.

 

[Moxie]

We know you weren't saying this as an insult to Roger. Instead I've seen you insult Nole before saying he swings from the hip and gets lucky. Those comments often came after a demolition of Nadal.

High risk play like everything else can be subjective and topspin vs. flat shots is just one aspect to consider. Roger is said to play with the most spin on average aside from Nadal and maybe Sock but I think you know it'd be crazy to suggest his game is the 2nd least risky on tour. With Fed the high risk is that he looks to take nearly everything early, I mean the guy hits a stupid % of half volleys from the baseline and then when you factor in how aggressive he can be from pretty much any position and it's easy to see how high-risk his play is. He can pull it off because...he has the talent to do it. I feel the high risk of Nole's game is that he consistently plays with great depth and he can change the direction of the ball with the greatest ease. He goes down the line off either wing probably more than anyone. But Nole's forehand has been pretty spinny for awhile while the backhand is often a laser. Again he can pull this off due to his talent but the average player can not change the direction like that and of course his backhand may be the best the sport has seen.

You're right...I wouldn't say that his game is anything like the 2nd least risky on tour. It's helpful when you talk about taking the ball early. I can get that.

And while I have never shied away from taking a crack at Novak, no insult was given or intended. I have never said he's lucky in what he's done...I'm the last person that says the great champions don't make their own luck. To my eye, though, he does hit with a lot of depth, paints the lines, and when his timing or confidence is off, he can miss. But I will also say that he can be incredibly brave when his back is against the wall. I don't consider that mere ball-bashing. He's got cojones in the clutch.

 

[Andy22]

Well I would say nadal a better volleyer than Federer, if watch the USO last year final vs. K.Anderson Nadal was 16/16 at the net. Also, Nadal has a better backhand, his shots just a little better than Federer on hard courts and clay. Also Nadal was a better hard court player in these seasons 2009,2010,2011 2012 2013,2014,2017.

 

[DarthFed]

He was better on HC than Fed last year??? Do you type this clownish stuff and hope no one will correct you?

He also wasn't better on HC in 2010, 2011, 2012, or 2014. Roger won an MS and YEC on HC in 2010 and 2011 and they each won 1 major on HC in 2010, none in 2011. 2012 Roger won IW and Cincy. The only edge you could give Nadal is making AO final instead of semis. 2014 again the only thing Rafa did on HC was make the AO final. Roger won Cincy, made YEC final and a couple other MS finals.

Rafa and Roger use the net very differently, the latter comes in a lot while the former only finishes off putaway shots there. I also disagree that Nadal has the better backhand both now and historically. Rafa has much better passing shots and more consistency but his backhand for much of his career has just been a neutral shot. Roger's is much more versatile and for many seasons it has been lethal. It gets a bad rep because of Nadal's topspin and also there were a few seasons it flat out sucked. But it's JMO, both of their backhands suit their games well I'd say.

 

[Andy22]

He was better on HC than Fed last year??? Do you type this clownish stuff and hope no one will correct you?

He also wasn't better on HC in 2010, 2011, 2012, or 2014. Roger won an MS and YEC on HC in 2010 and 2011 and they each won 1 major on HC in 2010, none in 2011. 2012 Roger won IW and Cincy. The only edge you could give Nadal is making AO final instead of semis. 2014 again the only thing Rafa did on HC was make the AO final. Roger won Cincy, made YEC final and a couple other MS finals.

Rafa and Roger use the net very differently, the latter comes in a lot while the former only finishes off putaway shots there. I also disagree that Nadal has the better backhand both now and historically. Rafa has much better passing shots and more consistency but his backhand for much of his career has just been a neutral shot. Roger's is much more versatile and for many seasons it has been lethal. It gets a bad rep because of Nadal's topspin and also there were a few seasons it flat out sucked. But it's JMO, both of their backhands suit their games well I'd say.

Well 2009 Nadal win A0, Federer won 0, 2011, 2 Grand slam finals, Federer 2 semis nadal better. 2013, Nadal 3 masters titles, USO title, Federer sucked just one semi A0. 2012 Nadal just a little better A0 final, federer semi final. 2017 Nadal USO title, final A0, Federer A0 title, Qrt finals USO again Nadal just a little better. So that's 6 seasons Nadal had been a better player. Nadal also 4-0 vs federer 2013

 

[DarthFed]

Well 2009 Nadal win A0, Federer won 0, 2011, 2 Grand slam finals, Federer 2 semis nadal better. 2013, Nadal 3 masters titles, USO title, Federer sucked just one semi A0. 2012 Nadal just a little better A0 final, federer semi final. 2017 Nadal USO title, final A0, Federer A0 title, Qrt finals USO again Nadal just a little better. So that's 6 seasons Nadal had been a better player. Nadal also 4-0 vs federer 2013

Ah so now it is only majors. I can see why Rafa fans don't want to include YEC but they are usually all about the importance of MS events

We agree that 2009 Rafa was better on HC because he won a major. But those other years I mentioned they won the same amount of HC majors (1 or 0) and thus the tiebreak those years would be YEC and MS events. Also your data is always wrong and I will always correct you. In 2010 and 2011 Rafa made the QF at AO. And at the USO in 2011 Roger just ran into Djoker one round earlier than Nadal and while the latter got destroyed, Roger had Djokovic beat and let him off the mat.

Overall you can say Rafa has done slightly better on HC from 2009-present (4 majors to 3) but keep in mind we are talking a 23-31 year old vs a 28-36 year old. Of course Nadal should be doing way better on HC than grandpa but he hasn't. And when you throw in everything else aside from majors then Roger may get the nod even in that timeframe because he does have 2 YEC's and way more MS wins from 2009-2018.

 

[Federberg]

Ah so now it is only majors. I can see why Rafa fans don't want to include YEC but they are usually all about the importance of MS events

We agree that 2009 Rafa was better on HC because he won a major. But those other years I mentioned they won the same amount of HC majors (1 or 0) and thus the tiebreak those years would be YEC and MS events. Also your data is always wrong and I will always correct you. In 2010 and 2011 Rafa made the QF at AO. And at the USO in 2011 Roger just ran into Djoker one round earlier than Nadal and while the latter got destroyed, Roger had Djokovic beat and let him off the mat.

Overall you can say Rafa has done slightly better on HC from 2009-present (4 majors to 3) but keep in mind we are talking a 23-31 year old vs a 28-36 year old. Of course Nadal should be doing way better on HC than grandpa but he hasn't. And when you throw in everything else aside from majors then Roger may get the nod even in that timeframe because he does have 2 YEC's and way more MS wins from 2009-2018.

You know, I never even noticed how some Rafa fans talk about Rafa having more Master series titles than Roger and neglect the YEC which is worth at least 1.5 Master series. Good spot!

 

[atttomole]

Why is the YEC not considered an MS event? All along I thought it was part of the Master series.