Kyrgios's problem: skill, not on-court attitude

[Moxie]

It can be used in a racist/sexist/etc way, but the thing itself is not racist/sexist/etc per se. So, yes, context matters. But that is a subjective judgment. There are way too many assumptions from the use of the word "banged" to the conclusion "sexist".

Interesting that you pegged the word "banged." It is an aggressive word, but maybe it bothers men more than it does women.

 

[mrzz]

Interesting that you pegged the word "banged." It is an aggressive word, but maybe it bothers men more than it does women.

Since English is no my matter tongue, I am always with some degree of uncertainty to assess how offensive a words is. Honestly, it is a word I would use with friends if I wanted to brag about sexual encounters.

But, in this case, is there something else to peg? It is this word or the fact that he called attention to the sexual relation? Maybe there is something else and I don't remember (or did not pay enough attention).

 

[Moxie]

Since English is no my matter tongue, I am always with some degree of uncertainty to assess how offensive a words is. Honestly, it is a word I would use with friends if I wanted to brag about sexual encounters.

But, in this case, is there something else to peg? It is this word or the fact that he called attention to the sexual relation? Maybe there is something else and I don't remember (or did not pay enough attention).

I know what you mean about trying to weigh the weight of words that are not in your native language. Sometimes you get the meaning without knowing the full cultural/slang import. To me, "bang" is not even a word that a woman would use. Even "fuck" connotes more romance. It's incredibly crude, as a descriptor for the sex act. That said, I still think that of all the rudeness and crudeness and transgression of what Nick had to say in that match, I don't think he's calling out Vecic's sex life is any worse than talking about Kokkanikis's.

 

[Ricardo]

I'm not necessarily agreeing that it was sexist but I don't follow the logic here. So just because something is a fact, it can't be offensive/sexist/racist/etc...?

Context matters, and intentions matter (at least when they're clear). You can taunt a black guy about the history of his people. It's a fact. They were slaves. It doesn't make it any less racist. Obviously this is an extreme example but you know what I mean.

I don't think Kyrgios was willingly thinking he wanted to degrade women, or that particular woman, with his comment. But it's pretty telling as to his mentality (the old slut shaming, or treating women as conquests, etc...). I mean, that was pretty clear. So while I wouldn't be quick to label the comment as sexist, it's definitely insensitive, and not just rude.

nobody slut shamed anybody, this is just stupid as usual. In the heat of the moment, Nick wanted to retaliate at Stan for saying something...….and whatever he could come up with, he would say. There are museums and even items on the market that are related to the slaves of the past, racist? not surprised at all that you are vulnerable to cheap culture which is fashionable in recent years. sexist? mysogenist? slut-shaming? wow, fashionable buzz words for the herd....you are drawn to these cheap shit easily.

 

[Ricardo]

I know what you mean about trying to weigh the weight of words that are not in your native language. Sometimes you get the meaning without knowing the full cultural/slang import. To me, "bang" is not even a word that a woman would use. Even "fuck" connotes more romance. It's incredibly crude, as a descriptor for the sex act. That said, I still think that of all the rudeness and crudeness and transgression of what Nick had to say in that match, I don't think he's calling out Vecic's sex life is any worse than talking about Kokkanikis's.

Nick doesn't give a shit about Vecic but in that moment it was a convenient thing to insult Stan with, when he wanted to retaliate at him during the match....as rude and crude as possible. Some idiot says it's 'insensitive' for Nick to say that......since when is NK known for being delicate in handing out verbal abuse?

 

[britbox]

I think Kyrgios just meant to insult the person in front of him... as he does regularly. I don't think he discriminates who he lines up based on sex or race.

Vekic wasn't brought into it on the basis that she was a woman, it was purely because she was linked to Stan. Likewise, Delpo insulted Murray by bringing his mother into a verbal exchange.

 

[calitennis127]

All this pointless bullshit about Kyrgios and Wawrinka's girlfriend aside for the moment, last night's match was the perfect illustration of what I meant with my initial post in this thread about Kyrgios.....

With his height, serve, power, and relative quickness, there is no excuse for him to have such poor results. But the reason he has such poor results is that his ground game is severely lacking. The slew of wild errors, particularly off the backhand, are why he lost, and that kind of sloppiness/lack of skill development is why I have a hard time supporting him. He cannot sustain a high level from the back of the court, not because he is unathletic (obviously), but because his feet are constantly out of position and he makes routine errors.

That problem has nothing to do with having a bad attitude or cursing at umpires or making crude remarks. He could do all those things and win big if his ground game was consistent and his footwork in setting up his shots (particularly the backhand) was better. It really is a shame because he could take over the ATP if those skills were in order. But they're not, unfortunately.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

People still defending Kyrgios. I guess in a world like ours, he can actually become president one day. It's hard not to lose faith in humanity sometimes...

 

[calitennis127]

People still defending Kyrgios. I guess in a world like ours, he can actually become president one day. It's hard not to lose faith in humanity sometimes...

At least Trump and Kyrgios have not been credibly accused with rape by multiple women like Bill Clinton was, or with chronic sexual assault like the Clintons' close friends Weinstein and Epstein. I also don't believe Kyrgios ever said "fuck that b***h" about a woman who accused him of sexual assault like Democrat Justin Fairfax of Virginia did.

But I doubt you know anything about that.

 

[calitennis127]

Nick doesn't give a shit about Vecic but in that moment it was a convenient thing to insult Stan with, when he wanted to retaliate at him during the match....as rude and crude as possible. Some idiot says it's 'insensitive' for Nick to say that......since when is NK known for being delicate in handing out verbal abuse?

It is quite ironic, to say the least, to see Moxie and Broken be so self-righteous about this issue. What Kyrgios said about Wawrinka's girlfriend was nothing out of the ordinary in the NBA/NFL culture (just look up the Carmelo-Kevin Garnett spat at Madison Square Garden over Carmelo's wife at the time). The reason Moxie is so disturbed by this is that she is totally unfamiliar with the culture that shapes Kyrgios's mind and attitude.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

At least Trump and Kyrgios have not been credibly accused with rape by multiple women like Bill Clinton was, or with chronic sexual assault like the Clintons' close friends Weinstein and Epstein. I also don't believe Kyrgios ever said "fuck that b***h" about a woman who accused him of sexual assault like Democrat Justin Fairfax of Virginia did.

But I doubt you know anything about that.

Who said that I like the Clintons? Would it make sense to bring up Hitler to make Weinstein look better? You're all over the place. Kyrgios has zero class and has shown disgusting, violent and offensive behavior over and over. It has nothing to do with anything else. I'm just saying that despite all of that Kyrgios could still become president cause you'd have half of the population making excuses for him. I'm glad that Rublev gave him a cold handshake after he trashed him.

 

[calitennis127]

Who said that I like the Clintons? Do I need to bring up Hitler to make Weinstein look better? You're all over the place. Kyrgios has zero class and has shown disgusting, violent and offensive behavior over and over. It has nothing to do with anything else. I'm just saying that despite all of that Kyrgios could still become president cause you'd have half of the population making excuses for him. I'm glad that Rublev gave him a cold handshake after he trashed him.

Why don't you accuse the blue-voting half of the United States for making excuses for Bill and Hillary Clinton for over 20 years when it came to issues of sexual assault? Why is it only in the past 3 years that "half of Americans" have been accused of not caring about sexual assault?

Oh wait, I know. It's because it is nothing more than a partisan hit job on Trump and that the Democrats don't really care about sexual assault. Anyone with a brain can see that the problem on their side of the aisle is far, far, far worse when it comes to the sexual abuse and mistreatment of women. And it isn't even close. The Trump-loathing media and Hollywood celebrities knew for over two decades about Weinstein's behavior and they excused it and allowed it to go on. And I highly doubt that if Hillary had won the election we would have heard about it because the media would have gone to every length possible to smother the story.

The only reason we're hearing about Americans making excuse for sexual assault now is because it is a talking point to hit at Trump. That's it.

As for Kyrgios, again, I will say the same thing to you that I've said about Moxie: you are clearly out-of-touch with the NBA/NFL-style musical culture that shapes Kyrgios's mind and attitude. So all of this catches you off guard.

But that doesn't change the reality that in that world he would hardly stand out for being this way. You guys simply are not used to it so you are taken aback by it. You have hypermasculinophobia. You need to tone it down and be less hypermasculinophobic.

 

[Nadalfan2013]

All you are doing is making excuses for Kyrgios and Trump by putting down other people! Grow up!

 

[calitennis127]

All you are doing is making excuses for Kyrgios and Trump by putting down other people! Grow up!

What "excuse" did I make for Trump? I said that he has not been credibly accused of rape the way that Bill Clinton was by multiple women or the way that Justin Fairfax has been. Can you please name the "excuse" that I made?

 

[Moxie]

Nick doesn't give a shit about Vecic but in that moment it was a convenient thing to insult Stan with, when he wanted to retaliate at him during the match....as rude and crude as possible. Some idiot says it's 'insensitive' for Nick to say that......since when is NK known for being delicate in handing out verbal abuse?

Oddly enough, Ricardo, you and I agree on this.

 

[Moxie]

Everyone is so up in arms about Donna Vecic, and her "honor" being slung around. No one has ever asked what this did to Kyrgios' friendship with Kokkinakis, the other harmed party in the thing. I've never read that Vecic and Kyrgios were friends, but we are very much given to believe that Kokkinakis and Nick are. If I were Vecic, I'd slug Nick in the face, tell him to go fuck himself and move on. But what if you were Kokkinakis? How would you feel about your friend making you such public 3rd-party fodder for a cheap shot during a high-profile match? Kind of ugly, from a "friend."

 

[brokenshoelace]

nobody slut shamed anybody, this is just stupid as usual. In the heat of the moment, Nick wanted to retaliate at Stan for saying something...….and whatever he could come up with, he would say. There are museums and even items on the market that are related to the slaves of the past, racist? not surprised at all that you are vulnerable to cheap culture which is fashionable in recent years. sexist? mysogenist? slut-shaming? wow, fashionable buzz words for the herd....you are drawn to these cheap shit easily.

Hey, you fucking idiot, learn to read. I said context and intentions matter. Therefore, if you say to a black man in a TAUNTING manner, that his people have been slaves, that is 100% racist. If you don't believe that then you're a bigger piece of shit than I thought. Now, if you agree that this is racist, then you also agree that you're an idiot who can't read because you misunderstood my post. Either way, shut the fuck up.

 

[Ricardo]

Hey, you fucking idiot, learn to read. I said context and intentions matter. Therefore, if you say to a black man in a TAUNTING manner, that his people have been slaves, that is 100% racist. If you don't believe that then you're a bigger piece of shit than I thought. Now, if you agree that this is racist, then you also agree that you're an idiot who can't read because you misunderstood my post. Either way, shut the fuck up.

oh wow, no need to be that upset that you are exposed for talking slut-shaming bs which is clearly wrong, and pretty idiotic. now since when did I give you permission to talk like that? I bloody own you in every post, sorry I pointed out your idiotic posts and hurt your ego in the process

in a taunting manner or not, nowadays if you say they have been slaves, racists labels would be thrown all around by idiots like you...….and you talk context? clearly that doesn't exist in your brain when you manage to relate slut-shaming to Nick's insult, yeah context, come again?

 

[brokenshoelace]

oh wow, no need to be that upset that you are exposed for talking slut-shaming bs which is clearly wrong, and pretty idiotic. now since when did I give you permission to talk like that? I bloody own you in every post, sorry I pointed out your idiotic posts and hurt your ego in the process

Imagine being an adult who talks like that...

 

[Ricardo]

Everyone is so up in arms about Donna Vecic, and her "honor" being slung around. No one has ever asked what this did to Kyrgios' friendship with Kokkinakis, the other harmed party in the thing. I've never read that Vecic and Kyrgios were friends, but we are very much given to believe that Kokkinakis and Nick are. If I were Vecic, I'd slug Nick in the face, tell him to go fuck himself and move on. But what if you were Kokkinakis? How would you feel about your friend making you such public 3rd-party fodder for a cheap shot during a high-profile match? Kind of ugly, from a "friend."

both Kokk and Vecic were used equally by Nick to retaliate at Stan. NK might have actually apologized after for dragging two innocent people into this, and they would have understood that NK had no intention of having a go at them. As far as I know, they havent had a fallout after.