Is Rafa in Decline?

Is Rafa in Decline?


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brokenshoelace

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Riotbeard said:
Broken_Shoelace said:
federberg said:
http://www.tennisworldusa.org/sergiy-stakhovsky-whenever-roger-federer-loses-all-say-that-he-is-finished-but-when-rafael-nadal-lost-articolo23922.html?

He sort of has a point out there in the public. But judging by some comments on here, maybe not!

Actually I don't understand his point. If people react differently it's because these are two different situations. People are more prepared to say Roger is done because he's much older and has been losing more and more frequently for years (not a couple of matches as Stakhovsky claims). With Rafa he was the king of clay as recently as last year and until he loses at RG again, people are hesitant, and rightly so. Anyway, I don't understand what he's trying to say. Are people harsh on Roger or does he think Nadal is done?

Regardless, we can at least all agree that Nadal has declined, so that's a start.

Rafa won RG last year, but he was hardly the king of clay compared to the rest of his career. He has not been the same player for a year and a half, and people do still talk like he is about to turn a corner. Maybe he is, but I get the point. People have been talking about Fed retiring since at least 2011...

That's kind the point though. If people are optimistic about Nadal now as Stakhovsky claims (even though I don't see the optimism, but whatever) it's because they panicked last year when Nadal went through something similar, and in the end, at the FO, he proved he was still the king of clay.

And i don't know who really thinks Nadal will turn a corner. He's not getting any younger or faster. He won't be playing this bad forever though.
 

brokenshoelace

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GameSetAndMath said:
"beginning of end" talk for Fed started in 2008.

"beginning of end" for Nadal started in 2009, following his tendinitis. That's not an exaggeration, everyone here can back me up on this. We were all on the old forums, there was a lot of speculation about whether he'd ever be the same. Of course then it happened again pretty much every year after that, including 2012, off of his 7 months layoff.
 

Denis

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Since this talk has not yet started for Novak (knocking wood) it seems us novak fans have a good time ahead if 2009 is the standard for Nadals beginning of the end.
 

tented

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Denisovich said:
Since this talk has not yet started for Novak (knocking wood) it seems us novak fans have a good time ahead if 2009 is the standard for Nadals beginning of the end.

And since all players are the same, this works out perfectly. ;)
 

nehmeth

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Rafa heads into the French Open with no European clay court titles. He's only made two finals. He lost his #4 seeding as well. Stan, F3, Murray and Novak have beaten on his beloved dirt. The last frontier is someone (not named Soderling) taking him down in a best of five match at RG. We may see that too in a couple of weeks.

Today he was up in the tiebreak 6-2 and lost it. Then he was hit off the court in the second set. This isn't just a matter of shaking the rust off and rediscovering his form.
 

DarthFed

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Should I put my Mike One cap on and say Rafa is as good as ever? Fast as a cat, moving incredibly, he's just facing much tougher clay competition. Stan and Triple F would've taken him 5 years ago!
 

isabelle

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If Manacor's bull wins RG so I'll marry Pink Panther....I think he won't reach final, wait and see if i'm right or wrong
 

JesuslookslikeBorg

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isabelle said:
If Manacor's bull wins RG so I'll marry Pink Panther....I think he won't reach final, wait and see if i'm right or wrong

think of all the animals you've ever heard about,
like rhinosaurus's tigers cats and mink,
but of all the funny animals in all this world,
have you ever seen a panther that is pink ?...think.
a panther that is positively pink. :)
 

nehmeth

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isabelle said:
If Manacor's bull wins RG so I'll marry Pink Panther....I think he won't reach final, wait and see if i'm right or wrong

We may be hearing wedding bells in your future!
 

Federberg

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On the basis that Rafa is now being beaten multiple times by people he used to own, I have to concede that this is decline. No question about it.

The question is... and this will define what type of champion Rafa ultimately is. Is he more Borg-like or Connors like? Will he rage against the dying of the light or just fade away. Hope he takes the Jimbo route
 

El Dude

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If Rafa was Borg-like then he would have retired after 2011, when Novak took him to school all year, more convincingly than McEnroe did Borg in 1981. But then Rafa had a nice bounce-back in the first half of 2012 and one of his best years in 2013.

What we're seeing now, from after Roland Garros 2014 on - about a year - is probably the worst span of Rafa's career, at least going back to when he was a pup in 2004. He is clearly not the Rafa of old. The question, as I see it, is not whether Rafa is in decline, but HOW he is declining and will continue to decline. Every player is different in this regard, although there are some general patterns - what I have called the various phases of development (around 17-21), peak (22-26), plateau (27-31), and decline (32-).

If we look at Roger, we see a slight half-step down in 2008-09 which can't be accounted for solely by Rafa's rise and the emergence of Novak and Andy as Roger's overall win pct against other opponents also declined a bit. I don't have the numbers on me, but I've crunched them before. Then Roger takes another half-step down in 2010 and and then another step down 2013. Each time he dropped a half-step, he was able to right the ship for a couple years or so. 2013 looked like the end was really upon us, but then he had a strong year in 2014. But one thing we've seen is that even though he's been playing at a higher level for the last year and a half, he still is more prone to go out early in Slams now - he's gone out in the first week in two of his last five Slams, going back to the beginning of 2014.

But my point is, Roger has been able to slow his decline and remain at a high level, even over-coming a nearly disastrous 2013. Rafa's 2015 could be similar to Roger's 2013. Actually, despite their almost 5 year age different, Rafa has always been only 2-3 years behind Roger. Roger broke through to the top 10 in 2002, won his first Slam in 2003. Rafa did both in 2005.

One difference between Roger in 2013 and Rafa now, is that this is Rafa's second sub-par year in a row. Certainly 2014 was marred by injury, but his overall performance was also lower than his best years. Actually, if you look at Rafa's career, he seems to have two types of years: great years in which his win% is in the 88-91% range (2005, 2008, 2010, 2013) and merely good years in which it is more in the 81-83% range (2006-07, 2009, 2011-12, 2014) - although 2011 was quite a good year, just marred by Novak's dominance. 2015 is his first year in which he has been below even that range, and he's quite a bit below at 74%, with clay season almost done. Even if he wins Roland Garros and goes 7-0, his overall win % would still be only at 78% at the end of clay season, far from where he needs to be and thus unlikely to surpass 80%.

So it is hard not to think that Rafa is amidst a rapid decline, but I'm not quite ready to count him out. One narrative that I could see as a possibility is that he loses at Roland Garros this year and limps to the finish line this year, then trains like crazy and has one more great clay season next year in 2016, reclaiming RG and several other titles before calling it quits - along with Roger - by year's end. While I'd be sad to see both go, wouldn't it be fitting to see them go out together?
 

britbox

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El Dude said:
If Rafa was Borg-like then he would have retired after 2011, when Novak took him to school all year, more convincingly than McEnroe did Borg in 1981. But then Rafa had a nice bounce-back in the first half of 2012 and one of his best years in 2013.

What we're seeing now, from after Roland Garros 2014 on - about a year - is probably the worst span of Rafa's career, at least going back to when he was a pup in 2004. He is clearly not the Rafa of old. The question, as I see it, is not whether Rafa is in decline, but HOW he is declining and will continue to decline. Every player is different in this regard, although there are some general patterns - what I have called the various phases of development (around 17-21), peak (22-26), plateau (27-31), and decline (32-).

If we look at Roger, we see a slight half-step down in 2008-09 which can't be accounted for solely by Rafa's rise and the emergence of Novak and Andy as Roger's overall win pct against other opponents also declined a bit. I don't have the numbers on me, but I've crunched them before. Then Roger takes another half-step down in 2010 and and then another step down 2013. Each time he dropped a half-step, he was able to right the ship for a couple years or so. 2013 looked like the end was really upon us, but then he had a strong year in 2014. But one thing we've seen is that even though he's been playing at a higher level for the last year and a half, he still is more prone to go out early in Slams now - he's gone out in the first week in two of his last five Slams, going back to the beginning of 2014.

But my point is, Roger has been able to slow his decline and remain at a high level, even over-coming a nearly disastrous 2013. Rafa's 2015 could be similar to Roger's 2013. Actually, despite their almost 5 year age different, Rafa has always been only 2-3 years behind Roger. Roger broke through to the top 10 in 2002, won his first Slam in 2003. Rafa did both in 2005.

One difference between Roger in 2013 and Rafa now, is that this is Rafa's second sub-par year in a row. Certainly 2014 was marred by injury, but his overall performance was also lower than his best years. Actually, if you look at Rafa's career, he seems to have two types of years: great years in which his win% is in the 88-91% range (2005, 2008, 2010, 2013) and merely good years in which it is more in the 81-83% range (2006-07, 2009, 2011-12, 2014) - although 2011 was quite a good year, just marred by Novak's dominance. 2015 is his first year in which he has been below even that range, and he's quite a bit below at 74%, with clay season almost done. Even if he wins Roland Garros and goes 7-0, his overall win % would still be only at 78% at the end of clay season, far from where he needs to be and thus unlikely to surpass 80%.

So it is hard not to think that Rafa is amidst a rapid decline, but I'm not quite ready to count him out. One narrative that I could see as a possibility is that he loses at Roland Garros this year and limps to the finish line this year, then trains like crazy and has one more great clay season next year in 2016, reclaiming RG and several other titles before calling it quits - along with Roger - by year's end. While I'd be sad to see both go, wouldn't it be fitting to see them go out together?

Too much science mate- enjoyable as it is to read. The biggest difference is HOW they win tennis matches.
 

nehmeth

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britbox said:
isabelle said:
If Manacor's bull wins RG so I'll marry Pink Panther....I think he won't reach final, wait and see if i'm right or wrong

Peter Sellars? He might smell a bit.

pink-panther.jpg
 

El Dude

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britbox said:
Too much science mate- enjoyable as it is to read. The biggest difference is HOW they win tennis matches.

I don't disagree. But also don't see why what I wrote is "too much science." I'm just looking at trends and trajectories, which is what I often do. It isn't meant to replace other forms of analysis, just add a perspective that is often missing from the discussion.
 

herios

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El Dude said:
britbox said:
Too much science mate- enjoyable as it is to read. The biggest difference is HOW they win tennis matches.

I don't disagree. But also don't see why what I wrote is "too much science." I'm just looking at trends and trajectories, which is what I often do. It isn't meant to replace other forms of analysis, just add a perspective that is often missing from the discussion.

Just keep on doing them El Dude. I enjoy reading them, I was doing them as well in other sports.
:clap
 

britbox

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I agree - El Dude's posts are always enjoyable so don't get me wrong - If you are comparing Federer and Nadal with a subject of managed declines... then you need to look at HOW they win/lose matches rather than pigeon-holing on age categories. I agree with a lot of El Dude's "generic" analysis, but one size doesn't fit all.
 

El Dude

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Britbox, I agree that one size doesn't fit all - which I said above, in saying that every player declines differently. Age categories are just general parameters, the average, if you will, from which every player varies, depending upon the specifics of their game. This applies not only to decline, but how a player rises to his peak level; I'm reminded of the "Dimitrov moving parts" theory - that Grigor would take longer to find his peak because of the complexity of his game. Of course a very small percentage of players weren't at their peak by the time they were 24, Grigor's age, so it seems unlikely at this point that he'll get much better - although I still hold out some hope.

Anyhow, many folks, including myself, have posited that when Rafa starts to decline it will happen relatively rapidly - due to the grinding nature of his game and the wear on his body. I would think Novak would be somewhat similar, although for him it will likely be slower and later because his body has less wear, he's less bulky and less injury-prone, so for him the main factor will be that eventually he won't be able to quite get to as many balls as he can now.

But I'd like to hear more from you as far as Roger and Rafa goes. How do you see their decline patterns differently and in what ways do you see them declining from here on out?
 

Federberg

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britbox said:
I agree - El Dude's posts are always enjoyable so don't get me wrong - If you are comparing Federer and Nadal with a subject of managed declines... then you need to look at HOW they win/lose matches rather than pigeon-holing on age categories. I agree with a lot of El Dude's "generic" analysis, but one size doesn't fit all.

I have to agree. Doesn't mean I don't like El Dude's efforts though. History rhymes, but we're talking about human beings here. Everyone's different, and times are different too. For the record my comment about Borg vs Connors was more to do with how they left the game. Quitting or fighting..