Is Rafa in Decline?

[Moxie]

Could Rafa have "the yips"? It's a term more commonly heard in golf, almost always with regard to a more "mature" player.

One of the commentators on the Tennis Channel (I think Paul Annacone) referred a few times to Rafa having the yips.

"The Yips," as I understand them, (and you're right, the term has been used in tennis, esp. on serve,) are a negative spiral of lack of timing and lack of confidence. And then you start thinking about it too much. Someone mentioned that Coria got the yips on his serve, and Djokovic actually developed them on his for a period of time. On Sunday in Madrid, Andy won because he completely disrupted Rafa and played better. But the scoreline was so damning because Rafa couldn't get out of his own head, IMO.

Kieran keeps saying that Nadal has to find "the calm," which is right. Calm the demons in the head. But he has to get to "the flow," as well, where the shots come without the pressing/forcing disruption of too much thinking. A second lost to thinking about what you're doing can be the fatal difference in mis-timing or mis-hitting.

 

[nehmeth]

"The Yips," as I understand them, (and you're right, the term has been used in tennis, esp. on serve,) are a negative spiral of lack of timing and lack of confidence. And then you start thinking about it too much. Someone mentioned that Coria got the yips on his serve, and Djokovic actually developed them on his for a period of time. On Sunday in Madrid, Andy won because he completely disrupted Rafa and played better. But the scoreline was so damning because Rafa couldn't get out of his own head, IMO.

It's been alluded to on the serve but it's quite a bit more involved than that. Novak's issue was not yips, but a substantive alteration in his service motion (thanks Todd Martin).

Reposting excerpt from the initial post.

" Yips or the yips is the loss of fine motor skills without apparent explanation, in one of a number of different sports. Athletes affected by the yips demonstrate a sudden, unexplained loss of previous skills. Athletes affected by the yips sometimes recover their ability, sometimes compensate by changing technique, or may be forced to abandon their sport at the highest level." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yips

"In some people, the yips are a type of focal dystonia, a condition that causes involuntary muscle contractions during a specific task. It's most likely related to overuse of a certain set of muscles, similar to writer's cramp. Anxiety worsens the effect.

Some athletes become so anxious and self-focused — overthinking to the point of distraction — that their ability to execute a skill, like putting, is impaired."
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-condi...n-20031359

 

[Moxie]

"The Yips," as I understand them, (and you're right, the term has been used in tennis, esp. on serve,) are a negative spiral of lack of timing and lack of confidence. And then you start thinking about it too much. Someone mentioned that Coria got the yips on his serve, and Djokovic actually developed them on his for a period of time. On Sunday in Madrid, Andy won because he completely disrupted Rafa and played better. But the scoreline was so damning because Rafa couldn't get out of his own head, IMO.

It's been alluded to on the serve but it's quite a bit more involved than that. Novak's issue was not yips, but a substantive alteration in his service motion (thanks Todd Martin).

Reposting excerpt from the initial post.

" Yips or the yips is the loss of fine motor skills without apparent explanation, in one of a number of different sports. Athletes affected by the yips demonstrate a sudden, unexplained loss of previous skills. Athletes affected by the yips sometimes recover their ability, sometimes compensate by changing technique, or may be forced to abandon their sport at the highest level." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yips

"In some people, the yips are a type of focal dystonia, a condition that causes involuntary muscle contractions during a specific task. It's most likely related to overuse of a certain set of muscles, similar to writer's cramp. Anxiety worsens the effect.

Some athletes become so anxious and self-focused — overthinking to the point of distraction — that their ability to execute a skill, like putting, is impaired."
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-condi...n-20031359

I did read all of that. Maybe you're buying the wikipedia definition of yips, and I'm going with the colloquial. I thought, when he was serving poorly, that it was self-perpetuating, and became psychological, but if you say it was just a motion that he needed to change, I'll go with your assessment, since you follow him more closely, and he certainly has improved his serve. Anyway, I do think the notions of anxiety and over-focus are true components of the yips, and I think Rafa is currently too much in his own head and his own way. I really don't think it's his tennis, per se.

 

[nehmeth]

"The Yips," as I understand them, (and you're right, the term has been used in tennis, esp. on serve,) are a negative spiral of lack of timing and lack of confidence. And then you start thinking about it too much. Someone mentioned that Coria got the yips on his serve, and Djokovic actually developed them on his for a period of time. On Sunday in Madrid, Andy won because he completely disrupted Rafa and played better. But the scoreline was so damning because Rafa couldn't get out of his own head, IMO.

It's been alluded to on the serve but it's quite a bit more involved than that. Novak's issue was not yips, but a substantive alteration in his service motion (thanks Todd Martin).

Reposting excerpt from the initial post.

" Yips or the yips is the loss of fine motor skills without apparent explanation, in one of a number of different sports. Athletes affected by the yips demonstrate a sudden, unexplained loss of previous skills. Athletes affected by the yips sometimes recover their ability, sometimes compensate by changing technique, or may be forced to abandon their sport at the highest level." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yips

"In some people, the yips are a type of focal dystonia, a condition that causes involuntary muscle contractions during a specific task. It's most likely related to overuse of a certain set of muscles, similar to writer's cramp. Anxiety worsens the effect.

Some athletes become so anxious and self-focused — overthinking to the point of distraction — that their ability to execute a skill, like putting, is impaired."
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-condi...n-20031359

I did read all of that. Maybe you're buying the wikipedia definition of yips, and I'm going with the colloquial. I thought, when he was serving poorly, that it was self-perpetuating, and became psychological, but if you say it was just a motion that he needed to change, I'll go with your assessment, since you follow him more closely, and he certainly has improved his serve. Anyway, I do think the notions of anxiety and over-focus are true components of the yips, and I think Rafa is currently too much in his own head and his own way. I really don't think it's his tennis, per se.

Let's try from the Mayo clinic definition then.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/yips/basics/definition/con-20031359

For some reason the link to causes isn't working. Will try it again.
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/yips/basics/causes/con-20031359

 

[Moxie]

^ I'm not denying that there could be some medical definition, but do you really think that's what it is? I'm going with what most people think the Yips is, which is psychological. I'm surprised if you have a problem with that.

 

[nehmeth]

^ I'm not denying that there could be some medical definition, but do you really think that's what it is? I'm going with what most people think the Yips is, which is psychological. I'm surprised if you have a problem with that.

Color yourself surprised then... for years "most people" did chalk it up to a loss of resolve, nerves that come as a player ages.

Roger had one of the greatest forehands of all time... still formidable when it's on, but suddenly it begins to go awry out of nowhere. Rafa's greatest ability was turning defense to offense. Yesterday it was where he had his worst shank moments. Could be just nerves, could be a loss of confidence, but he was fine the day before.

I'm not saying it is the source of the problem, but it is something that I'm putting forth as one possibility, and something to watch going forward.

 

[Moxie]

^ I'm not denying that there could be some medical definition, but do you really think that's what it is? I'm going with what most people think the Yips is, which is psychological. I'm surprised if you have a problem with that.

Color yourself surprised then... for years "most people" did chalk it up to a loss of resolve, nerves that come as a player ages.

Roger had one of the greatest forehands of all time... still formidable when it's on, but suddenly it begins to go awry out of nowhere. Rafa's greatest ability was turning defense to offense. Yesterday it was where he had his worst shank moments. Could be just nerves, could be a loss of confidence, but he was fine the day before.

I'm not saying it is the source of the problem, but it is something that I'm putting forth as one possibility, and something to watch going forward.

I'll be looking out, but I'm going with timing and confidence, personally. Didn't you ever see "Tin Cup?" :snicker (Couldn't find a clip for ya.)

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Is Rafa admitting that it is the beginning of the end in the following quote?

"Whatever will happen, will be," Nadal said. "It's something that we have to realize, all of us, that what's happening during these last years, it's very complicated to be 10 or 11 years without leaving the top four."

 

[brokenshoelace]

^ I'm not denying that there could be some medical definition, but do you really think that's what it is? I'm going with what most people think the Yips is, which is psychological. I'm surprised if you have a problem with that.

Color yourself surprised then... for years "most people" did chalk it up to a loss of resolve, nerves that come as a player ages.

Roger had one of the greatest forehands of all time... still formidable when it's on, but suddenly it begins to go awry out of nowhere. Rafa's greatest ability was turning defense to offense. Yesterday it was where he had his worst shank moments. Could be just nerves, could be a loss of confidence, but he was fine the day before.

I'm not saying it is the source of the problem, but it is something that I'm putting forth as one possibility, and something to watch going forward.

Roger's forehand declined due to a noticeable loss in quickness, explosiveness, footwork/movement, etc... I don't think it was some bizarre out of the blue phenomenon.

It's the same reason behind Nadal's decline. These guys are used to moving a certain way, and getting to the ball at a certain time. In such a timing specific sport, the slightest bit of delay makes a huge difference. It took Roger quite a while to come to terms and adjust.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Is Rafa admitting that it is the beginning of the end in the following quote?

"Whatever will happen, will be," Nadal said. "It's something that we have to realize, all of us, that what's happening during these last years, it's very complicated to be 10 or 11 years without leaving the top four."

lol dude what's up with your insistence on reading too much and writing players' obituaries lately? Nadal is just being philosophical, as he often is, in the face of adversity. He's calling it like it is.

 

[Federberg]

^ I'm not denying that there could be some medical definition, but do you really think that's what it is? I'm going with what most people think the Yips is, which is psychological. I'm surprised if you have a problem with that.

I think the yips is more than psychological. I think it starts of as a technical issue, but morphs into something mental

 

[Denis]

With Coria, it was a prolonged period over which his service yips developed, and also with a quite inconsistent pattern. One day he would hit 20 double faults in a match, the other he would go without.

 

[isabelle]

Before anybody freaks out at me "in decline" should not be confused with "done."

I think he is. I also think he will win at least two more slams in his career. Rafa has not played a whole tournament at his peak level since last year's Aussie Open (obviously with the exception of the final). So it's been over a year since Rafa played his best tennis for more than maybe glimpse. Even though Rafa won Roland Garros last year, he hardly produced vintage performances.

So my question is, are we witnessing the beginning of the end? I think so. Mind you I am guessing rafa is around for at least two more seasons after this.

The beginnig of the end indeed. N°7 on ATP rankings, no comments !!!

 

[Moxie]

^ I'm not denying that there could be some medical definition, but do you really think that's what it is? I'm going with what most people think the Yips is, which is psychological. I'm surprised if you have a problem with that.

I think the yips is more than psychological. I think it starts of as a technical issue, but morphs into something mental

Yes, that's what I said, I think. I called a spiral involving timing and confidence, one feeding the other negatively. I was using "psychological" to distinguish from the medical issues nehmeth was quoting, but I did include the technical component. Broken says lack of timing comes from slowing down.

 

[Federberg]

^Ah ok. Fair enough

 

[Federberg]

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/sergiy-stakhovsky-whenever-roger-federer-loses-all-say-that-he-is-finished-but-when-rafael-nadal-lost-articolo23922.html?

He sort of has a point out there in the public. But judging by some comments on here, maybe not!

 

[brokenshoelace]

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/sergiy-stakhovsky-whenever-roger-federer-loses-all-say-that-he-is-finished-but-when-rafael-nadal-lost-articolo23922.html?

He sort of has a point out there in the public. But judging by some comments on here, maybe not!

Actually I don't understand his point. If people react differently it's because these are two different situations. People are more prepared to say Roger is done because he's much older and has been losing more and more frequently for years (not a couple of matches as Stakhovsky claims). With Rafa he was the king of clay as recently as last year and until he loses at RG again, people are hesitant, and rightly so. Anyway, I don't understand what he's trying to say. Are people harsh on Roger or does he think Nadal is done?

Regardless, we can at least all agree that Nadal has declined, so that's a start.

 

[Federberg]

I think that the 'retire' theme has been occurring for Roger for years now. Even when it was way too early. The general idea being that a player with his prior success shouldn't continue to play if he couldn't match his previous level.

They might start saying the same to Rafa if he loses too early at RG, but it is - from my perspective - a slightly different reaction to Rafa's troubles. I do agree that now that Roger is much older 'retire' while not reasonable is a more understandable theme for him.

For my part, I'll keep my faith in Rafa until we see out this year. This could still be a blip (although the longer this goes on the harder that is to believe!)

 

[the AntiPusher]

I now am double hoping Nadal wins Roland Garros because the level of schadenfreude is unbearable.

Dude, I am with ya although "schadenfreude" isn't part of my vocabulary.

 

[Riotbeard]

http://www.tennisworldusa.org/sergiy-stakhovsky-whenever-roger-federer-loses-all-say-that-he-is-finished-but-when-rafael-nadal-lost-articolo23922.html?

He sort of has a point out there in the public. But judging by some comments on here, maybe not!

Actually I don't understand his point. If people react differently it's because these are two different situations. People are more prepared to say Roger is done because he's much older and has been losing more and more frequently for years (not a couple of matches as Stakhovsky claims). With Rafa he was the king of clay as recently as last year and until he loses at RG again, people are hesitant, and rightly so. Anyway, I don't understand what he's trying to say. Are people harsh on Roger or does he think Nadal is done?

Regardless, we can at least all agree that Nadal has declined, so that's a start.

Rafa won RG last year, but he was hardly the king of clay compared to the rest of his career. He has not been the same player for a year and a half, and people do still talk like he is about to turn a corner. Maybe he is, but I get the point. People have been talking about Fed retiring since at least 2011...