How to win against Rafa --- The tale of two Swiss Blokes

[brokenshoelace]

I know there are Tsonga detractors but I have never been more on the edge of my seat than both those matches.

I love watching the guy.

Me too as I was so impressed by his serving at Queens in 2007 and a few other events prior to the AO '08, that I actually had a large enough €500 bet on Tsonga to win and thankfully he did, though I wasn't predicting anything like the scoreline that entailed.

Not bad! Well there was one poster here who tried to claim JWT was not really "talented"... Lol

Who?

 

[Kieran]

I know there are Tsonga detractors but I have never been more on the edge of my seat than both those matches.

I love watching the guy.

Me too as I was so impressed by his serving at Queens in 2007 and a few other events prior to the AO '08, that I actually had a large enough €500 bet on Tsonga to win and thankfully he did, though I wasn't predicting anything like the scoreline that entailed.

Not bad! Well there was one poster here who tried to claim JWT was not really "talented"... Lol

Who?

It maybe that he means me, since I disagree when I read that Tsonga is some intuitive tennis genius of the highest order. But of course, I never said Tsonga was not really "talented" so now I'm certain he means somebody else.

 

[Kieran]

The 2009 DelPo match was a more brutal take down. Ruthless. I believe it was 2, 2, and 2.

Let me look at my journal. Ah, Rafa had a tear in the stomach muscle.

Ah, now you're happy to derail your own thread with side-swipes against Rafa (which was the purpose of the thread in the first place, I'm sure). You weren't happy it was derailed by pointing out its obvious weaknesses. And what about my posts regarding "how to win against Rafa?" :s Or maybe that's what you meant by this ^^ post?

Darth made a good point back pages ago, when he said that Stan has more power than Roger so can withstand more freight come into his one-hander. Are you willing to accept that Stan isn't a good example for Roger to follow, and that the article is perhaps a little bandwagon-ish in its shortsightedness and point?

 

[Luxilon Borg]

I know there are Tsonga detractors but I have never been more on the edge of my seat than both those matches.

I love watching the guy.

Me too as I was so impressed by his serving at Queens in 2007 and a few other events prior to the AO '08, that I actually had a large enough €500 bet on Tsonga to win and thankfully he did, though I wasn't predicting anything like the scoreline that entailed.

Not bad! Well there was one poster here who tried to claim jWT was not really "talented"... Lol

That's pretty hilarious alright when you watch the touch at the net in that AO match and it's not like it's all about serve when he has big wins unlike say Isner or Karlovic. He's pretty damn good when playing to his potential, but it doesn't happen anywhere near enough and his knee is constantly giving him trouble. Plus, he's 29 in 2 months time so his best is definitely behind him I'd say. I'm not predicting a Ferrer like 30+ best years of his career for Tsonga as I think he'll just see more and more knee problems unfortunately.

I don't think the knee is that big of an issue.

The ONLY issues I see with his career are a lack of laser like focus 24/7. But look at the standard he is being held to with the Big Four!!!! The second issue is his back does not penetrate as well as most of the others in the top 10. Other than that, he is a force of nature. He may surprise you at 30+.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

I know there are Tsonga detractors but I have never been more on the edge of my seat than both those matches.

I love watching the guy.

Me too as I was so impressed by his serving at Queens in 2007 and a few other events prior to the AO '08, that I actually had a large enough €500 bet on Tsonga to win and thankfully he did, though I wasn't predicting anything like the scoreline that entailed.

Not bad! Well there was one poster here who tried to claim JWT was not really "talented"... Lol

Who?

It maybe that he means me, since I disagree when I read that Tsonga is some intuitive tennis genius of the highest order. But of course, I never said Tsonga was not really "talented" so now I'm certain he means somebody else.

Yep, it was you. No worries, you are entitled to an opinion. Your statement is pretty clear below...seems you may be backing off a bit....:huh:

"Tsonga, however, isn't an example of a guy whose gifts are from the tennis gods. He's just a big guy who plays a flamboyant way, but nothing that's unique or inspired."

 

[Kieran]

Yep, it was you. No worries, you are entitled to an opinion. Your statement is pretty clear below...seems you may be backing off a bit....:huh:

"Tsonga, however, isn't an example of a guy whose gifts are from the tennis gods. He's just a big guy who plays a flamboyant way, but nothing that's unique or inspired."

How is that backing off? You realise that was a thread about guys of Nastase's and McEnroe's level of genius (which you agreed with, by the way)?

So how does that translate into me saying that Tsonga "is not really 'talented'"?

By the way, when you used quotation marks for the word "talented", were you quoting someone, or making a grammatical error? I think we should be alerted...

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Yep, it was you. No worries, you are entitled to an opinion. Your statement is pretty clear below...seems you may be backing off a bit....:huh:

"Tsonga, however, isn't an example of a guy whose gifts are from the tennis gods. He's just a big guy who plays a flamboyant way, but nothing that's unique or inspired."

How is that backing off? You realise that was a thread about guys of Nastase's and McEnroe's level of genius (which you agreed with, by the way)?

So how does that translate into me saying that Tsonga "is not really 'talented'"?

By the way, when you used quotation marks for the word "talented", were you quoting someone, or making a grammatical error? I think we should be alerted...

First, sorry for any confusion, I did not remember it was you and from what thread. Apologies.

Second, many do put Tsonga in that genius camp, just a far more physical version. There are no more and there never will be more Macs and Nastys, for the sole reason the game has gone so demanding on a physio level. Rolling out of bed, eating Haagen Daz and warming up for 5 minutes, then winning a match on talent won't work any more.

 

[Kieran]

Well, Federer is a guy whose natural genius with a racket holds its own with any greats of the past. Other examples of modern wizards who toil lower down the foodchain are Triple-F and Daveed. The game changes but artistry is never far away...

 

[brokenshoelace]

Me too as I was so impressed by his serving at Queens in 2007 and a few other events prior to the AO '08, that I actually had a large enough €500 bet on Tsonga to win and thankfully he did, though I wasn't predicting anything like the scoreline that entailed.

Not bad! Well there was one poster here who tried to claim JWT was not really "talented"... Lol

Who?

It maybe that he means me, since I disagree when I read that Tsonga is some intuitive tennis genius of the highest order. But of course, I never said Tsonga was not really "talented" so now I'm certain he means somebody else.

Yep, it was you. No worries, you are entitled to an opinion. Your statement is pretty clear below...seems you may be backing off a bit....:huh:

"Tsonga, however, isn't an example of a guy whose gifts are from the tennis gods. He's just a big guy who plays a flamboyant way, but nothing that's unique or inspired."

That doesn't mean he's saying Tsonga's not talented. Just not mega talented. I don't think anyone here actually believes that a top 10 tennis player is not talented.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Not bad! Well there was one poster here who tried to claim JWT was not really "talented"... Lol

Who?

It maybe that he means me, since I disagree when I read that Tsonga is some intuitive tennis genius of the highest order. But of course, I never said Tsonga was not really "talented" so now I'm certain he means somebody else.

Yep, it was you. No worries, you are entitled to an opinion. Your statement is pretty clear below...seems you may be backing off a bit....:huh:

"Tsonga, however, isn't an example of a guy whose gifts are from the tennis gods. He's just a big guy who plays a flamboyant way, but nothing that's unique or inspired."

That doesn't mean he's saying Tsonga's not talented. Just not mega talented. I don't think anyone here actually believes that a top 10 tennis player is not talented.

To me it sounded like he was crediting Tsonga's success due to his physical prowess and showmanship..."nothing unique or inspired" does not apply to anybody who makes top ten in my book. But I have no problem with his expression of his opinion.

 

[Kieran]

Come on, Lux, give it up, will ya? We had this out here and it's very clear what I'm saying. Use my own words, stop writing stuff like this. :s

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Come on, Lux, give it up, will ya? We had this out here and it's very clear what I'm saying. Use my own words, stop writing stuff like this. :s

Ok ok..to quote Keef Richards, "Shouldn't Take It So Hard!"

 

[Kieran]

Come on, Lux, give it up, will ya? We had this out here and it's very clear what I'm saying. Use my own words, stop writing stuff like this. :s

Ok ok..to quote Keef Richards, "Shouldn't Take It So Hard!"

No, you shouldn't, that's right...

 

[Luxilon Borg]

Come on, Lux, give it up, will ya? We had this out here and it's very clear what I'm saying. Use my own words, stop writing stuff like this. :s

Ok ok..to quote Keef Richards, "Shouldn't Take It So Hard!"

No, you shouldn't, that's right...

Well in any case..Tsonga looked horrible today...

 

[Moxie]

The 2009 DelPo match was a more brutal take down. Ruthless. I believe it was 2, 2, and 2.

Let me look at my journal. Ah, Rafa had a tear in the stomach muscle.

Ah, now you're happy to derail your own thread with side-swipes against Rafa (which was the purpose of the thread in the first place, I'm sure). You weren't happy it was derailed by pointing out its obvious weaknesses. And what about my posts regarding "how to win against Rafa?" :s Or maybe that's what you meant by this ^^ post?

Darth made a good point back pages ago, when he said that Stan has more power than Roger so can withstand more freight come into his one-hander. Are you willing to accept that Stan isn't a good example for Roger to follow, and that the article is perhaps a little bandwagon-ish in its shortsightedness and point?

I actually think GSM's original idea was to tell Roger how to beat Nadal, more than take side-swipes at Rafa, though he does seem to enjoy that. He even cites Cali in his OP, who also loves to come up with theories for Roger. Lost in all of this is the basic question: if some folks on the internet can "figure it out," why couldn't Tony Roche or Paul Annacone, or Roger, himself? I agree with you and Darth, btw, that Stan has powerful shoulders and can absorb more weight of shot into his one-handed BH.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

The 2009 DelPo match was a more brutal take down. Ruthless. I believe it was 2, 2, and 2.

Let me look at my journal. Ah, Rafa had a tear in the stomach muscle.

Ah, now you're happy to derail your own thread with side-swipes against Rafa (which was the purpose of the thread in the first place, I'm sure). You weren't happy it was derailed by pointing out its obvious weaknesses. And what about my posts regarding "how to win against Rafa?" :s Or maybe that's what you meant by this ^^ post?

Darth made a good point back pages ago, when he said that Stan has more power than Roger so can withstand more freight come into his one-hander. Are you willing to accept that Stan isn't a good example for Roger to follow, and that the article is perhaps a little bandwagon-ish in its shortsightedness and point?

1. In any thread it is difficult to keep it strictly upto the topic with so many posters
with different points of view around. If you are thinking that the purpose of this
thread is to insult Rafa, you are grossly mistaken. I actually first said the
positive thing that Rafa did not balme his loss to Murray in 2008 USO to
any injury. Then 2009 USO came up. I need to mention the thing.
Can you tell me whether I am making up the stomach muscle tear?
Generally speaking I prefer to insult people directly and not in a
backhanded manner.

2. As I already mentioned in my other post, all the points mentioned in that article
would certainly help in beating Rafa. Whether, they would be particularly suitable
for Roger to use them is another story. As I said before, the train has left the
station for Roger to cope up with point #1 (holding up in BH rallies). Without
fixing #1, difficult to be disciplined with point #2 (coming to net at right times only).
But, Roger could possibly use points #3 (wide sliced backhand) and
#4 (changing up return positions).

3. As you said all of these are merely adapting to Rafa's game. The better thing
to do would be to impose his game on Rafa. But, as we all know this is not
easy for Roger. Rafa beat him even in 2004 Miami and I think that was their
first match.

Now, on to side swipes. :blush:

a. One could have said JMDP won that USO match only because RN had muscle
tear. But JMDP had proved on more than one occassion that he can win
against Rafa and even if he cannot, he can provide a good match-up to
him. I expect the same story with SW.

b. Incidentally, RN also lost to JMDP that same year earlier in that season (2009).
That time Rafa blamed it on "concentration lapse".

 

[Moxie]

Now, on to side swipes. :blush:

a. One could have said JMDP won that USO match only because RN had muscle
tear. But JMDP had proved on more than one occassion that he can win
against Rafa and even if he cannot, he can provide a good match-up to
him. I expect the same story with SW.

b. Incidentally, RN also lost to JMDP that same year earlier in that season (2009).
That time Rafa blamed it on "concentration lapse".

a. "One" could say what I bolded from your above if one were blind. You're putting excuses in the mouths of Rafa fans when they aren't there.

b. Incidentally, RN lost three times that year to JMDP. I don't know of ever hearing about "concentration lapse" cited. You'll have to provide a link to that. Otherwise, that's just a cheap shot. Whether aimed at Rafa or his fans, it's hard to know, though I suspect both.

In this one thread, you've twice sarcastically made reference to Rafa's stomach muscle tear as an "excuse" for why he lost that match to DP at the USO. You're propagating a myth that anyone thought that was the only reason he lost, which is unfair and untrue. It's also 4+ years old, and hasn't really ever been discussed on these boards, so I'm not sure who you think you're lampooning. If you want to discuss, bring it up straight-forwardly, not via cheesy side-swipe.

2009 was a banner year for Del Potro; one he has yet to replicate. 3 of his 4 wins over Nadal came that year. The fourth just late last year. (Nadal has beaten Juan Martin 8 times, btw, over the years.)
One reason he has had success is that he's 6'6" and hits big and flat. Stan has become a better and more confident player in the last 18 months, and found a tactic that was working better against Nadal. I don't expect it to completely turn the tide between them, but it will likely work better for him than in the past.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

I don't know why you people think I am taking cheap shots. I don't have any hatred
towards Rafa nor I am fanatic about Federer.

The way I think about injuries is as a "factor". By factor, I mean I would admit it
played a role. But, I would not guess to venture that if not for that factor a victory
was sure for the injured player. I do think Rafa's stomach muscle tear was a factor
in that 2009 USO semifinal against JMDP.

As for the earlier loss (I have to look it up. I think the loss was at either IW or
Miami), Rafa indeed said that he had concentration lapse and so he lost the match
and I will provide the link for that. I will have to search for it. Finally, I do think
Rafa's statement about concentration lapse was indeed a honest statement
(I would not like it if used as an excuse). The reason for his lapse in concentration
is the fact that his parents were going through divorce at that time and it did
affect his concentration.

 

[Moxie]

I don't know why you people think I am taking cheap shots. I don't have any hatred
towards Rafa nor I am fanatic about Federer.

The way I think about injuries is as a "factor". By factor, I mean I would admit it
played a role. But, I would not guess to venture that if not for that factor a victory
was sure for the injured player. I do think Rafa's stomach muscle tear was a factor
in that 2009 USO semifinal against JMDP.

As for the earlier loss (I have to look it up. I think the loss was at either IW or
Miami), Rafa indeed said that he had concentration lapse and so he lost the match
and I will provide the link for that. I will have to search for it. Finally, I do think
Rafa's statement about concentration lapse was indeed a honest statement
(I would not like it if used as an excuse). The reason for his lapse in concentration
is the fact that his parents were going through divorce at that time and it did
affect his concentration.

Now you're being a bit coy, I think. If you bring in an old match that no one has mentioned and make a sarcastic remark about injury, it's going to be taken as a cheap shot, since injury-excuse is the standard trope used against Nadal and his fans.

I think anyone who's being fair would say that injury/impairment is a "factor" in a loss, but not necessarily the decider. I believe that most Nadal fans have said that, but for the stomach muscle tear, Nadal would only have lost less ignominiously to Del Potro in that USO SF. JMDP was on a mission in 2009, and there weren't many to stand in his way, including Federer. We keep hoping to see that Del Potro come back.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

I don't know why you people think I am taking cheap shots. I don't have any hatred
towards Rafa nor I am fanatic about Federer.

The way I think about injuries is as a "factor". By factor, I mean I would admit it
played a role. But, I would not guess to venture that if not for that factor a victory
was sure for the injured player. I do think Rafa's stomach muscle tear was a factor
in that 2009 USO semifinal against JMDP.

As for the earlier loss (I have to look it up. I think the loss was at either IW or
Miami), Rafa indeed said that he had concentration lapse and so he lost the match
and I will provide the link for that. I will have to search for it. Finally, I do think
Rafa's statement about concentration lapse was indeed a honest statement
(I would not like it if used as an excuse). The reason for his lapse in concentration
is the fact that his parents were going through divorce at that time and it did
affect his concentration.

Now you're being a bit coy, I think. If you bring in an old match that no one has mentioned and make a sarcastic remark about injury, it's going to be taken as a cheap shot, since injury-excuse is the standard trope used against Nadal and his fans.

I think anyone who's being fair would say that injury/impairment is a "factor" in a loss, but not necessarily the decider. I believe that most Nadal fans have said that, but for the stomach muscle tear, Nadal would only have lost less ignominiously to Del Potro in that USO SF. JMDP was on a mission in 2009, and there weren't many to stand in his way, including Federer. We keep hoping to see that Del Potro come back.

Please go through the thread carefully. I did not bring in the old match in the
first place. Somebody else talked about the 2009 RN vs JMDP match. I think it was LB.
He said it was a big beat down as the score was 6-2, 6-2, 6-2. Perhaps, he was not
aware of the stomach muscle tear factor and so I mentioned.

You folks stop being so insecure.