How to win against Rafa --- The tale of two Swiss Blokes

[Luxilon Borg]

Yeah Del Potro's level that match was pretty fearsome alright. Tsonga's brilliance that day was mostly at the net in AO '08. Never seen anything quite like it. Here are some of the best highlights of Tsonga's net play.

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO6lalt5f6M&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

Ah, that brings back memories.

It is very obvious that Nadal is a far better player now. The groundies way heavier, the serve is way more confident, and the backhand is miles better. But as you said, Tsonga was in the clouds that day.

He has reached that peak a few times on a few occasions...Fed at Wibly..that match with Joker at the French..etc.. But he cannot sustain it.

 

[Front242]

I was halfway through typing something along those lines of the two matches you cited above but I don't honestly think they were as good as the level in that match so I didn't post it and instead wrote what I believe to be the case that his AO match in '08 against Nadal was his best performance ever.

The one against Novak he played incredible for around 2.5 sets but still lost with 4 mps so I can't place that on the same level since he lost when he had a lot of chances to win and really messed up on some of those ms badly. Against Fed he was pretty flat first 2 sets and actually same against Djokovic in the first set of that RG match and then started really playing incredible but neither match had the same level as that AO performance against Nadal imo. The net play was amazing. His serving though against Fed at Wimbledon was incredible for the 3 straight sets he won.

 

[Front242]

The point at 5:08 in the clip above is nuts and likewise around 6:50 and 7:14. Incredible touch on the volleys. He's never volleyed like that since.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Er, they've only played twice in singles and 6-2 7-6(7) is hardly destroyed. 6-2 first set was a routine scoreline but that was pretty damn far from destroying in set 2.

Regardless, I would hardly use Rosol a blueprint on how to beat Nadal..as I said...a blip.

Well I agree there except it wasn't a blip but rather a case of a low ranked player having the best day of his career and playing incredible as opposed to a blip by Nadal. It is a blueprint for beating him by playing ultra aggressive but hardly anyone can keep that level up all match. A similar occurrence of divine intervention would be Tsonga's incredible performance against Nadal in the AO '08. Again, nothing much wrong Nadal did there, simply an incredible day's play by Tsonga and likewise as with Rosol, one he's never since replicated and probably never will.

Agree, all well said. Let's also not forget it was a 5 set match, hardly a blow out like the Tsonga or Del Po losses at the AO and USO.

Also, Nadal is just a better player now than 2008. In every way.

Don't think it would've mattered in either case against Rosol or Tsonga as they both played incredible (5th set from Rosol was unreal). .

Rosol still won 6-4 in the fifth. And that was him having his best day and Nadal playing below par. You don't think it would have made a difference if Nadal played better? Say he was holding serve a touch easier than he was? Moving a split second better? As it is, it was as close as it can be. 10% better play from the losing player could easily produce the same scoreline in reverse.

 

[Front242]

Regardless, I would hardly use Rosol a blueprint on how to beat Nadal..as I said...a blip.

Well I agree there except it wasn't a blip but rather a case of a low ranked player having the best day of his career and playing incredible as opposed to a blip by Nadal. It is a blueprint for beating him by playing ultra aggressive but hardly anyone can keep that level up all match. A similar occurrence of divine intervention would be Tsonga's incredible performance against Nadal in the AO '08. Again, nothing much wrong Nadal did there, simply an incredible day's play by Tsonga and likewise as with Rosol, one he's never since replicated and probably never will.

Agree, all well said. Let's also not forget it was a 5 set match, hardly a blow out like the Tsonga or Del Po losses at the AO and USO.

Also, Nadal is just a better player now than 2008. In every way.

Don't think it would've mattered in either case against Rosol or Tsonga as they both played incredible (5th set from Rosol was unreal). .

Rosol still won 6-4 in the fifth. And that was him having his best day and Nadal playing below par. You don't think it would have made a difference if Nadal played better? Say he was holding serve a touch easier than he was? Moving a split second better? As it is, it was as close as it can be. 10% better play from the losing player could easily produce the same scoreline in reverse.

I said the very same regarding Stan's loss at the WTF to Nadal and that was way closer and you disagreed 7-6(5) 7-6(6). Doesn't get much closer than that. Likewise Fed and Nadal could both have reversed both their losses at Wimbledon last year if not for a few key points won by their opponents but that's just how it goes. Karlovic and Isner squeak out wins like this all the time. Only way they can really.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

I was halfway through typing something along those lines of the two matches you cited above but I don't honestly think they were as good as the level in that match so I didn't post it and instead wrote what I believe to be the case that his AO match in '08 against Nadal was his best performance ever.

The one against Novak he played incredible for around 2.5 sets but still lost with 4 mps so I can't place that on the same level since he lost when he had a lot of chances to win and really messed up on some of those ms badly. Against Fed he was pretty flat first 2 sets and actually same against Djokovic in the first set of that RG match and then started really playing incredible but neither match had the same level as that AO performance against Nadal imo. The net play was amazing. His serving though against Fed at Wimbledon was incredible for the 3 straight sets he won.

Can't disagree on the analysis, but you could say the tougher ask was fed in grass and Nole on clay than Rafa circa 2008 on HC. Tsonga should watch this hi lite reel over and over.

 

[Front242]

I was halfway through typing something along those lines of the two matches you cited above but I don't honestly think they were as good as the level in that match so I didn't post it and instead wrote what I believe to be the case that his AO match in '08 against Nadal was his best performance ever.

The one against Novak he played incredible for around 2.5 sets but still lost with 4 mps so I can't place that on the same level since he lost when he had a lot of chances to win and really messed up on some of those ms badly. Against Fed he was pretty flat first 2 sets and actually same against Djokovic in the first set of that RG match and then started really playing incredible but neither match had the same level as that AO performance against Nadal imo. The net play was amazing. His serving though against Fed at Wimbledon was incredible for the 3 straight sets he won.

Can't disagree on the analysis, but you could say the tougher ask was fed in grass and Nole on clay than Rafa circa 2008 on HC. Tsonga should watch this hi lite reel over and over.

The way Fed played after set 2 was over it was easy for Tsonga. He broke once at the start of each set from there on and just needed to hold to serve out each set. To his credit as I mentioned he served absolutely incredibly well but Fed went so passive after winning set 2 and his ROS was pretty atrocious when he did manage to not get aced. Nadal beat Fed in their first ever match on HC and had some good wins on HC before then. It was still a big upset. Agree about watching the highlight over and over though! Tsonga seemed fitter then too.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

I was halfway through typing something along those lines of the two matches you cited above but I don't honestly think they were as good as the level in that match so I didn't post it and instead wrote what I believe to be the case that his AO match in '08 against Nadal was his best performance ever.

The one against Novak he played incredible for around 2.5 sets but still lost with 4 mps so I can't place that on the same level since he lost when he had a lot of chances to win and really messed up on some of those ms badly. Against Fed he was pretty flat first 2 sets and actually same against Djokovic in the first set of that RG match and then started really playing incredible but neither match had the same level as that AO performance against Nadal imo. The net play was amazing. His serving though against Fed at Wimbledon was incredible for the 3 straight sets he won.

Can't disagree on the analysis, but you could say the tougher ask was fed in grass and Nole on clay than Rafa circa 2008 on HC. Tsonga should watch this hi lite reel over and over.

The way Fed played after set 2 was over it was easy for Tsonga. He broke once at the start of each set fro there on and just needed to hold to serve out each set. To his credit as I mentioned he served absolutely incredibly well but Fed went so passive after winning set 2 and his ROS was pretty atrocious when he did manage to not get aced. Nadal beat Fed in their first ever match on HC and had some good wins on HC before then. It was still a big upset.

I know there are Tsonga detractors but I have never been more on the edge of my seat than both those matches.

I love watching the guy.

 

[Front242]

I know there are Tsonga detractors but I have never been more on the edge of my seat than both those matches.

I love watching the guy.

Me too as I was so impressed by his serving at Queens in 2007 and a few other events prior to the AO '08, that I actually had a large enough €500 bet on Tsonga to win and thankfully he did, though I wasn't predicting anything like the scoreline that entailed.

 

[Luxilon Borg]

I know there are Tsonga detractors but I have never been more on the edge of my seat than both those matches.

I love watching the guy.

Me too as I was so impressed by his serving at Queens in 2007 and a few other events prior to the AO '08, that I actually had a large enough €500 bet on Tsonga to win and thankfully he did, though I wasn't predicting anything like the scoreline that entailed.

Not bad! Well there was one poster here who tried to claim JWT was not really "talented"... Lol

 

[Front242]

I know there are Tsonga detractors but I have never been more on the edge of my seat than both those matches.

I love watching the guy.

Me too as I was so impressed by his serving at Queens in 2007 and a few other events prior to the AO '08, that I actually had a large enough €500 bet on Tsonga to win and thankfully he did, though I wasn't predicting anything like the scoreline that entailed.

Not bad! Well there was one poster here who tried to claim jWT was not really "talented"... Lol

That's pretty hilarious alright when you watch the touch at the net in that AO match and it's not like it's all about serve when he has big wins unlike say Isner or Karlovic. He's pretty damn good when playing to his potential, but it doesn't happen anywhere near enough and his knee is constantly giving him trouble. Plus, he's 29 in 2 months time so his best is definitely behind him I'd say. I'm not predicting a Ferrer like 30+ best years of his career for Tsonga as I think he'll just see more and more knee problems unfortunately.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

The 2009 DelPo match was a more brutal take down. Ruthless. I believe it was 2, 2, and 2.

Let me look at my journal. Ah, Rafa had a tear in the stomach muscle.

 

[Moxie]

The 2009 DelPo match was a more brutal take down. Ruthless. I believe it was 2, 2, and 2.

Let me look at my journal. Ah, Rafa had a tear in the stomach muscle.

It seems like you're making an excuse, GSM. :dodgy: And derailing the flow of conversation to do it.

 

[Moxie]

I know there are Tsonga detractors but I have never been more on the edge of my seat than both those matches.

I love watching the guy.

Me too as I was so impressed by his serving at Queens in 2007 and a few other events prior to the AO '08, that I actually had a large enough €500 bet on Tsonga to win and thankfully he did, though I wasn't predicting anything like the scoreline that entailed.

Not bad! Well there was one poster here who tried to claim jWT was not really "talented"... Lol

That's pretty hilarious alright when you watch the touch at the net in that AO match and it's not like it's all about serve when he has big wins unlike say Isner or Karlovic. He's pretty damn good when playing to his potential, but it doesn't happen anywhere near enough and his knee is constantly giving him trouble. Plus, he's 29 in 2 months time so his best is definitely behind him I'd say. I'm not predicting a Ferrer like 30+ best years of his career for Tsonga as I think he'll just see more and more knee problems unfortunately.

I love Jo and I'm hoping that a few more healthy years could will bring not just more highlight reel matches, like those cited, but at least a couple of real career highlight wins. He has the talent, if he knuckles down and stays healthy.

 

[coban]

Yeah Del Potro's level that match was pretty fearsome alright. Tsonga's brilliance that day was mostly at the net in AO '08. Never seen anything quite like it. Here are some of the best highlights of Tsonga's net play.

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO6lalt5f6M&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

Tsonga's level in this match is alien - there will never ever ever be another display as this. It's simply THE best iv'e ever seen.

 

[britbox]

There is no "blueprint" to winning against Rafa. Clearly guys who can hit through him and execute an almost flawless match have a chance (cue Soderling, Rosol, Federer on fast/indoor courts etc...).

That's not how Djokovic enjoyed his success however. He played the patient game. I've heard several times that Djokovic turned the tables on Rafa by being more aggressive. I disagree totally. He pulled the trigger less early and was often "out-rafa-ing Rafa".
How many players can do that? Nobody, other than Djokovic himself.

Question with Wawrinka - could he have maintained it for the duration of the match? Not that it matters as we'll never know the answer. What I would say about Stan is that he took out Nole and has shown huge belief in the last 12 months... and he was riding the crest of the wave. I said at the time I felt robbed by the way the match concluded... but Stan was the man of the tournament and deserved the title.

IN 2008 USO Andy Murray Outrafaed Rafa in the Semifinals. Andy obviously did not hit
through him. He won with patient baseline rallies. To top it, I believe it is one of the rare
losses after which Rafa did not claim some form of injury.

Of course it is just one match and Andy has a 5-13 record against Rafa.

It is lot easier to win a match against Rafa by hitting thorugh him. It is lot harded
to win against him by outrafaing.

Point taken about Murray in 2008. Agree with the second point also. As it stands though, there is no blueprint. Nalbandian used to take Rafa outside of his comfort zone also, but didn't get the results.

 

[britbox]

Yeah Del Potro's level that match was pretty fearsome alright. Tsonga's brilliance that day was mostly at the net in AO '08. Never seen anything quite like it. Here are some of the best highlights of Tsonga's net play.

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nO6lalt5f6M&feature=player_detailpage[/video]

Tsonga's level in this match is alien - there will never ever ever be another display as this. It's simply THE best iv'e ever seen.

^ After that semi, I remember thinking this guy (Tsonga) is going to be a real force amongst the top dogs... Watch this space. Got that one wrong!

 

[TsarMatt]

^ I remember Jo taking the first set off Djokovic at the AO '08 final and thinking he was going to win it!

 

[britbox]

Ditto Matt. Tsonga looked the business at the AO 08. I thought he was going to shake up the sport.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Well I agree there except it wasn't a blip but rather a case of a low ranked player having the best day of his career and playing incredible as opposed to a blip by Nadal. It is a blueprint for beating him by playing ultra aggressive but hardly anyone can keep that level up all match. A similar occurrence of divine intervention would be Tsonga's incredible performance against Nadal in the AO '08. Again, nothing much wrong Nadal did there, simply an incredible day's play by Tsonga and likewise as with Rosol, one he's never since replicated and probably never will.

Agree, all well said. Let's also not forget it was a 5 set match, hardly a blow out like the Tsonga or Del Po losses at the AO and USO.

Also, Nadal is just a better player now than 2008. In every way.

Don't think it would've mattered in either case against Rosol or Tsonga as they both played incredible (5th set from Rosol was unreal). .

Rosol still won 6-4 in the fifth. And that was him having his best day and Nadal playing below par. You don't think it would have made a difference if Nadal played better? Say he was holding serve a touch easier than he was? Moving a split second better? As it is, it was as close as it can be. 10% better play from the losing player could easily produce the same scoreline in reverse.

I said the very same regarding Stan's loss at the WTF to Nadal and that was way closer and you disagreed 7-6(5) 7-6(6). Doesn't get much closer than that.

No offense but is this for real? A straight set victory "doesn't get much closer than that?" Try any score in which the loser takes a set. And a straight set loss is now closer than a 5 setter? Uh...Okay?

I don't think I need to reply, but hey, I have respect for you so I'll go ahead.

And no, you did not say the same regarding Stan's loss to Nadal. You said Stan almost won (how can you almost win when you lose both sets?) and that a few points here and there could have produced the same outcome in reverse. My point was, if Stan had won the 1st set, the complexion of the match would have been different, and the second set could have went differently given the pressure on both guys (Nadal to raise his level, Stan to finish the job). Conversely, in the Nadal-Rosol match, had Nadal won the 5th, the match would have been over -- Duh, I know. So there's a big difference.

My issue was with your statement that there was nothing Nadal could have done against Rosol, which is ridiculous since the match was tight as hell (and yes, it is was closer than a 7-6 7-6 straight set victory, since it went the distance). I don't see how you said the same about Nadal-Stan at the WTF. Did I say there was nothing Stan could have done? Of course he could have. And Nadal wasn't even playing that great. That's a terrible analogy, sorry. I just said he didn't come close to beating him in that match since he lost in straights.

The above doesn't make a lot of sense to me and I'm shocked it got a "like," by a Nadal fan, no less.
But I guess everyone has been trying hard to be diplomatic recently, lest they get labelled as sore losers, even at the expense of logic and reason.