How to win against Rafa --- The tale of two Swiss Blokes

GameSetAndMath

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Luxilon Borg said:
GameSetAndMath said:
Luxilon Borg said:
GameSetAndMath said:
Luxilon Borg said:
If Nadal was 100% would this article have ever been written? Do we need a reminder of the H2H?

This is exactly what I am against. Are you claiming that If Nadal was 100%, he would
have surely won on that day. I am not so sure of that. This is really irritating that people
keep saying this again and again. This is demeaning and not giving proper credit to Stan.

Everybody know the H2H. That does not mean everything remains exactly the same.

I am a HUGE Stanimal fan, been following him since day 1 when I saw him practice as a skinny rookie with Fed at the US OPEN.

I give him FULL CREDIT for winning the match because Rafa at 25% is still a ridiculous task.

I am however 100% confident that Rafa wins the 2014 AO if healthy. There is no doubt for me.

But, woulda, coulda, shouldas don't matter..and when they look at the record books it WON'T say, Stan W, Champion, with an asterisk...oh he beat an injured player.

I stand by what I said, this article would be in the recycle bin if Nadal plays even 90%,

For any one who reads what you wrote, it is clear that you are placing an asterisk
even though you are saying there is no asterisk. Actually, you made it worse now.
You are saying even a 90% Nadal would have beat Stan that day.

There is absolutely no guarantee that Rafa would have won that day if he was
100% fit. After all did you forget that, Stan was leading by a set and a break before
Rafa started holding his back.

Nobody knows and nobody can claim to predict correctly what would have happened
if Rafa was 100% that day. If we have to purely go by prior H2H, we don't even have
to play matches out right.

Surely, the article would not have been written if Stan had lost. That is not the
same as saying the article would not have been written if Nadal was 100%. By saying
so, you are claiming that Rafa would have definitely won if he was 100%.

We already had so many threads to discuss all these old stuff, "injury",
"asterisk" etc. I thought we can look into the tactics of what works and does
not work against Nadal and why. But, the thread is completely derailed.

p.s. Broken, you wanted examples of people claiming Rafa would have won.
Here you go. LB is an example. If I peer through all those old thread, I will
find many more, but I have better things to do.

I place no asterik. However it is hard not to remember it. I remember that Lendl beat Edberg when Stefan bowed out with back injury mid match. I remember Fed beating Nadal in that 5 setter when Rafa hurt his knee in the 4th. Etc.

Perhaps you are unaware that Nadal said he felt pain in the back PRIOR to the match???

Sorry if you feel the thread is derailed. There have been two players with any decent success against Nadal. Joker and Fed. Everyone can study all the tactics they want, when he is fit he is unbeatable. So is Joker so that is why when they play at their best it is basically a test of wills.

Stan played 3 consecutive brutal 5 setters against Joker, and finally won the last. How many SETS had Stan won from Nadal? Tactics Shmactics.

No, I am not asking you to forget it. Yes, I am aware of all kinds of reports which places
his injury at different points in the timeline, some going all the way back to Dinosarus period.

When there is an injury, it is OK to say that the injury is a factor in the match. It is not
OK to say that barring the injury Rafa would have certainly won as you claimed categorically.
Kieran is also doing the same thing, but hiding behind wordings such as "the way things
panned out". The reason is clear. Nobody knows what would have happened between
a 100% Nadal and Stan on that day. Nadal could have won. Stan could also have won.
You might say, look there is a 12-0 h2h record.

Stan had also lost to Novak about 14 times in a row. We all know that he beat Novak
fair and square. Now, suppose Novak had an injury on that day and Stan had won.
You would then say, Stan would never win against Novak if Novak is 100%. But Stan
proved that was not the case.

You got to admit that a similar thing could have happened in the finals also.
For all you know, Stan might have beaten a 100% Nadal on that day.
 

Luxilon Borg

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GameSetAndMath said:
Luxilon Borg said:
GameSetAndMath said:
Luxilon Borg said:
GameSetAndMath said:
This is exactly what I am against. Are you claiming that If Nadal was 100%, he would
have surely won on that day. I am not so sure of that. This is really irritating that people
keep saying this again and again. This is demeaning and not giving proper credit to Stan.

Everybody know the H2H. That does not mean everything remains exactly the same.

I am a HUGE Stanimal fan, been following him since day 1 when I saw him practice as a skinny rookie with Fed at the US OPEN.

I give him FULL CREDIT for winning the match because Rafa at 25% is still a ridiculous task.

I am however 100% confident that Rafa wins the 2014 AO if healthy. There is no doubt for me.

But, woulda, coulda, shouldas don't matter..and when they look at the record books it WON'T say, Stan W, Champion, with an asterisk...oh he beat an injured player.

I stand by what I said, this article would be in the recycle bin if Nadal plays even 90%,

For any one who reads what you wrote, it is clear that you are placing an asterisk
even though you are saying there is no asterisk. Actually, you made it worse now.
You are saying even a 90% Nadal would have beat Stan that day.

There is absolutely no guarantee that Rafa would have won that day if he was
100% fit. After all did you forget that, Stan was leading by a set and a break before
Rafa started holding his back.

Nobody knows and nobody can claim to predict correctly what would have happened
if Rafa was 100% that day. If we have to purely go by prior H2H, we don't even have
to play matches out right.

Surely, the article would not have been written if Stan had lost. That is not the
same as saying the article would not have been written if Nadal was 100%. By saying
so, you are claiming that Rafa would have definitely won if he was 100%.

We already had so many threads to discuss all these old stuff, "injury",
"asterisk" etc. I thought we can look into the tactics of what works and does
not work against Nadal and why. But, the thread is completely derailed.

p.s. Broken, you wanted examples of people claiming Rafa would have won.
Here you go. LB is an example. If I peer through all those old thread, I will
find many more, but I have better things to do.

I place no asterik. However it is hard not to remember it. I remember that Lendl beat Edberg when Stefan bowed out with back injury mid match. I remember Fed beating Nadal in that 5 setter when Rafa hurt his knee in the 4th. Etc.

Perhaps you are unaware that Nadal said he felt pain in the back PRIOR to the match???

Sorry if you feel the thread is derailed. There have been two players with any decent success against Nadal. Joker and Fed. Everyone can study all the tactics they want, when he is fit he is unbeatable. So is Joker so that is why when they play at their best it is basically a test of wills.

Stan played 3 consecutive brutal 5 setters against Joker, and finally won the last. How many SETS had Stan won from Nadal? Tactics Shmactics.

No, I am not asking you to forget it. Yes, I am aware of all kinds of reports which places
his injury at different points in the timeline, some going all the way back to Dinosarus period.

When there is an injury, it is OK to say that the injury is a factor in the match. It is not
OK to say that barring the injury Rafa would have certainly won as you claimed categorically.
Kieran is also doing the same thing, but hiding behind wordings such as "the way things
panned out". The reason is clear. Nobody knows what would have happened between
a 100% Nadal and Stan on that day. Nadal could have won. Stan could also have won.
You might say, look there is a 12-0 h2h record.

Stan had also lost to Novak about 14 times in a row. We all know that he beat Novak
fair and square. Now, suppose Novak had an injury on that day and Stan had won.
You would then say, Stan would never win against Novak if Novak is 100%. But Stan
proved that was not the case.

You got to admit that a similar thing could have happened in the finals also.
For all you know, Stan might have beaten a 100% Nadal on that day.

There are no guarantees and anything could have happened if include the all the infinite variables of the universe. But lets get real please.

Stan had a lot of close matches with Novak, despite losing many times in a row. The last two were literally decided by one or two points both approaching 5 hours.

Nadal had given Stan numerous consecutive beat downs, and especially in 3 out 5 set matches.

Stan had NOT EVEN WON A SET.

It is MY OPINION Nadal walks away with GS 14 if healthy. I have the perfect right say that IMO he categorically drops the hammer on Stand again barring injury. You don't have to agree. This years final was over before it began.

You are absolutely free to cling to the notion that "anything could have happened".
 

GameSetAndMath

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Sure, you have every right to have your opinion. This time since you clearly say that it
is your opinion and so there is no problem. The problem comes only when people try to
express their opinions as though they were facts.

As for Stan not winning a set before against Rafa, that is a true stat. However, that
does not prevent the possibility of him winning.

For example, JMDP and SW never have won ATP 1000. I even started a thread
about that.There is no rule that says one should first win ATP 1000 before winning
a GS. Similarly, there is no rule that says that you should first win a set and lose the
match, before actually winning a match.

What is getting buried in all these talk is that Stan played Rafa tactfully and
with purpose in that match. That is true independent of whether Rafa was 50%
or 90% that day.
 

Luxilon Borg

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GameSetAndMath said:
Sure, you have every right to have your opinion. This time since you clearly say that it
is your opinion and so there is no problem. The problem comes only when people try to
express their opinions as though they were facts.

As for Stan not winning a set before against Rafa, that is a true stat. However, that
does not prevent the possibility of him winning.

For example, JMDP and SW never have won ATP 1000. I even started a thread
about that.There is no rule that says one should first win ATP 1000 before winning
a GS. Similarly, there is no rule that says that you should first win a set and lose the
match, before actually winning a match.

What is getting buried in all these talk is that Stan played Rafa tactfully and
with purpose in that match. That is true independent of whether Rafa was 50%
or 90% that day.

I have rarely seen total domination with zero sets won magically turned around. Even pigeons like Gilbert and Geruilitus won sets from the the guys that owned them.

There is an easy way to see if this "strategy" theory holds water. Let's see what happens next time Rafa and Stan play, both healthy, in a big match. If it is a Rafa beat down on Stan, we will know that nothing was figured out and it is back to business as usual. If Stan repeats, hey, I will be the first to praise the author of this article.

Here is a little secret..I am glad Stan won, and I am happy he got the job done, injury or no injury. However, that does not change my opinion that the result would have been different if Rafa was normal.
 

GameSetAndMath

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I don't think Stan winning the next match against Rafa is the test of the theory.
In fact, I do not expect him to win their next match.

The question really would be whether Stan plays in a manner that gives him some
chances of winning or he goes down in a predictable and routine manner. I guess,
the later will not be the case.

In the first 12 matches his record was 12-0. If he has "figured it out", I would
expect his record in the next 12 matches to be 6-6 (plus or minus 2) and not
0-12 (that would be completely figuring out how to win as opposed to figuring
a decent strategy that puts you in the mix).

Finally, one should also realize that this "figuring it out" is not a one-time
thing. Even assuming Stan has "figured it out", Rafa is not going to sit quiet.
He will tweak his game to counteract the new found strategy that Stan has
figured out. It is a continuous war of strategies and countermeasures between
players. You surely know such a thing happened between Nadal and Novak.
 

Kieran

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GameSetAndMath said:
p.s. Broken, you wanted examples of people claiming Rafa would have won.
Here you go. LB is an example. If I peer through all those old thread, I will
find many more, but I have better things to do.

You won't, because they don't exist.

Broken called you on it at the time - and you deferred. Maybe you looked back at the time of the thread and saw this: there weren't "many people" claiming Nadal would have won anyway. But you'd prefer to spin the myth and I bet this isn't the last time you do it, either.

The fact is, you don't have to defend this article, you only need to post it, and I already said it's a good idea to post stuff like this - and so what do you do?

Attack me.

Why?

Because I pointed out the obvious flaw: it was one set.

Why not pick out Federer's first set in Paris - on clay! - in 2006, or the match the same year in Rome, where Nadal and Federer both played great at the same time, and Federer won the first set?

Because you can't base a thesis on single set. That's highlight reel analysis, which is silly.

The better examples, as I've shown you, are the Djokovic rivalry, which is sustained and causes Nadal real enduring difficulties.

You say, "oh Federer needs help, he keeps losing."

Well, he's won a third of his matches with Rafa, more or less. Stan has played one great set.

Now go on and blame me again.

Let's look at the Stanimal-solutions he suggests:

#1. Be more a grinder, like Nadal
#2. Patience in coming to the net
#3. Slice the backhand wide to Rafa's forehand
#4. Mix up returns

Now, are any of these new? And has Federer already tried them? Can he apply them? And would they hold up under five sets of brutality?

They're questions worth asking, but Federer is getting old now, so can he grind it out? Does he have the physical facility to be patient in coming to the net? Surely he should be looking more to take Rafa's time away, and not get bogged down in trying to out-rally him.

Can he slice and dice for five sets?
 

Front242

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All the Stan would have lost if Rafa was 100% bored me so much to tears I skipped most of it. Fact is, Nadal barely beat Wawrinka at the WTF a few months ago and remember how many people claimed that eventhough it was Nadal's worst surface, he was looking to be a favourite to win the tournament last year given his form prior to that. 7-6(5) 7-6(6) was the score that day. Hugely convincing alright. A few points reversed and Stan would've won that by the exact same scoreline, so no, it's not a given Nadal would've won the AO at all..
 

Kieran

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Fact is, Front, there was no "Stan would have lost if Rafa was 100%" for you to skip, that's just a myth that GS&M was the first to peddle, and when Broken called him on it, he didn't back it up - because he couldn't. Go back and look, and for the record, I saw NO Nadal fans say this.

If people say something often enough, then they start to believe it, which has nothing to do with what's actually verifiably true.

Staying with the OP, do you think any of those points can be applied by Federer? Or have been?

I haven't seen anyone agree with it yet...
 

Front242

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Kieran said:
Fact is, Front, there was no "Stan would have lost if Rafa was 100%" for you to skip, that's just a myth that GS&M was the first to peddle, and when Broken called him on it, he didn't back it up - because he couldn't. Go back and look, and for the record, I saw NO Nadal fans say this.

If people say something often enough, then they start to believe it, which has nothing to do with what's actually verifiably true.

Staying with the OP, do you think any of those points can be applied by Federer? Or have been?

I haven't seen anyone agree with it yet...

I actually didn't even read the article, but without even looking the main difference between both Stan and Fed is obviously Stan's far stronger backhand. The power he generates with it is nuts. Sure, Fed gets a bit much of a slagging over his BH as he does hit some nice shots with it from time to time, but overall Stan's DTL BH is just a much more potent shot than Fed's. And of course Fed's BH used to be much better. Tons of shanks these days from that wing.

Also, Stan's BH doesn't result in him being pinned in the corner like Fed so, again, without even reading anything, that's why they can have totally different game plans against Rafa. For Fed to win now he has to serve like a maniac. His Cincy match last year was almost a vintage Fed display till 4-4 2nd set when he explicably played a terrible service game to lose serve and subsequently threw the whole match away. He served brilliantly till 4-4 2nd set that day though and making sure he doesn't throw away gifts like that would already go some way towards helping him beat Rafa.

When he serves well usually that confidence usually carries over to his FH too. Case in point, their AO match this year...Fed did not serve well at all and lack of confidence in his service games transferred to his FH and his whole game was off. Volleying was atrocious too.

Stan was good at biding his time in rallies and when he'd opened up the court with Rafa running out wide one direction he hit DTL shots the other way. Fed has of course done this before too but his BH is seldom good enough these days to employ that tactic successfully for long before the shanks appear.

The way I see it you have one old guy who admittedly started the year better than expected but isn't completely confident in his game versus a guy in his prime (he may be 28 but this is Stan's prime and many players are peaking at this age these days) and bursting with confidence. That confidence is the difference between both of them and no strategy can buy you confidence imo. You either gain it as Stan has or lose it as Fed has. And Stan may have had low confidence having never taken a set off Rafa before but he also knew how close some of those TB sets and other close sets had been. Finally beating Novak at the AO brought that confidence sky high and that's why he played so well imo.

To have mentally been in any position to challenge Rafa, Fed needed to win their recent WTF match. The fact that he played so poorly there and didn't even win a set on his best surface meant he came into this match against Rafa feeling less confident than usual.
 

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Well, I dunno if GS&M will agree but I condensed the articles suggestions into these four headings:

#1. Be more a grinder, like Nadal
#2. Patience in coming to the net
#3. Slice the backhand wide to Rafa's forehand
#4. Mix up returns

Obviously, there are descriptions of how these worked for Stan, but I agree with you: Stan's backhand is a thing of beauty and he can trace them down the line effectively, which is the usual way of getting Rafa out of that forehand corner, where he loves to wield the bully club and batter one-handers into submission.

Nole was probably the first to have great success with this opening up of the court by playing into Rafa's backhand, and Nole also has an exceptional backhand.

Federer's backhand isn't bad, but he stands his ground and tries to play Rafa at Rafa's game, which is trading off his weaker wing onto the lefty's strength. It hasn't been successful so far, and over the years there have been lots of suggestions like the 4 above as to what Roger can do to change this.

I'm sure he's tried everything, from taking it early, angling it, drop-shots, driving it down the line, taking Rafa's time away, etc. None of these have been sustained over five sets - and I remind the thread again, that Roger has done this successfully on clay for a set in the FO final in 2006.

You're right: Stan was good at biding his time, but Federer looked gassed after long rallies against Rafa, so again, is patience and grinding really an option?

I would still fancy Roger to win more than Stan against Rafa going forward, and this is why I think the article is unfair to Federer: you don't just flaunt one great set in Federer's face and tell him to try copy it. The man has done more - and better - for much longer than this...
 

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Come now, folks, we all know that if Rafa was 100% healthy 100% of the time, he'd be 974-0 for his career rather than 669-130.
 

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Front242 said:
All the Stan would have lost if Rafa was 100% bored me so much to tears I skipped most of it. Fact is, Nadal barely beat Wawrinka at the WTF a few months ago and remember how many people claimed that eventhough it was Nadal's worst surface, he was looking to be a favourite to win the tournament last year given his form prior to that. 7-6(5) 7-6(6) was the score that day. Hugely convincing alright. A few points reversed and Stan would've won that by the exact same scoreline, so no, it's not a given Nadal would've won the AO at all..

Straight sets = barely beating? That's new. I wonder what a 7-6 in the third scoreline count as. And no, a few points in reverse would have meant Stan wins the FIRST set, in which case the second set would have played out differently because the scoreline is different, and both players' attitude/approach is different. When I say different, maybe Nadal would have folded and Wawrinka won 6-2 (unlikely), or Nadal raised his level because he had no other choice... You can't attribute TWO whole sets to a different player if few points played out differently because if the first set went the other way, the complexion of the match would have been different.
 

brokenshoelace

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Front242 said:
To have mentally been in any position to challenge Rafa, Fed needed to win their recent WTF match. The fact that he played so poorly there and didn't even win a set on his best surface meant he came into this match against Rafa feeling less confident than usual.

Federer crushed Nadal 6-3 6-0 in the 2011 WTF. Lost to him anyway at the 2012 AO. Confidence was not the real issue. They've played enough times for us to determine that.
 

brokenshoelace

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And GMS, ONE GUY said Nadal would have won if he was healthy. OMG, alert the media!
 

Front242

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Broken_Shoelace said:
Front242 said:
To have mentally been in any position to challenge Rafa, Fed needed to win their recent WTF match. The fact that he played so poorly there and didn't even win a set on his best surface meant he came into this match against Rafa feeling less confident than usual.

Federer crushed Nadal 6-3 6-0 in the 2011 WTF. Lost to him anyway at the 2012 AO. Confidence was not the real issue. They've played enough times for us to determine that.

That's true but he played a much better match at the AO 2012 all the same. But then you'd expect him to be better 2 years ago than now at this elevated stage of his career anyway.
 

GameSetAndMath

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Kieran said:
Well, I dunno if GS&M will agree but I condensed the articles suggestions into these four headings:

#1. Be more a grinder, like Nadal
#2. Patience in coming to the net
#3. Slice the backhand wide to Rafa's forehand
#4. Mix up returns

Obviously, there are descriptions of how these worked for Stan, but I agree with you: Stan's backhand is a thing of beauty and he can trace them down the line effectively, which is the usual way of getting Rafa out of that forehand corner, where he loves to wield the bully club and batter one-handers into submission.

Nole was probably the first to have great success with this opening up of the court by playing into Rafa's backhand, and Nole also has an exceptional backhand.


#1. I don't like your cryptic description of number 1. It sounds as though we are talking
about mindless baseline rallies. However, your further explanation shown above is
precise. As all of us know, Rafa forehand to Fed backhand rally just won't work
as a form of grinding. It is just a matter of how many shots are needed before
Fed's BH gives up. The only way to get out of this is to play DTL back hand
and then pin Rafa in the backhand spot and be a grinder in that. Of course,
this is easier said than done for Fed. Besides, this aspect of the problem is
nothing new. Everyone in the world knows this aspect of Fed's problem with
Rafa.

#2 This is something that can possibly be improved. The problem is just because
one does not like to engage in lengthy baseline rallies, one cannot come forward
on poor approach shots especially against a good passer like Murray or Rafa.
Why Fed was able to come in so often and successfully against Murray, but
not against Rafa? With Murray, Fed seems to have the confidence to hang in
the base line rallies and so even though he may come in a lot of times, he
does so on his terms, but not out of desperation to avoid rallies. On the
other hand, against Rafa he comes in out of desperation to avoid rallies.
This issue is obviously connected to issue #1. To avoid coming in out of
desperation, one must build little more strength in issue #1.

#3. I think Fed's slices get thoroughly punished when they sit in the middle
of the court. That is why the suggestion of makeing sure that slice
wide to Rafa's forehand. But, I guess this is affected by lack of
(upper body?) strength in back hand strokes. If that be the case
nothing much can be done about this.

#4. Of all the issues mentioned in the article, I think this is where Fed
can show the maximum improvement. His return position certainly
does not seem to vary much with the opponent and also with a
specific opponent over the course of a match. On the contrary,
I have seen Rafa make beautiful adjustments to his return position
during the course of the match (I don't know whether he does it
by himself or gets signals; but we will leave that for another day).
This (rafa making beautiful adjustments in return position) is clearly
evident if you watch the 2013 Cincy match between Rafa and Roger.


To summarize, IMO all the four suggestions are on the mark. But,
whether Fed can act on them, is another story. #1 is probably the most
difficult to fix for Fed at this time of his life and the point in the rivalry.
As long as #1 issue is there (which I just now said will always be there),
it would be difficult to be disciplined in coming in.

However, IMO #3 and #4 are certainly something that Fed could use.
In particular, #4 is definitely something that Fed can work on.

p.s. Whenever I am posting an article, it does not mean that I agree with
everything said in the article. However, it does mean that I think the article
is worthy of being discussed by us in this forum. I read lot of other articles
which I don't find interesting and/or to be of value. I don't start threads
on every article that I encounter.

p.s.2. Unbelievably, we finally have one or two posts (after more than 25
posts on asterisk and injury) talking about actual tactics and their
effectivness and the possibility of deployment.
 

DarthFed

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Stan has big power and Roger simply doesn't. It might be a bit much to say Stan has a better serve than Roger overall but against Rafa it is more effective because he has more power and Roger clearly doesn't place the ball like he used to, nor does he hit a good percentage. Stronger one hander, stronger serve, that alone is enough to make him more of a challenge than Roger at this point. The latter hasn't even challenged Rafa at a slam since at least 09.
 

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GSM: I appreciate your frustration that there hasn't been enough discussion of tactics as to how to combat Nadal, but the thing that kind of "derailed" your thread, IMO, was the set-up, by the blogger you quote, and in your subject title, in the notion that Federer needs to be taught how to play Nadal, and that Wawrinka could school him. Obviously, that sets lots of teeth on edge. If you offer it as a broader point, and some notions of how to play Nadal, perhaps you'll get a more tactical, and dispassionate, conversation.
 

Kieran

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GameSetAndMath said:
#1. I don't like your cryptic description of number 1. It sounds as though we are talking
about mindless baseline rallies. However, your further explanation shown above is
precise. As all of us know, Rafa forehand to Fed backhand rally just won't work
as a form of grinding. It is just a matter of how many shots are needed before
Fed's BH gives up. The only way to get out of this is to play DTL back hand
and then pin Rafa in the backhand spot and be a grinder in that. Of course,
this is easier said than done for Fed. Besides, this aspect of the problem is
nothing new. Everyone in the world knows this aspect of Fed's problem with
Rafa.

Well, I probably paraphrased too neatly from the article, because he doesn't just simply recommend macho-man grinding, but herein lies the problem - and maybe contradiction - of the article. As you say, Roger needs to play the DTL backhand, which is difficult in the position he's in, high on his own backhand, but also contradicts solution #3, which is to open the court by playing wide to Rafa's backhand.

Now I know, these are just details of how to get the same end, which is to get Rafa into his backhand corner and eventually open up the forehand side for the winner. This is the default Nole strategy, but I suggest it's a difficult one for Roger to play. The weight of Rafa's forehand means that this, and option 3, become matters of extreme precision and timing for Federer.

As you've noted here:

GameSetAndMath said:
#3. I think Fed's slices get thoroughly punished when they sit in the middle
of the court. That is why the suggestion of makeing sure that slice
wide to Rafa's forehand. But, I guess this is affected by lack of
(upper body?) strength in back hand strokes
. If that be the case
nothing much can be done about this.

Fact is, playing one down the middle is the high percentage shot, and who can blame him?

But why not a suggestion that he takes more risks on the backhand? Why rally with the king of rally? Why not try be more abrupt and take it earlier and force Rafa out of his comfort zone?

I know....he's tried that.


GameSetAndMath said:
#4. Of all the issues mentioned in the article, I think this is where Fed
can show the maximum improvement. His return position certainly
does not seem to vary much with the opponent and also with a
specific opponent over the course of a match.

The option of varying his returns is something I think he's tried. A problem for Federer is that Rafa's serve is an extension of the rally, he's so clever at placing it where he needs, in order to construct the rally the way he wants it. Rafa starts boxing the opponent off from the very first shot, almost as if he has the endgame of the rally in sight.

GameSetAndMath said:
To summarize, IMO all the four suggestions are on the mark. But,
whether Fed can act on them, is another story.

Think of it this way: all the suggestion deal with how Federer can deal with Nadal. They say he has to adapt. That's fair enough. But what about what Federer does to force Nadal to deal with him? Isn't tennis at the highest level about forcing your game on the opponent? Federer serves for 50% of the games, and yet the whole match is played on Rafa's terms. Even in Federer's service games, we wonder how he can keep out of the backhand corner.

What can Roger do to impose himself on Rafa? And what hasn't he done, given that now the years are behind him and it's unlikely he's gonna be a backcourt grafter? This is the mystery of their rivalry to me. Not what Federer can learn from watching vids of other players - but what he could have learned from what he himself was able to do to everybody else -

except Nadal...
 

Moxie

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^In the end, I think Kieran is right. Roger hasn't been able to impose his game on Rafa. And this blog is the latest in a long list of schemes for how Federer will finally get the best of Nadal. If there were really an answer, don't you think Tony Roche or Paul Annacone would have identified the same thing? For Roger, it's a difficult match-up. For Wawrinka, it's not the same, and we'll see how that next one plays out. For the rest of the field, they might take pointers from this blog, if they can pull it off. But that's the question. If it were easy, Federer would do it.