General Doping/PEDs Discussion

[Front242]

There have been matches in the last decade where it's just not physically possible to not be even the slightest bit tired the next day but some of the players out there on both the ATP and WTA tour may be fooling a lot of people but they're not fooling me. This super human recovery is just that...super human. And not natural. If you absolutely kill yourself in the gym or cycle a huge distance one day (without the help of all that cyclists in the Tour De France use - I'm talking normal people here), there's no chance of being fresh as a daisy the next day. None. Likewise going all out on chest or legs in the gym today and expecting to do the same again next day on the same body parts is pretty much not happening without drugs.

Going back to the 5% difference I mentioned at the top level though...if both players are pretty fit already, the benefit to the fitter guy/gal is also 5% higher so it's pretty much game over in a long match decided by physicality. I also think there's probably more PED abuse and blood doping in women's tennis than men's.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I still can't see or understand how peds can enhance skills. I think skills are something you learn or gain with practice and innovation.

It does not. However, in tennis, to be able to use the skills that you have, you have to be fit. I always say tennis is played with feet, more than hands. If you are not in the right position to make a shot, you will not make that shot. PEDs will get you in that position to make the right shot that maybe without them you would be too tired to get to.

And of course the recovery time advantage is huge.

PEDs will not help you hit a better backhand DTL, but they will give you the chance to be in the position to make the shot.

 

[Front242]

A really eye opening article about doping by the Russian Olympic team that should educate even those who believe doping is just a figment of people's imagination. A great insightful read and you can bet this is most definitely not confined to only Olympic athletes.

"A documentary screened on the German TV network MDR on Wednesday night alleges not only that up to “99%” of the Russian Olympic team use doping but also that a network of corruption has been put in place to cover up positive tests, involving officials at the Russian anti-doping agency, the doping control laboratory in Moscow, as well as the International Association of Athletics Federations."

"Russia came top of the medal table at the winter Olympics in Sochi this year, ahead of Norway and Canada, and none of their athletes was tested as positive during the event."

“You have to dope, that’s how it works in Russia,” Stepanov said. “Functionaries and coaches tell you very clearly that you can only get so far with your natural skills. In order to get medals, you need help. And that help is doping.”

In the documentary Stepanova says she was frequently encouraged by her coaches to keep “clean” urine samples in a freezer for tests during training. At the Russian athletics championships she was instructed to text the number of her urine sample to an official, after which she would be able to “sleep in peace”

“If it was an unknown athlete, the test remained positive,” he said, “but when it is someone famous, or someone young and a medal hopeful, then it’s a mistake, and it’s not reported. <---- sounds like what they're doing in tennis 'cos let's be honest here, Cilic pre USO 2014 was pretty much a nobody. Former top ten sure but not top 10 when he tested positive and Troicki was likewise not ranked in the top 10 when he refused his test. This only reaffirms my belief that since the ITF govern their own sport (how moronic is that as we all know by now) there's no chance of them exposing top players because the damage to their perceived clean sport image would be destroyed.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/dec/03/russia-accused-athletics-doping-cover-up-olympics

 

[Kieran]

Buddy, we all agree that the ITF shouldn't be policing the sport, but neither Cilic nor Troicki were "nobodies" when they were done.

And speaking of Nobody, there's Nobody here who thinks drug taking is a figment of people's imagination. It's a serious issue and something that has to be tackled with the most serious consequences for proven offenders. Policing is the first part, and we all agree that WADA should be called in.

As for Russia, well... :cover

 

[Front242]

^ There are many who believe PEDs won't help in tennis but that couldn't be further from the truth. At least Pat Cash knows the score.

"
It’s the perfect sport to take performance enhancing drugs, with the recovery, strengthening etc, but I think the lack of positive results shows that tennis is a clean sport."

http://road.cc/content/news/70188-pat-cash-tennis-perfect-sport-take-performance-enhancing-drugs%E2%80%9D

 

[Front242]

^ Shame about the the comment about it being a clean sport though!

 

[tented]

^ Shame about the the comment about it being a clean sport though!

And you were doing so well ...

The number of players who have been caught in possession of a banned substance and/or failed a drugs test can practically be counted on one hand -- Cilic, Canas, Odesnik, and a few others. So few, in fact, I can't remember anymore without going to Google. (I'm not including Troicki, since his infraction didn't involve any proof of his actually doping.)

In other words, a handful out of thousands and thousands and thousands of players does not justify your comment implying tennis is not a clean sport. Cycling is not a clean sport; tennis is.

 

[Front242]

^ Shame about the the comment about it being a clean sport though!

And you were doing so well ...

The number of players who have been caught in possession of a banned substance and/or failed a drugs test can practically be counted on one hand -- Cilic, Canas, Odesnik, and a few others. So few, in fact, I can't remember anymore without going to Google. (I'm not including Troicki, since his infraction didn't involve any proof of his actually doping.)

In other words, a handful out of thousands and thousands and thousands of players does not justify your comment implying tennis is not a clean sport. Cycling is not a clean sport; tennis is.

I think that article shows how easy it is to beat the system. Especially since tennis has some of the worst doping controls in sport so passing tests means absolutely nothing. That was the whole point here. Most likely tennis is about as clean as mud which saddens me but it's the ITF's own fault.

 

[tented]

^ Shame about the the comment about it being a clean sport though!

And you were doing so well ...

The number of players who have been caught in possession of a banned substance and/or failed a drugs test can practically be counted on one hand -- Cilic, Canas, Odesnik, and a few others. So few, in fact, I can't remember anymore without going to Google. (I'm not including Troicki, since his infraction didn't involve any proof of his actually doping.)

In other words, a handful out of thousands and thousands and thousands of players does not justify your comment implying tennis is not a clean sport. Cycling is not a clean sport; tennis is.

I think that article shows how easy it is to beat the system. Especially since tennis has some of the worst doping controls in sport so passing tests means absolutely nothing. That was the whole point here. Most likely tennis is about as clean as mud which saddens me but it's the ITF's own fault.

There is absolutely no empirical evidence to support this notion that tennis is as unclean as cycling -- or worse. You're creating something out of nothing. The most likely explanation is that tennis is clean. That you have evidence of.

 

[Front242]

We'll agree to disagree. I never said it was as bad as cycling but when you have practically non existent doping controls, to call the sport clean is just being naive I'm afraid.

 

[Kieran]

You don't have "non existent doping controls": two top pros were banned last year. We have an unsatisfactory system, but that isn't proof the sport is unclean. It's only proof that the system is unsatisfactory. We're going round in circles with this thing, since everybody agrees there's a problem with the testing being done by the ITF...

 

[Front242]

You don't have "non existent doping controls": two top pros were banned last year. We have an unsatisfactory system, but that isn't proof the sport is unclean. It's only proof that the system is unsatisfactory. We're going round in circles with this thing, since everybody agrees there's a problem with the testing being done by the ITF...

You'd want to be an idiot to fail a test in tennis since they barely test anyone. The number of tests is practically non existent compared to most sports out there and those 2 weren't high profile names and hence why they made an example of them. Of course a sport where people know they most likely aren't going to get caught is unclean. It's the ITF way to make headline news out of relative nobodies. Pre US Open 2014 tell me one big tournament Cilic ever won and likewise list one high profile tournament Troicki ever won. I'll help. None.

 

[Kieran]

Brother, nobody wins anything except the chosen few, before this season.

I'll lead you gently back to a post of mine in which we're both loudly in agreement. The solution is WADA. There's nothing more to be said, really...

 

[Front242]

That's cool, I know we agree on WADA but I stand by saying that if it's simple to not get caught then of course people cheat in tennis. It's unfortunate but that's the reality.

 

[tented]

You don't have "non existent doping controls": two top pros were banned last year. We have an unsatisfactory system, but that isn't proof the sport is unclean. It's only proof that the system is unsatisfactory. We're going round in circles with this thing, since everybody agrees there's a problem with the testing being done by the ITF...

You'd want to be an idiot to fail a test in tennis since they barely test anyone. The number of tests is practically non existent compared to most sports out there and those 2 weren't high profile names and hence why they made an example of them. Of course a sport where people know they most likely aren't going to get caught is unclean. It's the ITF way to make headline news out of relative nobodies. Pre US Open 2014 tell me one big tournament Cilic ever won and likewise list one high profile tournament Troicki ever won. I'll help. None.

Why didn't Cilic win the AO? Or RG? Or Wimbledon? Or all three? Come to think of it, shouldn't he have won a calendar slam?

 

[Front242]

Maybe he was only on the good stuff for a single cycle.

 

[brokenshoelace]

There have been matches in the last decade where it's just not physically possible to not be even the slightest bit tired the next day but some of the players out there on both the ATP and WTA tour may be fooling a lot of people but they're not fooling me. This super human recovery is just that...super human. And not natural. If you absolutely kill yourself in the gym or cycle a huge distance one day (without the help of all that cyclists in the Tour De France use - I'm talking normal people here), there's no chance of being fresh as a daisy the next day. None. Likewise going all out on chest or legs in the gym today and expecting to do the same again next day on the same body parts is pretty much not happening without drugs.

Name examples. Name names. Stop being so vague.

 

[Front242]

It's against the forum rules.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

There have been matches in the last decade where it's just not physically possible to not be even the slightest bit tired the next day but some of the players out there on both the ATP and WTA tour may be fooling a lot of people but they're not fooling me. This super human recovery is just that...super human. And not natural. If you absolutely kill yourself in the gym or cycle a huge distance one day (without the help of all that cyclists in the Tour De France use - I'm talking normal people here), there's no chance of being fresh as a daisy the next day. None. Likewise going all out on chest or legs in the gym today and expecting to do the same again next day on the same body parts is pretty much not happening without drugs.

Name examples. Name names. Stop being so vague.

I thought it was against the policy of TF to name as any such naming would be considered
slandering and accusing specific players of doping. Isn't that right tented? Or is this a way of
inciting folks to do banned things on the forum.

 

[Front242]

^ It is and that's why I didn't take the bait.