General Doping/PEDs Discussion

[Front242]

A long rally for Pete Sampras meant he had to hit a second serve.

And Pete did none of the business on clay that Federer does. Rafa does none of the indoor stuff. Borg was gone aged 25.

Roger is exceptional. Good genes, I'd say...

Borg was not physically burnt out. He said he lost his love for the game. That's got nothing to do with physical burnout or injury. I for one wish he played longer but he probably knew what was best for him. As for Sampras, he had slowed down quite a bit and his back got the better of him in his final years but he also hit a harder serve than Roger so most likely the extra exertion in his service motion didn't help.

 

[Kieran]

Your hypocrisies are noted, brother.

I'm going to leave this thread because it's veering way off topic and will cause the same problems it did before. Let's leave personal bias and prejudice at the door when we post here again, eh?

 

[Front242]

Your hypocrisies are noted, brother.

I'm going to leave this thread because it's veering way off topic and will cause the same problems it did before. Let's leave personal bias and prejudice at the door when we post here again, eh?

There's no hypocrisy whatsoever here. You've been going on and on about Federer's stamina for ages now but anyone who watches tennis would tell you Federer has never been known for his stamina. He's the most likely of all the current top players to run out of gas in a long match and this has been the case for quite a few years. Seems many Nadal fans are jealous and have a hard time with the fact that Federer wins matches much more easily than Nadal does. He plays more attacking tennis and that's all there is to it. If Nadal were to change his game style he'd likely win matches more easily and quicker too and stay healthy longer. He made that choice himself. Roger doesn't often win matches that go on and on forever and pretty much never has as stamina was never one of his core skills.

 

[Front242]

^ What you mean is durability more than stamina and that comes as a direct result of not staying on court for anywhere near as long as many more defensive, grinding type players. He's stayed relatively injury free because he plays aggressively and wins matches quickly for the most part and that is testament to his style of play.

 

[Kieran]

Front, the chap has played 1200 matches, has set records for going deep in majors, has hardly skipped a tourney in his whole career, and played 85 matches this year, aged 33. And you say stamina has nothing to do with it? Endurance is stamina. The guy is incredible. He set more records in tennis than anyone set in other sports, and he's still in the top 2. Like I say, you'd explain this through a dozen links by now, if he was Spanish.

And like I said - and you agreed - any sport that has seen virtually all its records annihilated in a single generation would be wise to call in an outside agency to test for drugs.

You agreed with this, because it's common sense. Cycling, athletics, if it happened there, we'd go crazy with cynicism. Now, I don't say Federer is on drugs. Nor do I say Nadal is, because he's also part of this incredible generation.

But I do say that an outside agency should be looking at things, if only to keep the sport above suspicion.

Agreed? You did before. Are we still agreeing on this? Because if we're not, I wonder why...

 

[Front242]

Front, the chap has played 1200 matches, has set records for going deep in majors, has hardly skipped a tourney in his whole career, and played 85 matches this year, aged 33. And you say stamina has nothing to do with it? Endurance is stamina. The guy is incredible. He set more records in tennis than anyone set in other sports, and he's still in the top 2. Like I say, you'd explain this through a dozen links by now, if he was Spanish.

And like I said - and you agreed - any sport that has seen virtually all its records annihilated in a single generation would be wise to call in an outside agency to test for drugs.

You agreed with this, because it's common sense. Cycling, athletics, if it happened there, we'd go crazy with cynicism. Now, I don't say Federer is on drugs. Nor do I say Nadal is, because he's also part of this incredible generation.

But I do say that an outside agency should be looking at things, if only to keep the sport above suspicion.

Agreed? You did before. Are we still agreeing on this? Because if we're not, I wonder why...

That's not stamina, that's down to his style that wins matches more easily and efficiently than guys who scramble miles behind the baseline and run left and right like gazelles point after point. If he played like that he'd likely be missing tournaments too but he chose a different path, one which wins matches quicker. Re not being Spanish, find me a link that shows there's known corruption in Switzerland for doping and I'll be delighted to read it, unlike Spain for which a ton of results pop up immediately. That's not to say all Spanish players are doping which I never said, but it's clear as a blue sky that Spain has a problem with doping. Their prime minister even admitted it. I've posted links before which show doping wasn't even a crime in Spain before 2006 or something like that which is plain insane.

 

[Kieran]

Buddy, drugs can be taken anywhere. They're not specific to a race of people. You know that's racist, right? Federer can afford a plane, I'm sure he can afford a program. Now, I'm not saying he is, I'm just pointing out the simple-minded stupidity behind this argument.

Playing 1200 matches is fairly incredible. Sampras was showing evidence of burn out aged 27, and Pete's rallies were so short that if he took three shots in a rally, they'd replay it for years. Come on, Federer played Wimbledon from the baseline, FFS. :Lolz: He wasn't playing short rallies. And Rafa is already showing severe signs of body fatigue. Your guy skipped a huge final one week - and we're supposed to accept him fully fit a week later?

Tell me the truth - if Rafa did that you'd be posting links and bragging about "miracle treatments".

I'm not here trying to blacken Federer - I'm pointing out your obvious bias and inconsistencies. All of these players are highly motivated and exceptionally driven. They shouldn't be treated with suspicion so easily. Or - if one is, then they all should be.

Do you still agree with me that any sport which saw virtually all its records ripped to shreds within a single generation should call in outside help, in order to show that things are on the level?

Are we on the same page there, at least?

 

[Front242]

Buddy, drugs can be taken anywhere. They're not specific to a race of people. You know that's racist, right? Federer can afford a plane, I'm sure he can afford a program. Now, I'm not saying he is, I'm just pointing out the simple-minded stupidity behind this argument.

Playing 1200 matches is fairly incredible. Sampras was showing evidence of burn out aged 27, and Pete's rallies were so short that if he took three shots in a rally, they'd replay it for years. Come on, Federer played Wimbledon from the baseline, FFS. :Lolz: He wasn't playing short rallies. And Rafa is already showing severe signs of body fatigue. Your guy skipped a huge final one week - and we're supposed to accept him fully fit a week later?

Tell me the truth - if Rafa did that you'd be posting links and bragging about "miracle treatments".

I'm not here trying to blacken Federer - I'm pointing out your obvious bias and inconsistencies. All of these players are highly motivated and exceptionally driven. They shouldn't be treated with suspicion so easily. Or - if one is, then they all should be.

Do you still agree with me that any sport which saw virtually all its records ripped to shreds within a single generation should call in outside help, in order to show that things are on the level?

Are we on the same page there, at least?

And why do you think Rafa is showing severe signs of body fatigue besides what I've already mentioned? He played most of his career running like a gazelle left and right at high speed, grinding on the baseline and there's a price to pay for that. Federer chose a more intelligent style of play in terms of keeping himself in good nick over the years and that again comes down to choice. Quite likely uncle Toni said Rafa doesn't have the same skill set in terms of ability to hit winners from anywhere on the court as Roger does so they tailored his game into a more physical style to beat Roger. Toni has already gone on record for saying they devised Rafa's game around beating Roger but it came with a price. Federer skipping a final and being fully fit the next week is a surprise?! I couldn't even stand up from back pain one day last year which I put down to a crap new chair in the office and yet I was 100% better next day after staying in bed till 5 pm taking anti inflammatories and even went back to the gym the following day and guess which body part I worked on? No $h1t...my back. I wanted to strengthen it. It was just a back spasm Roger had and these come and go in flash and so did mine so I can 100% relate to that.

And yes, we're definitely in agreement about the need for WADA to clean up tennis.

 

[Kieran]

And yes, we're definitely in agreement about the need for WADA to clean up tennis.

Good. And we both might be surprised by what they would or wouldn't find. All the rest of it, the speculation and suspicion, is just fanbase stuff...

 

[Front242]

Interesting article here entitled "When doping isn't cheating"

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/opinion/sunday/when-doping-isnt-cheating.html?_r=0

 

[brokenshoelace]

By the way, I wonder how Nadal and Djokovic looked ready to pass out at this year's FO, which was a 4-setter, and not even an especially draining one. Bad batch of PEDs? They must contact their dealers ASAP.

If you've ever seen guys on gear in the gym all pumped up when on and then see what they really look like when off that would answer that. You can't be on all year, hence why they're called cycles.

This is a joke. You'd think they'd need the drugs the most around the time for majors. They must have really $hitty cycles.

You do realize the amount of flawed theorizing and laughably unfounded arguments you make, right?

 

[Front242]

By the way, I wonder how Nadal and Djokovic looked ready to pass out at this year's FO, which was a 4-setter, and not even an especially draining one. Bad batch of PEDs? They must contact their dealers ASAP.

If you've ever seen guys on gear in the gym all pumped up when on and then see what they really look like when off that would answer that. You can't be on all year, hence why they're called cycles.

This is a joke. You'd think they'd need the drugs the most around the time for majors. They must have really $hitty cycles.

You do realize the amount of flawed theorizing and laughably unfounded arguments you make, right?

Ever consider that eventhough no top player has yet been banned that maybe, just maybe the authorities may have had a quiet word with them and said you need to stop doing what you're doing 'cos we're onto you - you can play but you play clean as you're being watched? And then this is why we're now seeing their normal levels as they came back down to earth.

 

[Front242]

^ Think about it. They used to never get tired before and now they actually show signs of fatigue like normal people and it's not like they're really over the hill just yet. Again, think about it rationally.

 

[Kieran]

^ Think about it. They used to never get tired before and now they actually show signs of fatigue like normal people and it's not like they're really over the hill just yet. Again, think about it rationally.

Yes, like normal people, who've been on a grinding tour. Like Sampras, and Borg, and so many others. Not like players who aren't normal, fleet of foot and playing so much tennis well into their 30's. You could he onto something.

As for your post before this, the "quiet word" post, this is a stupid thing to say, and it undermines your whole illiterate thesis. You want us to believe players are on drugs when they do normal things, like show some wear and tear which is common to all players (bar one) and your logic behind this is to reach for Dan Brown levels of far-fetched nonsense.

Seriously, brother, eat your cornflakes and step away from the keyboard... :cover

 

[Front242]

Er, no. There's zero stupid about it. The point was when they show fatigue/wear and tear it means they're likely not taking anything at the time as we're seeing their normal levels for once and dunno where you're getting wear and tear isn't applicable to one player seeing as he just missed one of the biggest finals of the year and had pretty much a write off year in 2013 due to a bad back.

 

[brokenshoelace]

^ Think about it. They used to never get tired before and now they actually show signs of fatigue like normal people and it's not like they're really over the hill just yet. Again, think about it rationally.

You understand Nadal is no longer a 22 year old physical freak, right? I mean, he's still insanely fit, but obviously he's slowing down due to wear and tear, which is no different to any player ever. That's me thinking about it "rationally."

 

[brokenshoelace]

Er, no. There's zero stupid about it. The point was when they show fatigue/wear and tear it means they're likely not taking anything at the time as we're seeing their normal levels for once and dunno where you're getting wear and tear isn't applicable to one player seeing as he just missed one of the biggest finals of the year and had pretty much a write off year in 2013 due to a bad back.

OK, so I can eaaaaaaaaaaasily play the same stupid card and wonder how Roger suddenly started fading in fifth sets starting 2009 (where he was roughly Nadal's age now) and getting fatigued. But THAT is explained with bad backs, age, and mono, whereas others are on drugs.

Jesus Christ smell your own bias man. I mean literally your whole argument is simply "Nadal was too fit," so he was on PEDs.

Rebuttal: "Well, he's getting tired now."

You: "That's because he's no longer on PEDs"

That is LITERALLY your argument. Not even putting words in your mouth or anything. That's it. No substance. Nothing.

 

[Front242]

For a start I didn't mention any names as there are many players out there ATP and WTA this applies to but since you mentioned Nadal and RG which, as you said yourself wasn't even a physically demanding one, how exactly do you explain that one? This was a fast 4 set match and not a crazy long 5 set one and yet he looked wrecked out there in the 4th set. Djokovic at least has some excuse as he was seen puking as he had a virus that day but what exactly was Nadal's excuse?

 

[kskate2]

Enough Already. Get back on topic.

 

[Kieran]

what exactly was Nadal's excuse?

We don't make excuses when he wins matches, only when he loses. Try keep up.

Good idea, Kskate.

There's an interesting article in today's Sunday Times by david Walsh, lambasting Russian athletics and their in-house testing agency, RUSADA, while also discussing Seb Coe's bid to become an athletics honcho. Coe, apparently, thinks we should all focus on the the life-affirming aspects of sport, though he does acknowledge the drug problem in athletics. walsh wonders if he wouldn't be wiser - and braver - to canvas on an overt anti-drugs message.

Unfortunately, the Sunday Times is behind a paywall, but if you have it, the article makes sobering reading...