General Doping/PEDs Discussion

[Kieran]

RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues

Again, it has to be stated, the Cilic and Troicki cases were different. And not only did the board believe Cilic, but Steve Tignor believed him - having taken time to read the report - and so did Roger Federer. These men have nothing to gain by saying this.

The fact is, drugs is a murky issue, but if suspicion is to be raised, then they're all equally suspicious.

All of them.

Especially the exceptionally high achievers.

We shouldn't be naive to think that tennis players are moral exceptions within the international sporting community. But nor should we be blinded by gossip and misinformation, which is common on this forum. All of the top players could equally be clean.

All of them.

But any sport which has seen virtually all it's records smashed to smithereens within a single generation should be looking to call in an independent body for checks, if only to show the world that it's legit. It's as if the house got wiped in Vegas.

In other sports, if we saw so many records being obliterated, we'd be crying foul, though we might be wrong. But just like the Jamaican athletes and their home testing, the situation isn't clear and the ITF are leaving themselves open to every sort of claim that both they and their sport are corrupt - which leaves us the option everyone agrees on: outsource this stuff to WADA...

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

RE: The Cilic Question and General doping issues

Front,

I have a new issue regarding enhancing players performances which a friend of mine sent me a email to read the other day.It is a issue in football.When I get the link and more information can I post it here.I would like your thoughts.Thanks.

 

[Front242]

^ Sounds good.

 

[Billie]

So you are our resident expert on doping, Front.

 

[Front242]

So you are our resident expert on doping, Front.

Wouldn't say that as I just google stuff like anyone else but it just interests me...mostly because I'd prefer a level playing field and cheats in sport disgust me. But what can we do, they exist in every sport. Can you believe they test more for HGH in "tug of war" an actual sport (!) lol than tennis. That's ridiculous. I know it's a strength sport but they're saying strength doesn't help in tennis? Only 5% of samples are for HGH in tennis. Crazy. Also the idiots test 60% for EPO/blood doping in cycling and only 10% in tennis? Yeah, good one, 'cos clearly stamina and recovery are useless in tennis. The mind boggles what drugs the people who decide these things are on themselves 'cos clearly recovery and stamina are absolutely HUGE in tennis. Lots of good info in that link.

https://wada-main-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/resources/files/wada_td2014ssa_sport_specific_analysis_2.1_en.pdf

 

[Billie]

But that is just it, we can't do anything about it. I guess we can just talk and speculate about it. I am sure that the authorities in tennis are not perfect and there are probably things in tennis that we don't know about. That is true with any kind of politics. After seeing what happened to Viktor, I really don't trust them either and I am pretty sure they would cover anything similar for a big tennis star, but not a nobody like him. :nono

But in case you haven't noticed, I try not to wreck my brain with things I have no control over or influence. I just hope that my players will be smart in following all procedures and that they learned a lot from Viktor's case.

 

[Kieran]

Nah Billie, Troicki was both wrong and stupid, and his coach even more so. He should have taken the test, and avoiding it was irresponsible. He knew this, and so did his coach. He wasn't treated unfairly, there was no conspiracy there, that was all down to him.

Novak's intervention afterwards was both unhelpful and ridiculous. I know he's Troicki's pal, but he didn't need to go so far...

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Nah Billie, Troicki was both wrong and stupid, and his coach even more so. He should have taken the test, and avoiding it was irresponsible. He knew this, and so did his coach. He wasn't treated unfairly, there was no conspiracy there, that was all down to him.

Novak's intervention afterwards was both unhelpful and ridiculous. I know he's Troicki's pal, but he didn't need to go so far...

I agree with this. Troicki should have taken the test. Because if he was clean, no problem anyways and if he was dirty, he could have used the good old " Mom fed me contaminated muffins" excuse and just get a slap on the wrist. Troicki was stupid on many levels there.

 

[Billie]

Being naïve and being stupid sometimes means almost the same thing. I am sure that there are things that we don't know about where players didn't give their samples in timely manner, or something was wrong with them but the authorities kept quiet and then later on things get leaked.

As for Viktor's situation, I am very positive that you would change your tunes if it were one of Roger's or Rafa's close friends. Unless they don't have them or they don't care, which is different then.

How many people crucified poor Milos for not admitting that he touched the net last year, yet Murat was able to understand it.

There was an excellent closing argument in the movie "Time To Kill", if you didn't watch it, I recommend it. The movie is about father's revenge at people who savagely raped his little girl so he killed one of them and is facing a trial. Because he is black and the jury is mainly white, the defense lawyer came with a great closing statement: close your eyes, imagine a little girl beaten and left to die in the pool of mud and her blood................imagine her being white.

Everything in life depends on who you are and what happens to WHOM!

 

[Kieran]

The old victim card, eh?

Fact is, "stupid" isn't confined to race or nationality. If Rafa avoided a test the way Victor did, I'd cease to believe him. Victor shoulda just took the test, he knows the rules, and he knows the consequences. All the protesting about it only made it worse...

 

[Billie]

I am glad I don't have to count on your help for anything then, Kieran

 

[tented]

As for Viktor's situation, I am very positive that you would change your tunes if it were one of Roger's or Rafa's close friends. Unless they don't have them or they don't care, which is different then.

You've negated the possibility of being "very positive" about how Kieran would react by having included Roger in this group.

 

[Billie]

As for Viktor's situation, I am very positive that you would change your tunes if it were one of Roger's or Rafa's close friends. Unless they don't have them or they don't care, which is different then.

You've negated the possibility of being "very positive" about how Kieran would react by having included Roger in this group.

I was talking to both Kieran and Murat (therefore tunes) so that is the reason I included Federer as well.

 

[Kieran]

I am glad I don't have to count on your help for anything then, Kieran

You can count on me for anything - if you're in the right. But I'm totally surprised you're blaming others here. The rules are in place and Victor skipped the test. There's no helping him after this, he has to take his chops. The image of the game, let alone the players actual integrity, is at stake with these tests, and if they fail them or scarper somewhere to avoid the test, then we should be united in crying foul.

Defending him just because he's a Serb is to reduce the truth of these matters to nationalism. Or fandom. We're fans of the sport first, surely? I mean, I've been following tennis for decades. If Rafa was bogey, I'd be hugely disappointed and I'd cease to support him. I may even stop watching tennis for a while, but my love for tennis isn't based solely upon one man.

To give another example, we had a swimmer - Michelle Smith - who won 3 golds in the 1996 Olympics. We were proud as punch and celebrated gratefully. She passed all her tests too, although the whispers about her were very loud. Eventually, long after the Games, she was caught with a contaminated urine sample and banned for 4 years. She kept her medals because she didn't fail any tests at the Olympics, but I don't believe her and am disappointed in her, because she cheated. It doesn't matter to me that she's Irish, and that she protested her innocence after...

 

[Billie]

I don't defend him because he is a Serb, but because I believe him. I don't defend him for what he did, he shouldn't have, I was clear of that. I never said he shouldn't be punished and I never said that it wasn't Viktor's fault. After all, what we do, we have to pay price for our own actions. BTW, why was he even allowed to be excused from the original date of giving a blood sample? To me it should have been clear, you don't give blood today, you will be defaulted on it. Isn't that supposed how it works? Do you for a fact know that every single player gave samples to the testers at exactly the same time and date as they should? I don't know that...considering they allowed Viktor to come back the next day and draw blood from him, I would say that it wasn't the first offence in the ATP history.

Let's say Moxie does something stupid at work and they fire her without any notice or any considerations? Would you say: you Moxie are stupid for doing that and who cares now what happens to you, you are not my friend anymore?uzzled Or would you try to console her and help her, maybe in finding another job? This is just a hypothetical example, sorry Moxie, but you are my best example here considering you and Kieran are good friends.

 

[Billie]

I am glad I don't have to count on your help for anything then, Kieran

To give another example, we had a swimmer - Michelle Smith - who won 3 golds in the 1996 Olympics. We were proud as punch and celebrated gratefully. She passed all her tests too, although the whispers about her were very loud. Eventually, long after the Games, she was caught with a contaminated urine sample and banned for 4 years. She kept her medals because she didn't fail any tests at the Olympics, but I don't believe her and am disappointed in her, because she cheated. It doesn't matter to me that she's Irish, and that she protested her innocence after...

I would feel the same way if one of the athletes I like and support would be found out with dirty tests. But this is not the case here, Viktor's tests have always been clean. If in the future we find out that he failed a test, then I will be disappointed in him and stop supporting him....Until that happens, all my points stand.

 

[Kieran]

Victor is your friend? :snigger

The thing is, nobody put a gun to his head and told him to stay. He's a grown man and he knew that if he left there could be consequences, and he still left. My main problem with this situation is the behaviour of his coach. He should have been the one to tell him, "Victor, man up. This isn't the time," but instead the tribunal accused his coach of being willing to say anything to get his guy off. That's ineffectual and dishonest. His coach should have taken charge of Victor in the room and told him to sit down and be needled.

I don't know what you believe him in. His medical condition? Has he ever mentioned this fear of needles before this?

 

[Kieran]

I am glad I don't have to count on your help for anything then, Kieran

To give another example, we had a swimmer - Michelle Smith - who won 3 golds in the 1996 Olympics. We were proud as punch and celebrated gratefully. She passed all her tests too, although the whispers about her were very loud. Eventually, long after the Games, she was caught with a contaminated urine sample and banned for 4 years. She kept her medals because she didn't fail any tests at the Olympics, but I don't believe her and am disappointed in her, because she cheated. It doesn't matter to me that she's Irish, and that she protested her innocence after...

I would feel the same way if one of the athletes I like and support would be found out with dirty tests. But this is not the case here, Viktor's tests have always been clean. If in the future we find out that he failed a test, then I will be disappointed in him and stop supporting him....Until that happens, all my points stand.

Okay, so if Victor fails a test next year, will you still argue his innocence in this particular incident?

No.

But avoiding a test is similar to failing one...

 

[Billie]

Victor is your friend? :snigger

The thing is, nobody put a gun to his head and told him to stay. He's a grown man and he knew that if he left there could be consequences, and he still left. My main problem with this situation is the behaviour of his coach. He should have been the one to tell him, "Victor, man up. This isn't the time," but instead the tribunal accused his coach of being willing to say anything to get his guy off. That's ineffectual and dishonest. His coach should have taken charge of Victor in the room and told him to sit down and be needled.

I don't know what you believe him in. His medical condition? Has he ever mentioned this fear of needles before this?

Viktor even has medical documentation about his fears of needles. He fainted before while giving blood samples. His father is the same as well.

It does not matter...we will never agree about this, but maybe we encounter a situation where you will be on the side where I am now...just different names.

 

[Kieran]

Victor is your friend? :snigger

The thing is, nobody put a gun to his head and told him to stay. He's a grown man and he knew that if he left there could be consequences, and he still left. My main problem with this situation is the behaviour of his coach. He should have been the one to tell him, "Victor, man up. This isn't the time," but instead the tribunal accused his coach of being willing to say anything to get his guy off. That's ineffectual and dishonest. His coach should have taken charge of Victor in the room and told him to sit down and be needled.

I don't know what you believe him in. His medical condition? Has he ever mentioned this fear of needles before this?

Viktor even has medical documentation about his fears of needles. He fainted before while giving blood samples. His father is the same as well.

It does not matter...we will never agree about this, but maybe we encounter a situation where you will be on the side where I am now...just different names.

There's no player I'd defend in this scenario, so we may just have to agree to disagree...