General Doping/PEDs Discussion

[Front242]

The forums are going bananas since this slam and not about Nadal doping Quite possible they're all taking something to be quite honest though I hope not.

 

[Tennisman12345]

Wrestling has more anti doping control then tennis and wrestling is scripted entertainment....

 

[Kieran]

Wrestling has more anti doping control then tennis and wrestling is scripted entertainment....

Or as our buddy Front has mentioned above about ageing players not getting any older, it's FUBAR. :laydownlaughing. I love that, I used it today in work, people looked at me. :lolz:

 

[Kieran]

With an obvious nod to The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, the story of a man who ages in the opposite direction to the natural progression, this well-reasoned article contains context and details, some of which I wasn't personally aware of:

The Curious Case of Roger Federer

 

[GameSetAndMath]

With an obvious nod to The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, the story of a man who ages in the opposite direction to the natural progression, this well-reasoned article contains context and details, some of which I wasn't personally aware of:

The Curious Case of Roger Federer

A couple of years ago or so when this forum had a heated discussion about Doping, it was you who jumped on Front for posting all kinds of speculative stuff against Rafa. At that time, I defended Front saying he should be allowed to do so as these things are by nature speculation and none of us are close enough to have seen the players actually doping. Then finally TF decided not to allow such speculations claiming it would subject TF to libel suits and then it died.

Now, you are indulging in exactly the same kind of stuff. However, I am not going to jump on you for doing so. Even though I don't agree with the opinions of the author and perhaps yours, I do think it is OK to discuss these things publicly as the people involved are public figures (even though these are pure speculations).

Now, coming to Federer, in AO the match against Stan could have gone either way. In fact, I never believed that Fed would win that match until he actually did. In close matches on big stages, having been there several times (which Fed had been) actually helps. These are intangibles. Finally, if Fed was so buoyant with energy, why he had to take MTO in his match against Stan? That MTO was semi-cheating as Fed himself has kind of openly said.

In Miami, he was definitely tired due to baggage of IW matches and New Miami matches. That is why he did so poorly against RBA. The match against Berdych was a miracle. It was more a case of Berdych losing that match at the end rather Fed going out and winning. The match against Nick could have gone either way. It got decided just by couple of big points. It is not like Fed is crushing everyone out there.

However, I would agree with the contention that doping control in tennis is far from stringent and also that if the powers be caught Fed doping (or for that matter any of the top 5 players caught doping), they would probably let them get away with it due to conflict of interest (just like they did so for Agassi, even though it was not a PED situation). The #1 thing that needs to be done to increase credibility is to separate the testing body from the body that organizes and promotes tennis. The #2 thing to be done is to finance it better so that adequate number of test both on and off the courts can be conducted. Finally, the retroactive tests on stored samples should be conducted as science of testing lags behind science of doping and they should take away GSs if it was found later that someone was doping and won a GS.

 

[Kieran]

Thanks for the reply, bro.

Firstly, this article is in the proper forum, and there's no legal threat to the forum in posting it. If there is, then I'll gladly see it removed. Also, I've read the article several times, so I'm not posting an article and then claiming there are things in the article that aren't in it. It's not a "Nacho-man" moment. It's well argued, and insightful, and it mentions that Federer was targeted the most among a group of players in 2008-2009 for having suspicious blood results. This is in the public domain, though I wasn't aware of it. I think that in itself is worthy of being mentioned in this thread.

The article contains not only speculation, but stats relating to Federer's renewed physical attributes.

Also, his points are worth exploring, especially media silence on something so strange and sudden as Federer's physical resurgence, and his return to 2006 levels. Rightly, he says that if it was Rafa, this would be big news. In fact, he shows that it was big news that Rafa came back from a long absence and won 2 majors (although Rafa didn't win a major immediately, he worked his way slowly back into the game on small foothill clay events), but there's only applause when Federer has done it, because "what they accused Nadal of when he was only 26, can't possible apply to a Federer who is 35."

Plus, I've mentioned that there are fawning articles praising Federer's sudden return to youth, one even asking jokingly if he's bionic, whereas it's proper to wonder how a near-36 year old can suddenly have found ways to endure so well, recover so quickly, improve so sharply, that in fact his season now resembles one he had when he was 25 years old.

Anybody who follows the sport, even the most rabid Federer fans, have to ask themselves the question the author asks: is this too difficult to believe? You would be denying your own critical faculties space to breathe if you didn't dwell even for a moment on that thought. I've often had it regarding to Nadal, and like you, I hold to the same value: that players are innocent until proven guilty, but that we as fans are entitled to query what we see, and we're entitled to a clean, honest sport. I said it before, if Rafa was caught doping, I'd disown him immediately and have him run from the sport. I'd hope you would be equally open to wondering, how the heck is Federer suddenly so able to play so much hard tennis, years after he began to look his age?

I agree completely with your last paragraph, but it's something we all agree with, and have been saying for years...

 

[GameSetAndMath]

The very blog that you are quoting lists not just Federer, but Federer, Novak and Rafa as being tested for EPO due to suspicions. Therefore, if you are going to believe that blog, you should at least say that all three were suspected of using EPO.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

As it had already been pointed out in some other thread, the reason for success of Fed is change in strategy and technique. In particular, taking backhands on the rise and a regular return even on the backhand side as opposed to a passive slice and in general an aggressive mentality. His success did not come due to physical prowess. So, I don't see a prima facie case here.

 

[Kieran]

The very blog that you are quoting lists not just Federer, but Federer, Novak and Rafa as being tested for EPO due to suspicions. Therefore, if you are going to believe that blog, you should at least say that all three were suspected of using EPO.

I read the blog before I posted it: I knew what was in it. I mentioned that he was the most tested among a group of players with suspicious blood levels. But the substance of the blog is about Federer, and his remarkable physical rejuvenation, "like it's something 35-year-old athletes simply do" as he puts it. It's a question worth asking, don't you think?

 

[GameSetAndMath]

The very blog that you are quoting lists not just Federer, but Federer, Novak and Rafa as being tested for EPO due to suspicions. Therefore, if you are going to believe that blog, you should at least say that all three were suspected of using EPO.

I read the blog before I posted it: I knew what was in it. I mentioned that he was the most tested among a group of players with suspicious blood levels. But the substance of the blog is about Federer, and his remarkable physical rejuvenation, "like it's something 35-year-old athletes simply do" as he puts it. It's a question worth asking, don't you think?

Your blog is citing some unknown person (just an individual, not a journalist). As per that all three are tested for EPO due to suspicions. This was supposed to be in 2008/2009. Can you cite an official page of ATP/ITF/WADA or a statement by them where they say that Fed, Rafa and Novak all are suspected and so they are doing EPO tests on them. I doubt it. Don't you think mainstream media would have picked it up and wrote articles about it, when three big name top tennis players are suspected, especially if it was in the public domain as you claim. I highly doubt the credibility of
the sources that are being cited. Having cited a bad source, I also doubt the credibility of the blog.

 

[Front242]

Clearly a blog written by a butthurt Nadal fan who thinks Federer has to be doping since he's beating Nadal easily now. Sigh. Read about improved backhand and first strike tennis much? As for Federer supposedly being tested the most, that's perfectly bleeding obvious. The norm is to test the guy winning the most, duh. It'd be a sad world if they did the opposite.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Clearly a blog written by a butthurt Nadal fan who thinks Federer has to be doping since he's beating Nadal easily now. Sigh. Read about improved backhand and first strike tennis much? As for Federer supposedly being tested the most, that's perfectly bleeding obvious. The norm is to test the guy winning the most, duh. It'd be a sad world if they did the opposite.

Maybe since your are the resident self anointed drug czar, wouldn't it be more prudent if you could take some time to break down every aspect of blogger's blog . If not I would have to agree with Kieran's assessment, the blogger is pretty much on point.

 

[Kieran]

Your blog is citing some unknown person (just an individual, not a journalist). As per that all three are tested for EPO due to suspicions. This was supposed to be in 2008/2009. Can you cite an official page of ATP/ITF/WADA or a statement by them where they say that Fed, Rafa and Novak all are suspected and so they are doing EPO tests on them. I doubt it. Don't you think mainstream media would have picked it up and wrote articles about it, when three big name top tennis players are suspected, especially if it was in the public domain as you claim. I highly doubt the credibility of
the sources that are being cited. Having cited a bad source, I also doubt the credibility of the blog.

Firstly brother - it’s not “my” blog. My name isn’t Christ de Waard.

I posted the blog because it raises valid questions about Federer’s unlikely physical resurgence at the age of 35. And it still does. His remark that 'the media will unironically praise him for adding “staggering stamina” to his game, like it’s something 35 year old athletes simply do' cuts to his main argument, which is media silence and the lack of curiosity into how a 35 year old “simply” did it.

Your point, where you reduce his incredible recovery from long matches, his greatly improved record over five sets, his increased stamina against players as much as 14 years younger than him to “an aggressive mentality” and “taking the backhand on the rise” only begs further questions. It doesn’t make any questions go away.

Is it “something 35 year old athletes simply do?”

If so, name one that has simply increased their stamina and endurance to such an extent after a long absence from their sport, to become as great and aggressive and sharp again, as they were 10, 11 years before. Name one, and let’s see if you and I agree on a few things about the athlete you name. In fact, when Front coined the phrase FUBAR, regarding Federer et al “going back in time and none of them getting any older”, it was quite a telling insight from the lad from Cork, and one I had no hesitation was coming from the right place.

Now, regarding your question about the EPO tests, a very brief research has unearthed this 2009 article in the NY Times, where Stuart Miller, the goon in charge of doping for the ITF is cited:

Tennis still does not conduct many tests for EPO. In 2008, the tennis federation conducted 20 tests for EPO in competition and 32 such tests out of competition. Those numbers appear low, Miller said, because the tests are conducted only if blood screening indicates a player may be using the drug.

Unfortunately, in the same article, the ITF stats link is a 404. Likewise on a link provided by the article, the ITF stats page the writer uses to condemn their own testing is similarly 404. Likewise, other sites which display the same intel and their links are 404.

I've sent out feelers to the author of the blog, and also the person on Twitter who cited it (and another source too, where I'd seen the same statistic regarding the players mentioned), and we'll see if they reply. The ITF's own cite has only records that tests have been done, but no names.

Absence of evidence is famously not evidence of absence - but nor is absence of evidence also proof of evidence, at the same time. I accept this, and I'm no conspiracy theorist, I'm not the sort of person who would draw foolish conclusions from a 404. It simply is what it is. However, I liked your effort to use this as a way of deciding that the other questions in the blog are of doubtful credibility, as if they hinge on this one matter from almost 10 years ago, and aren't about Federer's rejuvenation in 2017, at all. Things unfortunately aren't as simple as that. If a herd of hounds is chasing, throwing one under the bus would make very little difference.

I should point out that all the views in the blog aren't necessarily views I share, and certainly are not the responsibility of Tennis Frontier. My own view hasn't really changed since I posted this a while ago. But I think that anybody with an open mind should be watching the Federer resurgence with interest, and has to at least ask themselves once (if not twice): can we really believe what we're seeing?

 

[GameSetAndMath]

You are repeatedly attributing Fed's resurgence to increased stamina and endurance. However, that is just not the case. In the other thread, me, El Dude and DF broke down the elements of success. Please read through it again. If he is not worried about stamina and endurance, why would he make his game ultra aggressive and try to finish off points in 2 or 3 strokes as Rafa himself has said recently.

 

[Front242]

Clearly a blog written by a butthurt Nadal fan who thinks Federer has to be doping since he's beating Nadal easily now. Sigh. Read about improved backhand and first strike tennis much? As for Federer supposedly being tested the most, that's perfectly bleeding obvious. The norm is to test the guy winning the most, duh. It'd be a sad world if they did the opposite.

Maybe since your are the resident self anointed drug czar, wouldn't it be more prudent if you could take some time to break down every aspect of blogger's blog . If not I would have to agree with Kieran's assessment, the blogger is pretty much on point.

I did and you Nadal fans dismiss just about everything slung his way but, hey, it's perfectly fine for you to think the same about Federer when there's far, far less to go by lol. His recent success is all about first strike tennis and a massively improved backhand. Anyone can see that. As Nadal himself pointed out, Roger is playing 2-3 shots on average. Think you need to dope to hit 2-3 shots lol? :cover It's just because his strategy and adapting to the times is working, the author of that blog and all Nadal fans are so butthurt. He hasn't got any fitter and barely scraped past Berdych and Kyrgios at Miami but they weren't draining matches and likewise, as has been mentioned by many including myself, I didn't expect him to beat Wawrinka at the AO. Quite where the fitness and stamina being cited is supposedly coming from, I've no idea 'cos he's looked down and out many times. He's playing smarter, winning matches by playing way more aggressively which conserves energy and you don't end up all out of breath from hitting aces and blasting winners.

Bottom line: just 'cos Nadal has failed to make any major changes to his game and is still happily grinding away at almost 31 doesn't mean someone with a better approach for longevity and less wear and tear should come under scrutiny for having both the foresight and ability to win matches quicker and easier by playing shorter points. Oh and one more time for good measure, duh.

 

[Kieran]

You are repeatedly attributing Fed's resurgence to increased stamina and endurance. However, that is just not the case. In the other thread, me, El Dude and DF broke down the elements of success. Please read through it again. If he is not worried about stamina and endurance, why would he make his game ultra aggressive and try to finish off points in 2 or 3 strokes as Rafa himself has said recently.

Buddy, you can't just add "ultra aggression" to your game, just like that, "as if that's something 35 year old athletes simply do." You're ignoring the age factor. You're ignoring the rapid recoveries, the speed around the court, the reflexes, the effort it all takes, as if these things can be added to the game with the flick of a switch. They can't. Federer was already unusual in this regard in 2014, but it seems to have escalated rapidly now, since his long absence. This is far too unusual to be ignored...

 

[the AntiPusher]

Clearly a blog written by a butthurt Nadal fan who thinks Federer has to be doping since he's beating Nadal easily now. Sigh. Read about improved backhand and first strike tennis much? As for Federer supposedly being tested the most, that's perfectly bleeding obvious. The norm is to test the guy winning the most, duh. It'd be a sad world if they did the opposite.

Maybe since your are the resident self anointed drug czar, wouldn't it be more prudent if you could take some time to break down every aspect of blogger's blog . If not I would have to agree with Kieran's assessment, the blogger is pretty much on point.

I did and you Nadal fans dismiss just about everything slung his way but, hey, it's perfectly fine for you to think the same about Federer when there's far, far less to go by lol. His recent success is all about first strike tennis and a massively improved backhand. Anyone can see that. As Nadal himself pointed out, Roger is playing 2-3 shots on average. Think you need to dope to hit 2-3 shots lol? :cover It's just because his strategy and adapting to the times is working, the author of that blog and all Nadal fans are so butthurt. He hasn't got any fitter and barely scraped past Berdych and Kyrgios at Miami but they weren't draining matches and likewise, as has been mentioned by many including myself, I didn't expect him to beat Wawrinka at the AO. Quite where the fitness and stamina being cited is supposedly coming from, I've no idea 'cos he's looked down and out many times. He's playing smarter, winning matches by playing way more aggressively which conserves energy and you don't end up all out of breath from hitting aces and blasting winners.

Bottom line: just 'cos Nadal has failed to make any major changes to his game and is still happily grinding away at almost 31 doesn't mean someone with a better approach for longevity and less wear and tear should come under scrutiny for having both the foresight and ability to win matches quicker and easier by playing shorter points. Oh and one more time for good measure, duh.

You are only speaking to the matches versus Nadal..I need you to speak to the others,AO numerous five setters ;Miami vs Tiafoe, Berdych, JBA, Krygrios ..Even if Rafa or one of the other opponents would have prevail , suspicions stilll would have came to The forefront about how could a 36 years old athlete who just returned to the tour afterwards a 6 months knee surgery injuries just rise back to the top of the game without breaking a sweat. Front it makes everything you have ever posted regards to peds or EPO very bias without any merit or real logic. It's very apparent since you are so dismissive you are not attempting to rebuttal the various points that Chris de Ward aka the tennis purist so eloquently makes regarding the changes in Roger's body. This has been the type of forum you have been begging for yet your reply is that of a neophyte poster who feels his beloved champion accomplishments has been unfairly maligned.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

You are repeatedly attributing Fed's resurgence to increased stamina and endurance. However, that is just not the case. In the other thread, me, El Dude and DF broke down the elements of success. Please read through it again. If he is not worried about stamina and endurance, why would he make his game ultra aggressive and try to finish off points in 2 or 3 strokes as Rafa himself has said recently.

Buddy, you can't just add "ultra aggression" to your game, just like that, "as if that's something 35 year old athletes simply do." You're ignoring the age factor. You're ignoring the rapid recoveries, the speed around the court, the reflexes, the effort it all takes, as if these things can be added to the game with the flick of a switch. They can't. Federer was already unusual in this regard in 2014, but it seems to have escalated rapidly now, since his long absence. This is far too unusual to be ignored...

Ya, you can't just add ultra aggression like the flick of a switch. But, Fed is generally an aggressive player by mentality all along. Going from aggressive to ultra aggressive is not a sudden transition, it is a gradual one.

 

[Kieran]

You are repeatedly attributing Fed's resurgence to increased stamina and endurance. However, that is just not the case. In the other thread, me, El Dude and DF broke down the elements of success. Please read through it again. If he is not worried about stamina and endurance, why would he make his game ultra aggressive and try to finish off points in 2 or 3 strokes as Rafa himself has said recently.

Buddy, you can't just add "ultra aggression" to your game, just like that, "as if that's something 35 year old athletes simply do." You're ignoring the age factor. You're ignoring the rapid recoveries, the speed around the court, the reflexes, the effort it all takes, as if these things can be added to the game with the flick of a switch. They can't. Federer was already unusual in this regard in 2014, but it seems to have escalated rapidly now, since his long absence. This is far too unusual to be ignored...

Ya, you can't just add ultra aggression like the flick of a switch. But, Fed is generally an aggressive player by mentality all along. Going from aggressive to ultra aggressive is not a sudden transition, it is a gradual one.

Yeah, a gradual one that took place in secret over 7 months off the tour. The physical means to support ultra-aggression is achieved gradually too, no doubt, because "that's what 35 year old athletes simply do..." :cover

 

[Front242]

Buddy, you can't just add "ultra aggression" to your game, just like that, "as if that's something 35 year old athletes simply do." You're ignoring the age factor. You're ignoring the rapid recoveries, the speed around the court, the reflexes, the effort it all takes, as if these things can be added to the game with the flick of a switch. They can't. Federer was already unusual in this regard in 2014, but it seems to have escalated rapidly now, since his long absence. This is far too unusual to be ignored...

Ya, you can't just add ultra aggression like the flick of a switch. But, Fed is generally an aggressive player by mentality all along. Going from aggressive to ultra aggressive is not a sudden transition, it is a gradual one.

Yeah, a gradual one that took place in secret over 7 months off the tour. The physical means to support ultra-aggression is achieved gradually too, no doubt, because "that's what 35 year old athletes simply do..." :cover

7 months? What the hell are you on about? Anyone at ANY age can choose to hit a nicely placed serve and belt the return. Physical means to hit a ball lol. Sigh. What it takes is conviction when you hit the ball and obviously a lot of skill so not all players can do it. I really have no idea what you Nadal fans are harping on about. Federer has much better shot making skills than Nadal and can therefore end points a lot faster and you're mad about that so therefore he has to be doping. Makes zero sense as he's playing first strike tennis for years now as he has had the brains to adapt his game for longevity and to still be a force on tour. Maybe you'd prefer he tried grinding away like a certain Mallorcan and then be too tired to win matches but he won't do that 'cos he's not dense. If anything ultra aggression is easier for older guys as they have the sense to do so and realize it's the best way to keep things short and therefore remain fresher match to match but not everyone has the shot making skills to do so as I said already.

In fact you're completely looking at things the 100% wrong way. A guy who is grinding away for hours match after match is the one who should be accused of doping not the guy winning fast because he's hitting only a couple of very well placed serves and shots. And the nonsense about his supposed improved stamina is just that. He's playing short matches therefore he won't expend anywhere near as much energy as a grinder and for this very reason has remained ultra competitive at an advanced age for a tennis player. It's not really rocket science for most but clearly is for Nadal fans. Btw he looked down and out a few matches lately (Berdych and Kyrgios at Miami, for example and Wawrinka at the AO) and stamina most definitely did NOT win him those matches. Shot making skills, some timely aces or well placed serves and a few double faults from his opponents won it for him in those. But feel free to spout some rubbish about doping and stamina instead 'cos clearly Federer doping makes Berdych and Kyrgios hit double faults :cover