Early AO talk

[Front242]

It's only "match up" if match up includes a helluva lot more than mere technical difficulties. The H2H portrays as much as any stat can, including slam numbers and so forth. They all require context and analysis. Close analysis of Fedal makes us Rafa fans feel very confident. Smug, even...

Confident about what? That Rafa has a significant matchup edge over Roger? No one would disagree with that; but again, it is a rock-paper-scissors thing. Or are you confident that Rafa was a better player than Roger? You'll find a lot of folks that dispute that. It does seem that you "smug Rafa fans" like to conflate the two, which of course is ridiculous (otherwise Davydenko is better than Rafa, or Dustin Brown!).

And what does "close analysis" mean to you? Seeing what you want to see? But I'm still waiting for your close analysis that goes beyond the usual pissing contest stuff...

All statistics only tell part the tale, brother, and since I previously accused you of only seeing what you want to see in your analysis, I can only say touché to your choice of words. Rafa a better player than Roger? On the big stage, and in matches between them, I'd certainly say so...

But as you say, it's an old pissing contest. Myself and fiero have just been reminiscing on an even older one: Borg and Mac. You have the lefty in your avatar: his match with Borg in 1980, and Rafas with Novak in 2012, are the only two really alt-history temptations I ever indulge in regularly. In my dreams... :cover

That explains why nobodies take him to 5 sets often and his matches are twice as long a lot of the time than Roger's. Better think that over methinks.

 

[Fiero425]

Oh please! Don't remind me! Rafa junking that backhand at 4-2, 30-15, when I think Novak was resigned to his fate. A "tight" shot, if ever I saw one. I still can't believe it. Puts me in mind of Borg double faulting twice at 3-all in the fifth against McEnroe. You know when! You know where! :cover

Nole tried to give the match to Rafa, but he wouldn't take it; just teasing us here and there with some spectacular "gets," only to miss a "sitter" like that with space a truck could maneuver! Both of them had nerves at the end of that WAR! It was the 7th straight win for NOLE and Rafa's confidence shaken, but obviously not for long! He took back the #1 ranking in 2013; his last real 2nd act with '14 FO! That's been it except for the occasional Masters' win on clay! Does he have 1 more good run in him "anywhere" on the map? For once, I don't think the tour will "lay down" for him and Roger! Looking forward to something reminiscent of Black Monday at '90 FO losing top 2 seeds; Edberg and Becker in the 1st round! Nole's been rather lucky over the years, but Nadal's already cracked; even with a 2-0 lead he had against FOG at USO last year! :nono :angel: :dodgy:

We'll see, brother, we'll see. If there's anyone can make hay once his fire's lit, it's young Ralph...

What does "young Ralph" have to do with this old man? Nadal has a broken body with his latest hair transplant! Young? Federer's in better shape and more settled it seems to me! He even has 4 screaming kids to take care of! uzzled

 

[Kieran]

Nole tried to give the match to Rafa, but he wouldn't take it; just teasing us here and there with some spectacular "gets," only to miss a "sitter" like that with space a truck could maneuver! Both of them had nerves at the end of that WAR! It was the 7th straight win for NOLE and Rafa's confidence shaken, but obviously not for long! He took back the #1 ranking in 2013; his last real 2nd act with '14 FO! That's been it except for the occasional Masters' win on clay! Does he have 1 more good run in him "anywhere" on the map? For once, I don't think the tour will "lay down" for him and Roger! Looking forward to something reminiscent of Black Monday at '90 FO losing top 2 seeds; Edberg and Becker in the 1st round! Nole's been rather lucky over the years, but Nadal's already cracked; even with a 2-0 lead he had against FOG at USO last year! :nono :angel: :dodgy:

We'll see, brother, we'll see. If there's anyone can make hay once his fire's lit, it's young Ralph...

What does "young Ralph" have to do with this old man? Nadal has a broken body with his latest hair transplant! Young? Federer's in better shape and more settled it seems to me! He even has 4 screaming kids to take care of! uzzled :nono :angel: :dodgy: :cover

He's young compared to me! :lolz: :laydownlaughing :snicker

 

[the AntiPusher]

Did Novak serve for it in the fourth? That was a match that had everything.

There's something special about Oz, but I hope they quit their obnoxious scheduling that sees players take the court at basically 2am, to play best of five. Or something like that. From that perspective, they have a lot to learn...

It's happened quite a few times; even if Nole wins the match! He can be cruising along, just annihilating his opponent, can be serving for it with MP's and somehow it gets away from him! It's not like he's choking or even pulling back much on his effort; it can be Fedal snatching back a break and winning the set in a TB! OTTH it happened at '12 AO in the 4th, '11 USO in the 3rd, '14 Wimbledon (up 2 breaks) in the 4th, & 4th set at '15 USO! I actually predict it; "he's going to be serving for it in the 3rd of '11 USO and end up having to win in 4!" I swear it happens again and again! It's a wonder he came back at AO final against Nadal after blowing it earlier, well before that 4th set TB and down a break in the 5th! :nono :angel: :cover

Oh please! Don't remind me! Rafa junking that backhand at 4-2, 30-15, when I think Novak was resigned to his fate. A "tight" shot, if ever I saw one. I still can't believe it. Puts me in mind of Borg double faulting twice at 3-all in the fifth against McEnroe. You know when! You know where! :cover

Rafa should have hit the ball directly at Djokovic instead of try that tight passing shot attempt..it's the highest percentage play..finally in 2013. Rafa played his best hardcourt match ever vs Djokovic in Montreal , Rafa hit Novak in the head when the same opportunity to hit a passing shot...I totally unnerved Novak and was a prelude to Rafa's best American hard swing ever( Montreal, Cincinnati and the United States)

 

[Fiero425]

We'll see, brother, we'll see. If there's anyone can make hay once his fire's lit, it's young Ralph...

What does "young Ralph" have to do with this old man? Nadal has a broken body with his latest hair transplant! Young? Federer's in better shape and more settled it seems to me! He even has 4 screaming kids to take care of! uzzled :nono :angel: :dodgy: :cover

He's young compared to me! :lolz: :laydownlaughing :snicker

Who isn't; except maybe me? :cry :snicker :laydownlaughing :cover

 

[Fiero425]

It's happened quite a few times; even if Nole wins the match! He can be cruising along, just annihilating his opponent, can be serving for it with MP's and somehow it gets away from him! It's not like he's choking or even pulling back much on his effort; it can be Fedal snatching back a break and winning the set in a TB! OTTH it happened at '12 AO in the 4th, '11 USO in the 3rd, '14 Wimbledon (up 2 breaks) in the 4th, & 4th set at '15 USO! I actually predict it; "he's going to be serving for it in the 3rd of '11 USO and end up having to win in 4!" I swear it happens again and again! It's a wonder he came back at AO final against Nadal after blowing it earlier, well before that 4th set TB and down a break in the 5th! :nono :angel: :cover

Oh please! Don't remind me! Rafa junking that backhand at 4-2, 30-15, when I think Novak was resigned to his fate. A "tight" shot, if ever I saw one. I still can't believe it. Puts me in mind of Borg double faulting twice at 3-all in the fifth against McEnroe. You know when! You know where! :cover

Rafa should have hit the ball directly at Djokovic instead of try that tight passing shot attempt..it's the highest percentage play..finally in 2013. Rafa played his best hardcourt match ever vs Djokovic in Montreal, Rafa hit Novak in the head when the same opportunity to hit a passing shot...I totally unnerved Novak and was a prelude to Rafa's best American JC swing ever (Montreal, Cincinnati and the United States)

...and his last! I think Nole misses Rafa making it to his round so he can punish him for that and other matches stolen from Fedovic over the years! :angel: :dodgy:

 

[Kieran]

It's happened quite a few times; even if Nole wins the match! He can be cruising along, just annihilating his opponent, can be serving for it with MP's and somehow it gets away from him! It's not like he's choking or even pulling back much on his effort; it can be Fedal snatching back a break and winning the set in a TB! OTTH it happened at '12 AO in the 4th, '11 USO in the 3rd, '14 Wimbledon (up 2 breaks) in the 4th, & 4th set at '15 USO! I actually predict it; "he's going to be serving for it in the 3rd of '11 USO and end up having to win in 4!" I swear it happens again and again! It's a wonder he came back at AO final against Nadal after blowing it earlier, well before that 4th set TB and down a break in the 5th! :nono :angel: :cover

Oh please! Don't remind me! Rafa junking that backhand at 4-2, 30-15, when I think Novak was resigned to his fate. A "tight" shot, if ever I saw one. I still can't believe it. Puts me in mind of Borg double faulting twice at 3-all in the fifth against McEnroe. You know when! You know where! :cover

Rafa should have hit the ball directly at Djokovic instead of try that tight passing shot attempt..it's the highest percentage play..

Oh just a basic tap into the empty court was enough. A measure of how desperate he was, he went too close to the line... :cry :cover :ras:

 

[Kieran]

Another interesting aspect of this year's Oz is Stan. I have him as more of a sniper than a brawler. A high class assassin. But I don't think it's his turn, this time. Too much expectation...

 

[the AntiPusher]

Oh please! Don't remind me! Rafa junking that backhand at 4-2, 30-15, when I think Novak was resigned to his fate. A "tight" shot, if ever I saw one. I still can't believe it. Puts me in mind of Borg double faulting twice at 3-all in the fifth against McEnroe. You know when! You know where! :cover

Rafa should have hit the ball directly at Djokovic instead of try that tight passing shot attempt..it's the highest percentage play..

Oh just a basic tap into the empty court was enough. A measure of how desperate he was, he went too close to the line... :cry :cover :ras:

No, you have to be a sniper not try so hard to go around him. You have to send a message and not be so nice. Trust me on this one.

 

[Kieran]

Rafa should have hit the ball directly at Djokovic instead of try that tight passing shot attempt..it's the highest percentage play..

Oh just a basic tap into the empty court was enough. A measure of how desperate he was, he went too close to the line... :cry :cover :ras:

No, you have to be a sniper not try so hard to go around him. You have to send a message and not be so nice. Trust me on this one.

Hey buddy, anything but what we got, eh?

 

[El Dude]

All statistics only tell part the tale, brother, and since I previously accused you of only seeing what you want to see in your analysis, I can only say touché to your choice of words. Rafa a better player than Roger? On the big stage, and in matches between them, I'd certainly say so...

But as you say, it's an old pissing contest. Myself and fiero have just been reminiscing on an even older one: Borg and Mac. You have the lefty in your avatar: his match with Borg in 1980, and Rafas with Novak in 2012, are the only two really alt-history temptations I ever indulge in regularly. In my dreams... :cover

We all see what we want to see: it is human perception. Unlike some, I at least try to be objective

It is pure fact that Rafa is better than Roger in terms of their matchup. As you say, 23-11 doesn't lie. But "on the big stage?" I don't know, Roger has 3 more Slam titles, and five more World Tour Finals.

Anyhow, this is a rabbit hole that we probably both don't want to go down...

Borg-McEnroe remains the greatest tennis rivalry of all time. I'm not sure there is anything even close. Novak-Rafa is close on paper, but doesn't have the sex appeal.

 

[the AntiPusher]

All statistics only tell part the tale, brother, and since I previously accused you of only seeing what you want to see in your analysis, I can only say touché to your choice of words. Rafa a better player than Roger? On the big stage, and in matches between them, I'd certainly say so...

But as you say, it's an old pissing contest. Myself and fiero have just been reminiscing on an even older one: Borg and Mac. You have the lefty in your avatar: his match with Borg in 1980, and Rafas with Novak in 2012, are the only two really alt-history temptations I ever indulge in regularly. In my dreams... :cover

We all see what we want to see: it is human perception. Unlike some, I at least try to be objective

It is pure fact that Rafa is better than Roger in terms of their matchup. As you say, 23-11 doesn't lie. But "on the big stage?" I don't know, Roger has 3 more Slam titles, and five more World Tour Finals.

Anyhow, this is a rabbit hole that we probably both don't want to go down...

Borg-McEnroe remains the greatest tennis rivalry of all time. I'm not sure there is anything even close. Novak-Rafa is close on paper, but doesn't have the sex appeal.

Huh..on the big stage Rafa has a better h2h over Federer 5-2..10-4 vs Djokovic (including the Olympics)

 

[the AntiPusher]

Oh just a basic tap into the empty court was enough. A measure of how desperate he was, he went too close to the line... :cry :cover :ras:

No, you have to be a sniper not try so hard to go around him. You have to send a message and not be so nice. Trust me on this one.

Hey buddy, anything but what we got, eh?

Correctomundo

 

[Front242]

All statistics only tell part the tale, brother, and since I previously accused you of only seeing what you want to see in your analysis, I can only say touché to your choice of words. Rafa a better player than Roger? On the big stage, and in matches between them, I'd certainly say so...

But as you say, it's an old pissing contest. Myself and fiero have just been reminiscing on an even older one: Borg and Mac. You have the lefty in your avatar: his match with Borg in 1980, and Rafas with Novak in 2012, are the only two really alt-history temptations I ever indulge in regularly. In my dreams... :cover

We all see what we want to see: it is human perception. Unlike some, I at least try to be objective

It is pure fact that Rafa is better than Roger in terms of their matchup. As you say, 23-11 doesn't lie. But "on the big stage?" I don't know, Roger has 3 more Slam titles, and five more World Tour Finals.

Anyhow, this is a rabbit hole that we probably both don't want to go down...

Borg-McEnroe remains the greatest tennis rivalry of all time. I'm not sure there is anything even close. Novak-Rafa is close on paper, but doesn't have the sex appeal.

Huh..on the big stage Rafa has a better h2h over Federer 5-2..10-4 vs Djokovic (including the Olympics)

Not versus everyone else he doesn't, which is what El Dude was saying.

 

[Front242]

There are more than 3 players on tour.

 

[the AntiPusher]

We all see what we want to see: it is human perception. Unlike some, I at least try to be objective

It is pure fact that Rafa is better than Roger in terms of their matchup. As you say, 23-11 doesn't lie. But "on the big stage?" I don't know, Roger has 3 more Slam titles, and five more World Tour Finals.

Anyhow, this is a rabbit hole that we probably both don't want to go down...

Borg-McEnroe remains the greatest tennis rivalry of all time. I'm not sure there is anything even close. Novak-Rafa is close on paper, but doesn't have the sex appeal.

Huh..on the big stage Rafa has a better h2h over Federer 5-2..10-4 vs Djokovic (including the Olympics)

Not versus everyone else he doesn't, which is what El Dude was saying.

Are you kidding me

 

[Kieran]

All statistics only tell part the tale, brother, and since I previously accused you of only seeing what you want to see in your analysis, I can only say touché to your choice of words. Rafa a better player than Roger? On the big stage, and in matches between them, I'd certainly say so...

But as you say, it's an old pissing contest. Myself and fiero have just been reminiscing on an even older one: Borg and Mac. You have the lefty in your avatar: his match with Borg in 1980, and Rafas with Novak in 2012, are the only two really alt-history temptations I ever indulge in regularly. In my dreams... :cover

We all see what we want to see: it is human perception. Unlike some, I at least try to be objective

It is pure fact that Rafa is better than Roger in terms of their matchup. As you say, 23-11 doesn't lie. But "on the big stage?" I don't know, Roger has 3 more Slam titles, and five more World Tour Finals.

Anyhow, this is a rabbit hole that we probably both don't want to go down...

Borg-McEnroe remains the greatest tennis rivalry of all time. I'm not sure there is anything even close. Novak-Rafa is close on paper, but doesn't have the sex appeal.

Well Borg-McEnroe has that, alright, and it has the sharpest contrasts: rugged baseliner versus great serve-volleyer. Ice versus Fire. All the cliches hold strongest here. They played titanic matches, then Borg left early, which I always insist only adds to his myth. And in tennis, Borg is the great mystery, the most iconic, the biggest star in so many ways. Maybe because he was the first? Dunno. But their rivalry was maybe the one that rivalries after were measured against. We kind of have that again now, with Fedal, Djoker, etc, all the great rivalries, but without the sharp contrasts in personality or styles...

 

[Front242]

Plus these days you don't get many players admitting they took steroids too strong for horses unknowingly (as if Mac) for 6 years. McEnroe was a f****n' joke. Used love his matches with Borg but his legacy is forever more tainted and utterly destroyed imo.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Plus these days you don't get many players admitting they took steroids too strong for horses unknowingly (as if Mac) for 6 years. McEnroe was a f****n' joke. Used love his matches with Borg but his legacy is forever more tainted and utterly destroyed imo.

Front, KSkate has warned you repeatedly about your consistent interjection of your steroidal conspiracies into every damn thread. Damn, enough already

 

[El Dude]

Depends what we mean by "big stage." I took it to mean Slams and/or Slam finals. But we can define it however we want, depending upon what we seek to accomplish. If you want to define it in a way that makes Rafa look even better, go ahead - but at least call a spade a spade.

Yes, Rafa has the lead in Slam match-ups against those two, but as Front pointed out, there are more than three players in tennis. Roger won four Slams before he faced Rafa at a Slam, and we can't say those weren't big stage, or that his other Slam titles aren't big stage, even if he didn't face Rafa or Novak. We can't fault Roger for having his best years before Rafa and Novak found their highest level.

All that said, Roger clearly had a problem with Novak and especially Rafa. That doesn't take away from the rest of his record, which still remains the best career of the Open Era. Roger is almost five years older than Rafa, almost six older than Novak. The record clearly shows that Roger reached his absolute peak in 2006 then started a slow decline so that by the time Rafa reached his peak in 2010, and Novak in 2011, he was already a diminished player. Most of their matches have been played when Roger was post-peak and the younger two in their prime. The situation is not unlike Sampras and Agassi (Novak and Rafa) vs. Becker and Edberg (Roger) in terms of generations and era, except Roger last much longer than Becker or Edberg. Or maybe Roger is Jimmy Connors, Rafa is Borg, and Novak is McEnroe.