Did Djokovic really play that poorly?

[Kieran]

Yeah, Roger's 5 set record sure isn't that great for the player that he is. For me the biggest screw up will always be the USO '09. 5 in a row there would've been quite something, not that 4 isn't but 5 there was well within his grasp.

Or even better, 6!

He won five in a row the previous five years...

 

[Front242]

Yeah, Roger's 5 set record sure isn't that great for the player that he is. For me the biggest screw up will always be the USO '09. 5 in a row there would've been quite something, not that 4 isn't but 5 there was well within his grasp.

Or even better, 6!

He won five in a row the previous five years...

Doh. How could I forget that :blush: Yeah 6, sorry Roger And cheers for pointing that out.

 

[DarthFed]

Yeah, Roger's 5 set record sure isn't that great for the player that he is. For me the biggest screw up will always be the USO '09. 5 in a row there would've been quite something, not that 4 isn't but 5 there was well within his grasp.

I agree, that might actually be the biggest loss of his career, either that or Wimbledon 08. If he had won USO 2009 and still had won AO 2010 he'd have had the Roger slam as well as 6 straight USO's. And to lose it to DP despite all those leads was truly an awful loss.

 

[Front242]

He probably had a lot of nightmares of that hideous drop shot on set point in the 2nd set.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

He probably had a lot of nightmares of that hideous drop shot on set point in the 2nd set.

it was not set point.

 

[Front242]

^ My mistake sorry it was 5-4, 30-15. Thought it was 40-15. Hideously bad drop shot though.

 

[Backhand_DTL]

Well, when he won Oz in 2012 to reach 5, a brave man or a fool would say he'd only have 6 at this stage...

Yep, he has won 1 of the last 9 majors now and aside from 2011 he has never won any other slam aside from AO. That's why I think it is at the point you have to wonder about his place/future in the game.

Especially 0 of the last 5 is a problem. After Nole won the US Open 2011 and the Australian Open 2012 in a somewhat fortunate way he was never really close to winning the French Open or Wimbledon, although with lighter rain that would have allowed to continue playing or an outdoor match against Federer he might have won one of these. The US Open loss was probably the most disappointing that season, but didn't seem to have too much of an effect on him as he won in Australia again after that.

But after that regrettable net touch-mistake at Roland Garros his mental toughness doesn't seem to be the same anymore. He won close slam matches against Del Potro and Wawrinka, but those only got close due to Novak's level not being too high there. Against other elite players he really struggles to retain leads and seems to get quite tense when serving to stay in sets or matches.

In Wimbledon he would probably need his draw to open up a bit to have a chance to win again, but the US Open will be really important as Nole still shows the most consistently high level on hard courts and should be the favorite if he performs reasonably well in the Masters 1000 events before. I think he has a good chance to turn the corner there, otherwise things will look really bad.

 

[rafanoy1992]

Well, when he won Oz in 2012 to reach 5, a brave man or a fool would say he'd only have 6 at this stage...

Yep, he has won 1 of the last 9 majors now and aside from 2011 he has never won any other slam aside from AO. That's why I think it is at the point you have to wonder about his place/future in the game.

Especially 0 of the last 5 is a problem. After Nole won the US Open 2011 and the Australian Open 2012 in a somewhat fortunate way he was never really close to winning the French Open or Wimbledon, although with lighter rain that would have allowed to continue playing or an outdoor match against Federer he might have won one of these. The US Open loss was probably the most disappointing that season, but didn't seem to have too much of an effect on him as he won in Australia again after that.

But after that regrettable net touch-mistake at Roland Garros his mental toughness doesn't seem to be the same anymore. He won close slam matches against Del Potro and Wawrinka, but those only got close due to Novak's level not being too high there. Against other elite players he really struggles to retain leads and seems to get quite tense when serving to stay in sets or matches.

In Wimbledon he would probably need his draw to open up a bit to have a chance to win again, but the US Open will be really important as Nole still shows the most consistently high level on hard courts and should be the favorite if he performs reasonably well in the Masters 1000 events before. I think he has a good chance to turn the corner there, otherwise things will look really bad.

I agree with the bolded part, FG.

In my opinion, Djokovic needs to do well in North American hardcourt swing in order to gain some huge confidence going into the US Open. The good news is that he does not have a lot of points to defend in both events. Meanwhile, Nadal could not gain any points after Wimbledon. Not only he could gain some momentum, he could regain the number 1 ranking before the US Open starts.

I could have never imagined Djokovic possibly not winning one single major this year.

 

[Backhand_DTL]

Well, when he won Oz in 2012 to reach 5, a brave man or a fool would say he'd only have 6 at this stage...

Yep, he has won 1 of the last 9 majors now and aside from 2011 he has never won any other slam aside from AO. That's why I think it is at the point you have to wonder about his place/future in the game.

Especially 0 of the last 5 is a problem. After Nole won the US Open 2011 and the Australian Open 2012 in a somewhat fortunate way he was never really close to winning the French Open or Wimbledon, although with lighter rain that would have allowed to continue playing or an outdoor match against Federer he might have won one of these. The US Open loss was probably the most disappointing that season, but didn't seem to have too much of an effect on him as he won in Australia again after that.

But after that regrettable net touch-mistake at Roland Garros his mental toughness doesn't seem to be the same anymore. He won close slam matches against Del Potro and Wawrinka, but those only got close due to Novak's level not being too high there. Against other elite players he really struggles to retain leads and seems to get quite tense when serving to stay in sets or matches.

In Wimbledon he would probably need his draw to open up a bit to have a chance to win again, but the US Open will be really important as Nole still shows the most consistently high level on hard courts and should be the favorite if he performs reasonably well in the Masters 1000 events before. I think he has a good chance to turn the corner there, otherwise things will look really bad.

I agree with the bolded part, FG.

In my opinion, Djokovic needs to do well in North American hardcourt swing in order to gain some huge confidence going into the US Open. The good news is that he does not have a lot of points to defend in both events. Meanwhile, Nadal could not gain any points after Wimbledon. Not only he could gain some momentum, he could regain the number 1 ranking before the US Open starts.

I could have never imagined Djokovic possibly not winning one single major this year.

In my opinion regaining number 1 before the US Open wouldn't be good for him at all, if he doesn't win Wimbledon. It would only add pressure and the ranking system and Novak himself will be questioned by the media concerning how he with holding 0 slams can be ahead of Nadal with 2 majors, so that would result in a further distraction.

 

[calitennis127]

Just watched the second set re-run on Tennis Channel. Djokovic's game at 5-6 was a collapse. Nadal did not do anything special until it was 15-40.

At 15-0, Djokovic hit a double fault. At 15-15, he hit a lazy forehand that clipped the tape and gave Nadal an edge in the rally. At 15-30, Djokovic missed a routine forehand.

This is the point Kieran is not facing. Djokovic needed 20 minutes of his best ball at some point in the second set, and he would have clearly won set 2. He had Nadal on the ropes and no one knew it more than Nadal. There was a reason Nadal had such urgency.

 

[rafanoy1992]

Well, when he won Oz in 2012 to reach 5, a brave man or a fool would say he'd only have 6 at this stage...

Yep, he has won 1 of the last 9 majors now and aside from 2011 he has never won any other slam aside from AO. That's why I think it is at the point you have to wonder about his place/future in the game.

Especially 0 of the last 5 is a problem. After Nole won the US Open 2011 and the Australian Open 2012 in a somewhat fortunate way he was never really close to winning the French Open or Wimbledon, although with lighter rain that would have allowed to continue playing or an outdoor match against Federer he might have won one of these. The US Open loss was probably the most disappointing that season, but didn't seem to have too much of an effect on him as he won in Australia again after that.

But after that regrettable net touch-mistake at Roland Garros his mental toughness doesn't seem to be the same anymore. He won close slam matches against Del Potro and Wawrinka, but those only got close due to Novak's level not being too high there. Against other elite players he really struggles to retain leads and seems to get quite tense when serving to stay in sets or matches.

In Wimbledon he would probably need his draw to open up a bit to have a chance to win again, but the US Open will be really important as Nole still shows the most consistently high level on hard courts and should be the favorite if he performs reasonably well in the Masters 1000 events before. I think he has a good chance to turn the corner there, otherwise things will look really bad.

I agree with the bolded part, FG.

In my opinion, Djokovic needs to do well in North American hardcourt swing in order to gain some huge confidence going into the US Open. The good news is that he does not have a lot of points to defend in both events. Meanwhile, Nadal could not gain any points after Wimbledon. Not only he could gain some momentum, he could regain the number 1 ranking before the US Open starts.

I could have never imagined Djokovic possibly not winning one single major this year.

In my opinion regaining number 1 before the US Open wouldn't be good for him at all, if he doesn't win Wimbledon. It would only add pressure and the ranking system and Novak himself will be questioned by the media concerning how he with holding 0 slams can be ahead of Nadal with 2 majors, so that would result in a further distraction.

You do have a point. However, Djokovic is in a position in where he has to win to gain some confidence and momentum. And with the way the rankings work, he could potentially surpass Nadal in the computer rankings before the US Open because Nadal is defending 2000 points and Djokovic is only defending 540 points. Honestly, I don't see Nadal replicating his success from last year. The only way I could see Djokovic not overtake Nadal in the rankings before the US Open is if Nadal wins Wimbledon or Djokovic totally under performs in both Masters 1000 events.

It will be interesting on how all these pan out...the good thing is we are only two weeks away from the start of Wimbledon.

 

[DarthFed]

Djokovic isn't winning Wimbledon. Huge underdog vs. Murray and I could see a whole lot of other players beating him before or in a final. The USO is the big one and will determine if he can still be considered a force in tennis.

 

[Ricardo]

oh come on, Novak is a force regardless of wether he does well at USO. He has sort of under-performance according to expectations but the guy has made major finals on a regular basis, what are you talking about?

 

[Kieran]

Just watched the second set re-run on Tennis Channel. Djokovic's game at 5-6 was a collapse. Nadal did not do anything special until it was 15-40.

At 15-0, Djokovic hit a double fault. At 15-15, he hit a lazy forehand that clipped the tape and gave Nadal an edge in the rally. At 15-30, Djokovic missed a routine forehand.

This is the point Kieran is not facing. Djokovic needed 20 minutes of his best ball at some point in the second set, and he would have clearly won set 2. He had Nadal on the ropes and no one knew it more than Nadal. There was a reason Nadal had such urgency.

My problem is with your terminology. There is no way Rafa was "on the ropes." He was behind in the score, and that's all. So long as he was serving first and staying ahead, he was always going to have a chance.

And by the way, look back in this thread, you said Rafa played his "peak in sets 2 and 3." How could he play his peak on clay and be on the ropes against anybody?

He was down one set, and that's the full extent of it...

 

[britbox]

oh come on, Novak is a force regardless of wether he does well at USO. He has sort of under-performance according to expectations but the guy has made major finals on a regular basis, what are you talking about?

Agreed. Too many over the top knee jerk reactions.

Djokovic doesn't need to wait until the US Open to prove he is a "force" in tennis. He is a force right now and has been for the last 6 years.

 

[tented]

Djokovic isn't winning Wimbledon. Huge underdog vs. Murray and I could see a whole lot of other players beating him before or in a final. The USO is the big one and will determine if he can still be considered a force in tennis.

He's 1-4 in finals in New York. How is it "the big one"? It's not like it can be used as the standard measure of his previous successes, unlike the AO.

 

[Backhand_DTL]

You do have a point. However, Djokovic is in a position in where he has to win to gain some confidence and momentum. And with the way the rankings work, he could potentially surpass Nadal in the computer rankings before the US Open because Nadal is defending 2000 points and Djokovic is only defending 540 points. Honestly, I don't see Nadal replicating his success from last year. The only way I could see Djokovic not overtake Nadal in the rankings before the US Open is if Nadal wins Wimbledon or Djokovic totally under performs in both Masters 1000 events.

Yes if you substract the points from Wimbledon, Canada and Cincinnati from there ranking totals Djokovic is about 100 points ahead I think. So that basically means whoever of them performs better over these three tournaments (and Halle and maybe some summer clay event like Hamburg for Nadal) will be the top seed at the US Open and there are indeed realistic possibilities for Novak to get there without holding a slam.

Djokovic isn't winning Wimbledon. Huge underdog vs. Murray and I could see a whole lot of other players beating him before or in a final.

That's why I think he would need help in how the tournament turns out to have a chance. Against Federer and Murray he looked quite clueless in their last grass meetings, but other than that only Hewitt at the Olympics got somewhat close to beating him at Wimbledon during the last three years. Overall I think Djokovic is still the most reliable against players like Berdych/Gulbis/Tsonga/Cilic and the other elite players are more susceptible to an early upset. But if his draw doesn't open up for at least one of the final two rounds it's hard to see him winning there right now.

 

[Federberg]

Well, when he won Oz in 2012 to reach 5, a brave man or a fool would say he'd only have 6 at this stage...

Yep, he has won 1 of the last 9 majors now and aside from 2011 he has never won any other slam aside from AO. That's why I think it is at the point you have to wonder about his place/future in the game.

Especially 0 of the last 5 is a problem. After Nole won the US Open 2011 and the Australian Open 2012 in a somewhat fortunate way he was never really close to winning the French Open or Wimbledon, although with lighter rain that would have allowed to continue playing or an outdoor match against Federer he might have won one of these. The US Open loss was probably the most disappointing that season, but didn't seem to have too much of an effect on him as he won in Australia again after that.

But after that regrettable net touch-mistake at Roland Garros his mental toughness doesn't seem to be the same anymore. He won close slam matches against Del Potro and Wawrinka, but those only got close due to Novak's level not being too high there. Against other elite players he really struggles to retain leads and seems to get quite tense when serving to stay in sets or matches.

In Wimbledon he would probably need his draw to open up a bit to have a chance to win again, but the US Open will be really important as Nole still shows the most consistently high level on hard courts and should be the favorite if he performs reasonably well in the Masters 1000 events before. I think he has a good chance to turn the corner there, otherwise things will look really bad.

It's not clear to me that playing outdoors on grass helps Novak against Roger. Yes Roger with the roof closed is a beast. Probably still the best player in the world. But Novak has taken Roger out indoors quite a few times. I think it's more of a surface issue. I can't see Novak handling those nasty slices on grass, outdoor or indoor...

 

[brokenshoelace]

oh come on, Novak is a force regardless of wether he does well at USO. He has sort of under-performance according to expectations but the guy has made major finals on a regular basis, what are you talking about?

Agreed. Too many over the top knee jerk reactions.

Djokovic doesn't need to wait until the US Open to prove he is a "force" in tennis. He is a force right now and has been for the last 6 years.

I agree. Every time someone loses a few big matches in a row, the same old "will he ever win again, and how often?" thing emerges. We saw it with Federer after AO 2009, Nadal after 2011/AO 2012, Murray after every final loss, and Djokovic now. My belief is, if you're good enough, and you keep putting yourself in positions to win, you will, especially since you've done it before, and done it often.

 

[britbox]

oh come on, Novak is a force regardless of wether he does well at USO. He has sort of under-performance according to expectations but the guy has made major finals on a regular basis, what are you talking about?

Agreed. Too many over the top knee jerk reactions.

Djokovic doesn't need to wait until the US Open to prove he is a "force" in tennis. He is a force right now and has been for the last 6 years.

I agree. Every time someone loses a few big matches in a row, the same old "will he ever win again, and how often?" thing emerges. We saw it with Federer after AO 2009, Nadal after 2011/AO 2012, Murray after every final loss, and Djokovic now. My belief is, if you're good enough, and you keep putting yourself in positions to win, you will, especially since you've done it before, and done it often.

It's worth considering for a minute what the commentary would have been IF Djokovic had won that match. Completely different. I'm not talking about the specific match itself but the discussions on the "bigger picture".

Everyone would have been querying whether Nadal could ever beat Djokovic again having lost 5 on the spin, where Djokovic was in the GOAT rankings with 7 slams, how Djoker was going to be number one for the rest of the year, whether he could win Wimbledon.... Instead some are coming up with the commentary that his numbers are abominable, he's not a force in the sport etc.

Knee-jerk city.