Did Djokovic really play that poorly?

[DarthFed]

^ I think the word legend is getting thrown around loosely then. What is the cut off?

 

[Front242]

Realistically Djokovic should probably have 8 slams by now. He's lost 7 slams finals but with less slop in the big moments he could have won 2 more that he lost.

 

[Kieran]

^ I think the word legend is getting thrown around loosely then. What is the cut off?

I don't know, but do you not believe that Becker or Edberg are legends of the sport?

 

[DarthFed]

No, they are 2 of the best to play but not sure that makes them legends. Certainly there have been many better players than Becker and Edberg, some way way better. I'd call them all-time greats. I'm not saying this to be a smart*** but what really sticks out about those players that they accomplished? They don't have the distinguished records and careers as players like Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer and Rafa have.

Similar to what constitutes "all time great" status (a discussion on previous boards) I think "legend" is another thing that mostly comes down to opinion on what makes it.

 

[Kieran]

No, they are 2 of the best to play but not sure that makes them legends. Certainly there have been many better players than Becker and Edberg, some way way better. I'd call them all-time greats. I'm not saying this to be a smart*** but what really sticks out about those players that they accomplished. They don't have the distinguished records and careers as players like Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer and Rafa have.

Similar to what constitutes "all time great" status (a discussion on previous boards) I think "legend" is another thing that mostly comes down to opinion on what makes it.

That's fair enough, I can appreciate that distinction. Not sure I fully agree, but I see where you're coming from. There's often bandwagons on forums, building up blokes like Dolgo and Kei, after a couple of fine sets, but I'd say that Nole is a legend. Hell, beating Rafa 19 times is already the stuff of legend!

But I see where you're coming from...

 

[Backhand_DTL]

Maybe he just needs some kind of a lucky break in a final (inexperienced opponent/opponent that had a tough semi final before/favorable conditions) to get some calmness back and become mentally tougher again.

You used an apt word there -FG- - "calmness." Rafa often spoke about that too, when Nole was schooling him for almost a year. The calm. When it goes, I'm sure it's scary for these men, and they sometimes need help to get it back...

I think especially the other Big 4-players sense that Nole could be vulnerable in close matches right now and he might give it away if they can stay with him long enough. In the last 12 months he lost some important service games with extremely poor play even when his level before was solid. I think at 7:8 in last year's French Open-semi final, at 4:5 in the third set of the US Open final, both breaks against Wawrinka in the fifth set of the Australian Open and both breaks in the fourth set yesterday he more or less donated the decisive games with at least two really bad unforced errors.

 

[DarthFed]

No, they are 2 of the best to play but not sure that makes them legends. Certainly there have been many better players than Becker and Edberg, some way way better. I'd call them all-time greats. I'm not saying this to be a smart*** but what really sticks out about those players that they accomplished. They don't have the distinguished records and careers as players like Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer and Rafa have.

Similar to what constitutes "all time great" status (a discussion on previous boards) I think "legend" is another thing that mostly comes down to opinion on what makes it.

That's fair enough, I can appreciate that distinction. Not sure I fully agree, but I see where you're coming from. There's often bandwagons on forums, building up blokes like Dolgo and Kei, after a couple of fine sets, but I'd say that Nole is a legend. Hell, beating Rafa 19 times is already the stuff of legend!

But I see where you're coming from...

Yes it is all opinion. I will put it another way. Edberg and Becker are amongst the best to have played right now but think of what their status was 20 years ago compared to today. Since they've retired you've had 4 players certainly pass them up (Roger, Pete, Rafa, Andre) with 3 of them being significantly greater. And then throw in Nole who is probably already greater than those 2 and you have 5. And what will happen 20 years from now?

My point is that their careers, while excellent, won't be too difficult for many players to exceed in the future and eventually 6 slams will not stand out as noteworthy over time. As BB pointed out yesterday, players like Roger, Pete and Rafa will survive the test of time. A couple here and there might pass them yet they will still have the records and careers that stick out likely 100+ years from now.

 

[rafanoy1992]

Maybe he just needs some kind of a lucky break in a final (inexperienced opponent/opponent that had a tough semi final before/favorable conditions) to get some calmness back and become mentally tougher again.

You used an apt word there -FG- - "calmness." Rafa often spoke about that too, when Nole was schooling him for almost a year. The calm. When it goes, I'm sure it's scary for these men, and they sometimes need help to get it back...

I think especially the other Big 4-players sense that Nole could be vulnerable in close matches right now and he might give it away if they can stay with him long enough. In the last 12 months he lost some important service games with extremely poor play even when his level before was solid. I think at 7:8 in last year's French Open-semi final, at 4:5 in the third set of the US Open final, both breaks against Wawrinka in the fifth set of the Australian Open and both breaks in the fourth set yesterday he more or less donated the decisive games with at least two really bad unforced errors.

Don't forget the Wimbledon final against Murray. He was up 4-2 in the second set and he was up a break in the third set. And both times, he got broken twice to lose the set.

 

[Backhand_DTL]

Maybe he just needs some kind of a lucky break in a final (inexperienced opponent/opponent that had a tough semi final before/favorable conditions) to get some calmness back and become mentally tougher again.

You used an apt word there -FG- - "calmness." Rafa often spoke about that too, when Nole was schooling him for almost a year. The calm. When it goes, I'm sure it's scary for these men, and they sometimes need help to get it back...

I think especially the other Big 4-players sense that Nole could be vulnerable in close matches right now and he might give it away if they can stay with him long enough. In the last 12 months he lost some important service games with extremely poor play even when his level before was solid. I think at 7:8 in last year's French Open-semi final, at 4:5 in the third set of the US Open final, both breaks against Wawrinka in the fifth set of the Australian Open and both breaks in the fourth set yesterday he more or less donated the decisive games with at least two really bad unforced errors.

Don't forget the Wimbledon final against Murray. He was up 4-2 in the second set and he was up a break in the third set. And both times, he got broken twice to lose the set.

Yes, I disregarded that match because it was a straight set loss in the end, which means there never was a point where good play in the respective situation could have turned the match as decisively in his favor as in the other ones.

 

[brokenshoelace]

^ I think the word legend is getting thrown around loosely then. What is the cut off?

I agree. Djokovic is an all-time great, not a legend. I think there's a difference between the two.

 

[brokenshoelace]

No, they are 2 of the best to play but not sure that makes them legends. Certainly there have been many better players than Becker and Edberg, some way way better. I'd call them all-time greats. I'm not saying this to be a smart*** but what really sticks out about those players that they accomplished? They don't have the distinguished records and careers as players like Laver, Borg, Sampras, Federer and Rafa have.

Similar to what constitutes "all time great" status (a discussion on previous boards) I think "legend" is another thing that mostly comes down to opinion on what makes it.

I just saw this post, my thoughts exactly.

I always distinguish all-time greats and legends with the following: In tennis, an all-time great is one of the best players in history ("best" could mean top 20/top 15). A legend is also an all-time great, obviously, but it goes beyond that. It's someone who, if you were to talk about the sport, you can't but mention.

 

[Kieran]

Again, I see where you're coming from, Broken. It's a good point, and would make a good discussion. It might be that players can achieve legendary things (Becker, aged 17), and not be legends. I suppose it's open to debate...

 

[tented]

Realistically Djokovic should probably have 8 slams by now. He's lost 7 slams finals but with less slop in the big moments he could have won 2 more that he lost.

This is a pointless pursuit, IMHO.

Rafa "should have" won Wimbledon '07, AO '12, and AO '14. But he didn't. End of story.

Novak "should have" won USO '12, RG '12, etc. But he didn't.

Roger "should have" won Wimbledon '08, AO '09, and USO '09. But he didn't.

Etc.

The winner won, the loser lost.

 

[Front242]

^ I realize that could be said of everyone but realistically he certainly made a complete haims of a handful of those and he certainly could have a better win/loss ratio in finals than he does. Sometimes a player outright loses a final 'cos the other player blew them off the court but in tennis many matches are lost as much as won.

 

[Front242]

Basically I'm cutting Novak more slack than Roger and Rafa as I believe he should have more than 6 by now and fell short a few times too many. They both could have more too but enough is enough, can't be that greedy

 

[Kieran]

Well, when he won Oz in 2012 to reach 5, a brave man or a fool would say he'd only have 6 at this stage...

 

[Front242]

^ Exactly. He was on a roll but came to a complete halt. I know obviously that subtracts one-two from his opponents' total but he really is a better player than the stats say and his lack of focus cost him dearly.

 

[DarthFed]

Well, when he won Oz in 2012 to reach 5, a brave man or a fool would say he'd only have 6 at this stage...

Yep, he has won 1 of the last 9 majors now and aside from 2011 he has never won any other slam aside from AO. That's why I think it is at the point you have to wonder about his place/future in the game.

 

[DarthFed]

As to Front, I'd say Roger has way more bad near misses than Nole and if/when Rafa passes his slam total that is what will do him in.

Nole's problem is not showing up on the big stage, Roger's problem is that he is always first to blink in a close match on the big stage. Get him to 5 and the opponent wins if they are any good.

 

[Front242]

Yeah, Roger's 5 set record sure isn't that great for the player that he is. For me the biggest screw up will always be the USO '09. 5 in a row there would've been quite something, not that 4 isn't but 5 there was well within his grasp.