Did Djokovic really play that poorly?

[Federberg]

Djokovic served at 67% in the second set; higher than he did in the first.

You're right B.S, but at the time I recall saying that he was suddenly taking off pace in both the serve and rally shot. Couldn't really understand why. I recall someone (tented?) observing that he looked really pink. Not sure if he had breathing problems. It was just odd to see him let go once he went a set up. He totally got what he deserved. That's not how you beat the King of Clay in his palace..

 

[Federberg]

Remember Gulbis destroyed Nadal 6-1 at Rome last year in the first set.

Haha! Didn't Roger do that one year at RG? Much good it did him..

 

[calitennis127]

I thought he'd jack it up a bit in the second - Nole has a horrible habit of breaking Rafa at the start of sets since the US Open, a sure sign of confidence and dominance, but he didn't settle as much after winning the first as I'd expected. He didn't loosen up and swing freer. In fact, it was Rafa who began to pound his game and constrict Nole even more.

Curious, isn't it?

That's kind of my point behind this whole thread. It's the way that Djokovic took a step back when he needed to step up more than ever in that second set. It was no surprise to see him in the lead; but it was disappointing to see him as tentative and tired as he was throughout the second set to back up the lead he earned in the first set.

In the four matches since the US Open, Djokovic seemed to have a very defiant attitude toward Nadal, showing that he believed he was just better and that the matches were his if he played his game. Yesterday, in the second set he seemed to have this "please allow something good to happen to me" attitude that was more what you would expect out of someone without his pedigree and experience.

 

[Federberg]

Front, I'm sorry, I just don't see it. Gulbis doesn't have the defensive game of Djokovic and the conditions at RG suit Nadal's game better than Rome.

You keep insisting that Djokovic played so awfully today, but the fact is, he wasn't so far from winning. He could have very easily won the second set had he not gotten tired and served as poorly at the end of the set, and he was not far from taking the fourth either. The only set he was just completely out of for the most part was the third.

The issue for Djokovic was, once again, coping with the Nadal last stand. He failed to handle it in New York in the 3rd set, and he failed to handle it in the second set of the RG final. Hence, he lost a match he was not far from winning in both cases.

Cali I think the scoreline flattered Novak. After he bailed in the 2nd set the thing was over apart from token resistance. That was my own personal feeling anyway. I confess I lost interest. I spent more time watching a Magnus Carlsen match on my computer than the last 2 sets!

 

[Federberg]

All right, so to conclude:

Nadal is lucky he didn't play a reincarnated 2009 Soderling, a reincarnated 2009 Del Potro, a reincarnated May 2014 Nishikori, a hooker-free Gulbis, and a Karlovic/Nalbandian hybrid.

For me the conclusion is.. if it's a sunny day on finals Sunday at RG, don't bother turning up if you're supporting the other guy. I didn't like the weather from the start yesterday, and Rafa's performance confirmed it. I remember almost making a comment about how Rafa was either Kryptonian or Djokovic was a vampire :snigger

 

[Federberg]

^ No opponent needed to be amazing to beat Nadal today, just more focused, less errors and not botching leads or losing the match on a double fault. The fact that Djokovic was far from amazing made it all the more easy for Nadal to win, which he deserved to as he committed less slop but it wasn't that clean a match from either guy. The stats were close.

I disagree. If someone played average vs. rafa's average (like today, according to you), most likely they'd lose.

I never said playing average was enough but you wouldn't have needed to be utterly amazing to beat Nadal either.

Uh...he's lost once in 66 matches at Roland Garros... to a guy playing beyond amazing. That answers your above statement.

And the way he played the 2014 final that same guy would've mopped the floor with him with his huge serve and powerful groundstrokes. I'm only judging beating him as he played the final this year, not in general.

Not in those conditions! If it had been a cooler damper day, I have a feeling Novak's performance would have been better. I think he checked out mentally, that's what I found so disappointing.

There is simply no way Soderling playing at this very best could have gotten close to Rafa in the conditions yesterday. No way.. no how!

 

[nehmeth]

I think the scoreline flattered Novak. After he bailed in the 2nd set the thing was over apart from token resistance. That was my own personal feeling anyway. I confess I lost interest. I spent more time watching a Magnus Carlsen match on my computer than the last 2 sets!

Co-signed.

Finally tapped into my inner masochist and forced myself to watch the whole match. To me, it was pretty obvious that instead of stepping it up in the 2nd set, he became tentative, passive, diffident - almost as though he was waiting for Ralf to make his move instead of pressing the battle. It was over after the 2nd set.

 

[calitennis127]

I think the scoreline flattered Novak. After he bailed in the 2nd set the thing was over apart from token resistance. That was my own personal feeling anyway. I confess I lost interest. I spent more time watching a Magnus Carlsen match on my computer than the last 2 sets!

Co-signed.

Finally tapped into my inner masochist and forced myself to watch the whole match. To me, it was pretty obvious that instead of stepping it up in the 2nd set, he became tentative, passive, diffident - almost as though he was waiting for Ralf to make his move instead of pressing the battle. It was over after the 2nd set.

Exactly my point.

That is what is so disappointing. What happened to the defiant, self-assured Djokovic of recent months when playing Nadal? The one who cleared exuded a sense of superiority toward Nadal?

Yesterday's Djokovic was holding on for dear life, with a face of a kid who has the flu - with a one-set lead.

Very disappointing.

 

[Federberg]

Think of it this way...did Novak play amazing in set 1? Not really, yet he still won. Did he play amazing in set 2? Not unless you call being broken twice good and I sure as hell don't. But yet he was one hold away from a 2nd set TB play nothing special against an opponent clearly not at his best either. Novak's performance in set 3 was abysmal as the scoreline shows and he perked a bit in set 4 only to lose focus yet again when it mattered most. I don't think the version of Nadal playing this year's final took a monumental effort to beat personally.

If you mean that Novak specifically should have been able to beat Rafa given Rafa's level yesterday then I agree with this. I can't think of a single other player who would have stood a chance. But Novak just seems to check out in major finals these days. I think this loss could really really hurt him going forward.

 

[calitennis127]

Djokovic served at 67% in the second set; higher than he did in the first.

You're right B.S, but at the time I recall saying that he was suddenly taking off pace in both the serve and rally shot. Couldn't really understand why. I recall someone (tented?) observing that he looked really pink. Not sure if he had breathing problems. It was just odd to see him let go once he went a set up. He totally got what he deserved. That's not how you beat the King of Clay in his palace..

There absolutely was a drop-off in Djokovic's level in the second set, when he had Nadal on the ropes. That is what is so disconcerting, and the excuse cannot be that he is really young and/or he hasn't been there before.

He has been there, and he knows better.

 

[Kieran]

He didn't exactly "have Rafa on the ropes."

It's a beauty of the tennis scoring system, each set stands alive as a battle in itself. Rafa is great at resetting the defaults after losing a set. They begin the second from scratch, Rafa serving first. He broke for 4-2, so I'm not sure where he was "on the ropes", exactly...

 

[brokenshoelace]

Djokovic served at 67% in the second set; higher than he did in the first.

You're right B.S, but at the time I recall saying that he was suddenly taking off pace in both the serve and rally shot. Couldn't really understand why. I recall someone (tented?) observing that he looked really pink. Not sure if he had breathing problems. It was just odd to see him let go once he went a set up. He totally got what he deserved. That's not how you beat the King of Clay in his palace..

I never said Novak served particularly well (I thought he served decent throughout, for the most part) or played well. It was obvious he was struggling with the conditions, struggling physically and struggling to find his range and step in to take the ball early. I was just pointing out an inaccuracy that was stated above.

 

[calitennis127]

He didn't exactly "have Rafa on the ropes."

It's a beauty of the tennis scoring system, each set stands alive as a battle in itself. Rafa is great at resetting the defaults after losing a set. They begin the second from scratch, Rafa serving first. He broke for 4-2, so I'm not sure where he was "on the ropes", exactly...

If Djokovic wins the second set, the match is all but over. If Djokovic plays to his potential and gets two breaks in the second set, he wins the set. Therefore, Djokovic was frankly about 20 to 25 minutes of his elite tennis from having the match in the palm of his hand.

Nadal was not coming down from 2 sets to 0 against Djokovic. No way, no how. He wasn't playing Isner yesterday.

 

[Kieran]

He didn't exactly "have Rafa on the ropes."

It's a beauty of the tennis scoring system, each set stands alive as a battle in itself. Rafa is great at resetting the defaults after losing a set. They begin the second from scratch, Rafa serving first. He broke for 4-2, so I'm not sure where he was "on the ropes", exactly...

If Djokovic wins the second set, the match is all but over. If Djokovic plays to his potential and gets two breaks in the second set, he wins the set. Therefore, Djokovic was frankly about 20 to 25 minutes of his elite tennis from having the match in the palm of his hand.

Nadal was not coming down from 2 sets to 0 against Djokovic. No way, no how. He wasn't playing Isner yesterday.

That's hardly "on the ropes." I mean, any player who wins the first against the greatest player in history on the surface, can hardly be said to have that man on the ropes...

 

[Ricardo]

I think the scoreline flattered Novak. After he bailed in the 2nd set the thing was over apart from token resistance. That was my own personal feeling anyway. I confess I lost interest. I spent more time watching a Magnus Carlsen match on my computer than the last 2 sets!

Co-signed.

Finally tapped into my inner masochist and forced myself to watch the whole match. To me, it was pretty obvious that instead of stepping it up in the 2nd set, he became tentative, passive, diffident - almost as though he was waiting for Ralf to make his move instead of pressing the battle. It was over after the 2nd set.

typical hindsight bs, trying to look smart. I know you were thinking that Novak was gonna turn it around, but of course after the match you 'know it was over after the 2nd set'.

yeah, sure.

Nadal was too good, get over it with the excuses already.

(i know Novak Djokovic is smart, good sport and got serious game, but how the hell did he attract all these 'fans' from the armpit?) :laydownlaughing

 

[Ricardo]

He didn't exactly "have Rafa on the ropes."

It's a beauty of the tennis scoring system, each set stands alive as a battle in itself. Rafa is great at resetting the defaults after losing a set. They begin the second from scratch, Rafa serving first. He broke for 4-2, so I'm not sure where he was "on the ropes", exactly...

If Djokovic wins the second set, the match is all but over. If Djokovic plays to his potential and gets two breaks in the second set, he wins the set. Therefore, Djokovic was frankly about 20 to 25 minutes of his elite tennis from having the match in the palm of his hand.

Nadal was not coming down from 2 sets to 0 against Djokovic. No way, no how. He wasn't playing Isner yesterday.

Novak won a set, which is what Roger Federer has done a few times himself. To define that as 'on the ropes' is pushing it, considering we do in fact have the greatest clay courter EVER, and he also happens to be the greatest warrior in sport I've seen.

 

[Kieran]

I think the scoreline flattered Novak. After he bailed in the 2nd set the thing was over apart from token resistance. That was my own personal feeling anyway. I confess I lost interest. I spent more time watching a Magnus Carlsen match on my computer than the last 2 sets!

Co-signed.

Finally tapped into my inner masochist and forced myself to watch the whole match. To me, it was pretty obvious that instead of stepping it up in the 2nd set, he became tentative, passive, diffident - almost as though he was waiting for Ralf to make his move instead of pressing the battle. It was over after the 2nd set.

That's correct, Nehmeth, and over the four matches Nole won since the US Open, I think he broke serve in the first service game of almost every set, which I feared would happen yesterday, but instead of the first set making Nole stronger, it had the opposite effect - and then Rafa kicked in...

 

[Federberg]

I think the scoreline flattered Novak. After he bailed in the 2nd set the thing was over apart from token resistance. That was my own personal feeling anyway. I confess I lost interest. I spent more time watching a Magnus Carlsen match on my computer than the last 2 sets!

Co-signed.

Finally tapped into my inner masochist and forced myself to watch the whole match. To me, it was pretty obvious that instead of stepping it up in the 2nd set, he became tentative, passive, diffident - almost as though he was waiting for Ralf to make his move instead of pressing the battle. It was over after the 2nd set.

typical hindsight bs, trying to look smart. I know you were thinking that Novak was gonna turn it around, but of course after the match you 'know it was over after the 2nd set'.

yeah, sure.

Nadal was too good, get over it with the excuses already.

(i know Novak Djokovic is smart, good sport and got serious game, but how the hell did he attract all these 'fans' from the armpit?) :laydownlaughing

Not on my part ricardo As you know I'm a Fed fan. When Novak lost that 2nd set, I started focusing more on a chess match I had on my computer. Still had the tv on, but now the volume was down. I wasn't feeling good about Novaks chances! I recall saying on the streaming chat - in the 1st set - that Novak had that look about him that he could either straight set Rafa or lose with a flat performance

 

[Ricardo]

i bet someone wants to put an asterisk next to RG14 final. Nadal was given the win, Novak didn't play his best.... should be a rematch until both play their best, maybe they will produce a 10 hour match in Nth try with both the winner and loser in hospital in critical condition......

 

[Federberg]

^personally I hate talk about asterisks. A win is a win is a win. I might not be happy about who wins, but they won