Did Djokovic really play that poorly?

brokenshoelace

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Front242 said:
^ No opponent needed to be amazing to beat Nadal today, just more focused, less errors and not botching leads or losing the match on a double fault.

REALLY disagree with this. You are absolutely, 100%, NOT going to beat Nadal at the French Open unless you play super clean, great tennis.

Now yes, Novak didn't play well. But to say that "no opponent needed to be amazing to beat Nadal today" is a bit outrageous. First of all, there was only one opponent who could have beaten him, and that's the one who was standing across the net. Secondly, while again, I agree Novak didn't play well, you're simplifying matters to the point where it's way too unrealistic.

There's a reason both Murray and Djokovic talked about how difficult it was to play aggressive, play clean, control the ball, etc...against Nadal on in these conditions. Novak himself said in the press conference that there was no way he wasn't going to have ups and downs against Nadal on this court in a match like this, but the main problem was that he was unable to play well in key moments (I agree with him on that, and I also admit he didn't play well on the whole).

But again, many of the above post reveal that people are absolutely oblivious to what Nadal does on a clay court, and how the conditions play right into his game. It's really not nearly as easy as "keeping focus and making less errors" especially with the controlled aggression you need to be playing with.
 

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Front242 said:
^ No opponent needed to be amazing to beat Nadal today, just more focused, less errors and not botching leads or losing the match on a double fault. The fact that Djokovic was far from amazing made it all the more easy for Nadal to win, which he deserved to as he committed less slop but it wasn't that clean a match from either guy. The stats were close.

I disagree. If someone played average vs. rafa's average (like today, according to you), most likely they'd lose.
 

brokenshoelace

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zalvar said:
Front242 said:
^ No opponent needed to be amazing to beat Nadal today, just more focused, less errors and not botching leads or losing the match on a double fault. The fact that Djokovic was far from amazing made it all the more easy for Nadal to win, which he deserved to as he committed less slop but it wasn't that clean a match from either guy. The stats were close.

I disagree. If someone played average vs. rafa's average (like today, according to you), most likely they'd get straight setted in routine fashion.

Fixed.
 

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Broken_Shoelace said:
zalvar said:
Front242 said:
^ No opponent needed to be amazing to beat Nadal today, just more focused, less errors and not botching leads or losing the match on a double fault. The fact that Djokovic was far from amazing made it all the more easy for Nadal to win, which he deserved to as he committed less slop but it wasn't that clean a match from either guy. The stats were close.

I disagree. If someone played average vs. rafa's average (like today, according to you), most likely they'd get straight setted in routine fashion.

Fixed.

Aw, thankss
 

calitennis127

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Those who think they sound smart by saying that "controlled aggression" is what you need against Nadal on a clay court are really missing the point about today's match. Of course you need some level of "controlled aggression" against Nadal. Of course you need to be consistent. Everyone knows this.

But Djokovic lost today because in the second set, for whatever reason, he looked utterly gassed and spent. The first thing to go was his first serve. The next thing to happen was a slew of cheap errors. Nadal - being the opportunist that he is - turned up his level, particularly with the forehand and made some great shots.

But the issue today was not primarily how the conditions played into Nadal's favor. The issue was why and how Djokovic's level just sunk in the second set, particularly with respect to first-serve percentage. Nadal being a bit more crisp in the rallies should not make your first-serve percentage dip into the 30's for an entire set.
 

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calitennis127 said:
Those who think they sound smart by saying that "controlled aggression" is what you need against Nadal on a clay court are really missing the point about today's match. Of course you need some level of "controlled aggression" against Nadal. Of course you need to be consistent. Everyone knows this.

But Djokovic lost today because in the second set, for whatever reason, he looked utterly gassed and spent. The first thing to go was his first serve. The next thing to happen was a slew of cheap errors. Nadal - being the opportunist that he is - turned up his level, particularly with the forehand and made some great shots.

But the issue today was not primarily how the conditions played into Nadal's favor. The issue was why and how Djokovic's level just sunk in the second set, particularly with respect to first-serve percentage. Nadal being a bit more crisp in the rallies should not make your first-serve percentage dip into the 30's for an entire set.

Yes? What's your point exactly? Novak knew he needed good 1st serves against someone like Rafa. It wasn't going in. He couldn't just put 1st serves in because he was only winning 30+% of his second serve. And it might as well just be a second serve if he decides to just put the 1st serve in. Alas, as it usually happens when you try too hard, mistakes happen.
 

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Djokovic served at 67% in the second set; higher than he did in the first.
 

brokenshoelace

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Groundbreaking mathematical revelation: 30 < 39 < 67.

Therefore, 67 is not into the 30's.
 

calitennis127

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zalvar said:
calitennis127 said:
Those who think they sound smart by saying that "controlled aggression" is what you need against Nadal on a clay court are really missing the point about today's match. Of course you need some level of "controlled aggression" against Nadal. Of course you need to be consistent. Everyone knows this.

But Djokovic lost today because in the second set, for whatever reason, he looked utterly gassed and spent. The first thing to go was his first serve. The next thing to happen was a slew of cheap errors. Nadal - being the opportunist that he is - turned up his level, particularly with the forehand and made some great shots.

But the issue today was not primarily how the conditions played into Nadal's favor. The issue was why and how Djokovic's level just sunk in the second set, particularly with respect to first-serve percentage. Nadal being a bit more crisp in the rallies should not make your first-serve percentage dip into the 30's for an entire set.

Yes? What's your point exactly? Novak knew he needed good 1st serves against someone like Rafa. It wasn't going in. He couldn't just put 1st serves in because he was only winning 30+% of his second serve. And it might as well just be a second serve if he decides to just put the 1st serve in. Alas, as it usually happens when you try too hard, mistakes happen.

I don't think he was trying any harder than he normally does. He was just off his game and fell down a step in the second set.
 

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Upon checking the statistics, the 67% figure for Djokovic's second set is correct, so I was wrong about how much it dipped. I would imagine though that in his last couple service games in that set my figure would not be too far off. I was slightly wrong on this occasion, just like certain incompetents who like to say that "with Nadal's current form, there is no way he beats (fill in the blank)" - showing that they don't understand how or why he has succeeded at the level he has.
 

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calitennis127 said:
zalvar said:
calitennis127 said:
Those who think they sound smart by saying that "controlled aggression" is what you need against Nadal on a clay court are really missing the point about today's match. Of course you need some level of "controlled aggression" against Nadal. Of course you need to be consistent. Everyone knows this.

But Djokovic lost today because in the second set, for whatever reason, he looked utterly gassed and spent. The first thing to go was his first serve. The next thing to happen was a slew of cheap errors. Nadal - being the opportunist that he is - turned up his level, particularly with the forehand and made some great shots.

But the issue today was not primarily how the conditions played into Nadal's favor. The issue was why and how Djokovic's level just sunk in the second set, particularly with respect to first-serve percentage. Nadal being a bit more crisp in the rallies should not make your first-serve percentage dip into the 30's for an entire set.

Yes? What's your point exactly? Novak knew he needed good 1st serves against someone like Rafa. It wasn't going in. He couldn't just put 1st serves in because he was only winning 30+% of his second serve. And it might as well just be a second serve if he decides to just put the 1st serve in. Alas, as it usually happens when you try too hard, mistakes happen.

I don't think he was trying any harder than he normally does. He was just off his game and fell down a step in the second set.

I don't think so either. I think, against Rafa, he normally tries harder with his serves, as he should because he can't just dominate Rafa from the back of the court like he can other players.
 

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zalvar said:
calitennis127 said:
I don't think he was trying any harder than he normally does. He was just off his game and fell down a step in the second set.

I don't think so either. I think, against Rafa, he normally tries harder with his serves, as he should because he can't just dominate Rafa from the back of the court like he can other players.

The point is - he shied away and minimized in the second set, which is when he needed to step up and seize the match. Fatigue in addition to some serving issues cost him the set.
 

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Djokovic was at least on a par with Nadal in the second set. He got rattled by the crowd interference when he was serving to take it to a tie break. If he'd taken that set 7-6 I think he'd have gone on to win, but he never recovered from that point in the match.
 

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zalvar said:
Front242 said:
^ No opponent needed to be amazing to beat Nadal today, just more focused, less errors and not botching leads or losing the match on a double fault. The fact that Djokovic was far from amazing made it all the more easy for Nadal to win, which he deserved to as he committed less slop but it wasn't that clean a match from either guy. The stats were close.

I disagree. If someone played average vs. rafa's average (like today, according to you), most likely they'd lose.

I never said playing average was enough but you wouldn't have needed to be utterly amazing to beat Nadal either. It wasn't even a long match and yet Nadal was extremely gassed in set 4. He was there for the taking by someone not having as many lulls in concentration as Novak. A healthy Nishikori or a Gulbis totally focused would've put up a damn good fight. Obviously purely hypothetical but those 2 could've challenged Nadal today without doubt imo.
 

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TennisFanatic7 said:
Djokovic was at least on a par with Nadal in the second set. He got rattled by the crowd interference when he was serving to take it to a tie break. If he'd taken that set 7-6 I think he'd have gone on to win, but he never recovered from that point in the match.

Yeah, once I saw the pitiful way he played that game at 5-6 in set 2 and not even forcing a tiebreak I knew he'd lost the match. Sure it was only 1 set all people will say....doesn't work that way against Nadal. That was the moment he lost the match. Just ask Ferrer although don't 'cos that clown admitted he stopped trying after losing the 2nd set. At least Novak tried.
 

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Front242 said:
zalvar said:
Front242 said:
^ No opponent needed to be amazing to beat Nadal today, just more focused, less errors and not botching leads or losing the match on a double fault. The fact that Djokovic was far from amazing made it all the more easy for Nadal to win, which he deserved to as he committed less slop but it wasn't that clean a match from either guy. The stats were close.

I disagree. If someone played average vs. rafa's average (like today, according to you), most likely they'd lose.

I never said playing average was enough but you wouldn't have needed to be utterly amazing to beat Nadal either. It wasn't even a long match and yet Nadal was extremely gassed in set 4. He was there for the taking by someone not having as many lulls in concentration as Novak. A healthy Nishikori or a Gulbis totally focused would've put up a damn good fight. Obviously purely hypothetical but those 2 could've challenged Nadal today without doubt imo.

An in form delpo could have won that match IMO. Neither played their best. Nadal deserves a lot of credit though, both are playing nervy tennis with little rhythm, but nadal stuck through it.
 

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Riotbeard said:
Front242 said:
zalvar said:
Front242 said:
^ No opponent needed to be amazing to beat Nadal today, just more focused, less errors and not botching leads or losing the match on a double fault. The fact that Djokovic was far from amazing made it all the more easy for Nadal to win, which he deserved to as he committed less slop but it wasn't that clean a match from either guy. The stats were close.

I disagree. If someone played average vs. rafa's average (like today, according to you), most likely they'd lose.

I never said playing average was enough but you wouldn't have needed to be utterly amazing to beat Nadal either. It wasn't even a long match and yet Nadal was extremely gassed in set 4. He was there for the taking by someone not having as many lulls in concentration as Novak. A healthy Nishikori or a Gulbis totally focused would've put up a damn good fight. Obviously purely hypothetical but those 2 could've challenged Nadal today without doubt imo.

An in form delpo could have won that match IMO. Neither played their best. Nadal deserves a lot of credit though, both are playing nervy tennis with little rhythm, but nadal stuck through it.

Don't get me wrong, Nadal of course deserves full credit but I'm just tired of the it's all Nadal crap we read here so often. There were some hideously ugly points won by each of them. Was thinking Del Potro too but then I said no because he hasn't been able to execute the DTL BH since 2009 and he'd badly need that shot to beat Nadal at RG imo.
 

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Riotbeard said:
Front242 said:
zalvar said:
Front242 said:
^ No opponent needed to be amazing to beat Nadal today, just more focused, less errors and not botching leads or losing the match on a double fault. The fact that Djokovic was far from amazing made it all the more easy for Nadal to win, which he deserved to as he committed less slop but it wasn't that clean a match from either guy. The stats were close.

I disagree. If someone played average vs. rafa's average (like today, according to you), most likely they'd lose.

I never said playing average was enough but you wouldn't have needed to be utterly amazing to beat Nadal either. It wasn't even a long match and yet Nadal was extremely gassed in set 4. He was there for the taking by someone not having as many lulls in concentration as Novak. A healthy Nishikori or a Gulbis totally focused would've put up a damn good fight. Obviously purely hypothetical but those 2 could've challenged Nadal today without doubt imo.

An in form delpo could have won that match IMO. Neither played their best. Nadal deserves a lot of credit though, both are playing nervy tennis with little rhythm, but nadal stuck through it.

These hypotheticals about whose level would have beaten Nadal on this or that day are completely irrelevant. Nadal is a parasite who sucks the life out of his opponent. He hit some nice winners today, but this was his best possible shotmaking display, and he only hit 1 more winner at his best venue than Djokovic on a day that everyone agrees wasn't close to being Djokovic's best.

The key to this match, from Nadal's perspective, was how he facilitated Djokovic's self-destruction.
 

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^ That's fine and well but neither played their best or even close for that matter so I think it's safe to say they both would've had more winners had their respective levels been higher.
 

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Front242 said:
Riotbeard said:
Front242 said:
zalvar said:
Front242 said:
^ No opponent needed to be amazing to beat Nadal today, just more focused, less errors and not botching leads or losing the match on a double fault. The fact that Djokovic was far from amazing made it all the more easy for Nadal to win, which he deserved to as he committed less slop but it wasn't that clean a match from either guy. The stats were close.

I disagree. If someone played average vs. rafa's average (like today, according to you), most likely they'd lose.

I never said playing average was enough but you wouldn't have needed to be utterly amazing to beat Nadal either. It wasn't even a long match and yet Nadal was extremely gassed in set 4. He was there for the taking by someone not having as many lulls in concentration as Novak. A healthy Nishikori or a Gulbis totally focused would've put up a damn good fight. Obviously purely hypothetical but those 2 could've challenged Nadal today without doubt imo.

An in form delpo could have won that match IMO. Neither played their best. Nadal deserves a lot of credit though, both are playing nervy tennis with little rhythm, but nadal stuck through it.

Don't get me wrong, Nadal of course deserves full credit but I'm just tired of the it's all Nadal crap we read here so often. There were some hideously ugly points won by each of them. Was thinking Del Potro too but then I said no because he hasn't been able to execute the DTL BH since 2009 and he'd badly need that shot to beat Nadal at RG imo.

Maybe. Did people need good form to win that match today? Yes, but Novak was average and lost to an average rafa. He could have won playing good tennis.

This is not an insult to rafa, as he is capable of much higher levels than he played today, although to be fair, tennis without much rhythm isn't gonna allow rafa to make too many flashy winners here.