Covid vaccine - opinions?

[El Dude]

AP, while I think you are hopelessly lost in your narrative, so I'm not what point there is in discussing any of this with you in good faith, I will say that one big error you make is that, as Britbox said, you confuse not trusting scientific institutions and political hacks like Fauci and profiteers like Pfizer with distrusting the scientific process.

Science should include debate, and it should not involve censoring I mean, isn't concerning to you at all that any and all dissenting views have been censored? Fauci literally said "I am the science," which is an absurd statement and very...unscientific. Science is not a person, not an institution. It is a process and should have nothing to do with political allegiances or authoritarian belief.

And again, please check this out: https://www.wsj.com/articles/fauci-...claration-covid-pandemic-lockdown-11640129116

It is just the tip of the iceberg, but should be a smoking gun for "true believers" like yourself.

Britbox, one interesting thing about Mullis is that he died in August of 2019. Perfect timing, no? He certainly would have been a thorn in the side of Fauci.

 

[Front242]

"But if you think that the unvaxxed are a danger to the vaxxd, that implies that you don't really trust it" !

You don't know what you are talking about. Unvaccinated individuals like you are champion are the main carriers of the viruses. You have got to seriously have a lack of understanding of biology and science not to accept it. You, Front and the rest of the ones who accept your views are serial anti science aggression are the main reason this pandemic is getting out of hand and the end is nowhere in sight. Your philosophy has killed more people than anything else. The vaccine can limit the effects of Covid in a host body's immune system but it's not 100 percent Covid 19 terminator or preventative. That's is how you keep pushing this neantheral narrative, if the vaccine vaccination shot is legitimate, it should totally inoculate the virus but since that isn't true it's a bullshit vaccine for a bullshit virus is your plight. Good Grief. Your anti science agressors will most likely follow up with their dumbass unsubstantiated propaganda.

Unvaxxed the main carriers my arse. I'm not allowed into pubs, restaurants, cafés or clubs so think again. How many others like me are supposedly infecting the planet do you reckon by sitting at home ? The vaxxed are the super spreaders and only an idiot would think otherwise. They're allowed in everywhere with no tests in most countries which is a complete joke and proves this is not about health at all. People out mingling with tons of other people in packed areas indoors v people siting at home. It doesn't take a genius to work out calling the unvaxxed the problem is absolute bollocks.

 

[Moxie]

Unvaxxed the main carriers my arse. I'm not allowed into pubs, restaurants, cafés or clubs so think again. How many others like me are supposedly infecting the planet do you reckon by sitting at home ? The vaxxed are the super spreaders and only an idiot would think otherwise. They're allowed in everywhere with no tests in most countries which is a complete joke and proves this is not about health at all. People out mingling with tons of other people in packed areas indoors v people siting at home. It doesn't take a genius to work out calling the unvaxxed the problem is absolute bollocks.

You should take into account that they way it works in Ireland is not the way it works everywhere. In the US, laws about who can enter where and how much people are vaccinated depends on state and local ordinances, as are mask mandates. So what you're saying to AP may have nothing at all to do with where he lives.

 

[Front242]

You should take into account that they way it works in Ireland is not the way it works everywhere. In the US, laws about who can enter where and how much people are vaccinated depends on state and local ordinances, as are mask mandates. So what you're saying to AP may have nothing at all to do with where he lives.

That's why I said most countries. Also, we have mask mandates here as well which I've no problem with for shopping etc. They're annoying and not proven to work but so be it. For every article you read saying masks work you'll find plenty more saying the opposite. You equally had clowns like Fauci and the WHO telling us not to wear them only to go full circle not long afterwards, which I posted a video of recently. I've still no problem wearing them anyway. It is what it is.

 

[El Dude]

You should take into account that they way it works in Ireland is not the way it works everywhere. In the US, laws about who can enter where and how much people are vaccinated depends on state and local ordinances, as are mask mandates. So what you're saying to AP may have nothing at all to do with where he lives.

But couldn't Ireland be taken as an example how the virus is still spreading, regardless of vaccination status? Or what about Gibraltar, with 100% vaxxed and Christmas cancelled?

 

[Front242]

But couldn't Ireland be taken as an example how the virus is still spreading, regardless of vaccination status? Or what about Gibraltar, with 100% vaxxed and Christmas cancelled?

Spreading is an understatement but Omicron is the common cold so hence the massive case numbers. The number of people scared silly over Omicron is unreal. Reading comments too it's mostly vaxxed and boosted people with it lol. If people don't wake up now, they never will.

https://www.thejournal.ie/latest-figures-covid-3-5642921-Dec2021/

 

[the AntiPusher]

See a guy like this wanted to prove to those that he didn't want the jab..while he was encouraging others not to get the vaccine jab..well he got his wish

Vaccine sceptic economist dies of Covid after refusing jab

Prominent Dutch thinker Robin Fransman argued for keeping vulnerable people in designated 'safe zones' while others gained natural immunity.

metro.co.uk

 

[Front242]

See a guy like wanted to prove to those that he didn't want the jab..while he was encouraging others not to get the vaccine jab..well he got his wish

Vaccine sceptic economist dies of Covid after refusing jab

Prominent Dutch thinker Robin Fransman argued for keeping vulnerable people in designated 'safe zones' while others gained natural immunity.

metro.co.uk

"He claimed jabs carry an ‘unknown risk’, rejecting findings that they carry an extremely low risk of serious side effects from independently-assessed vaccine trials bolstered by post-vaccine studies evaluating millions of recipients around the world."

Not worth reading the rest of the article when you see that. They most certainly do carry an unknown risk and anyone claiming otherwise must be a fortune teller seeing as these so called vaccines came out barely 1 year ago. There are ZERO long term health studies and now that this has mutated into a common cold (Omicron) any young or non vulnerable people taking boosters every few months need their heads examined. A comment I read a few days ago sums it up perfectly that seeing as Omicron is a common cold, most of us have had it about 67 times in our lives! Have you seen the number of heart problems out there ? A bit of common sense would tell you they're hiding a lot seeing as the FDA have asked for 75 fucking years to release Pfizer's data..

Go back and check the link I posted here https://www.tennisfrontier.com/threads/covid-vaccine-opinions.7132/post-454945

Below is from the Pfizer vaccine to save you looking it up and it's estimated only a tiny fraction ever report them to VAERS so the true numbers are massive. All those dead footballers and athletes add to yet more stats. The guy was right when he said these vaccines carry an unknown risk. You may be fine but you may also be far from fine or dead. Hardly worth the gamble for those with common sense for a common cold which is all Omicron is.

Besides, a link that a single person who was unvaxxed has died is hardly headline news out of 7.9 billion people. Find us a link that says billions or even millions unvaxxed are dying and people might take notice but you won't find that...

Notice how many articles are released about vaxxed people dying? Me too. Funny that! Not saying there's an agenda or anything globally...

Adverse drug reactions (ADRs)​

• Blood and lymphatic system disorders (122707)
• Cardiac disorders (162842)
• Congenital, familial and genetic disorders (1744)
• Ear and labyrinth disorders (94086)
• Endocrine disorders (4893)
• Eye disorders (105374)
• Gastrointestinal disorders (563942)
• General disorders and administration site conditions (1709518)
• Hepatobiliary disorders (6168)
• Immune system disorders (46429)
• Infections and infestations (232508)
• Injury, poisoning and procedural complications (159815)
• Investigations (407642)
• Metabolism and nutrition disorders (62608)
• Musculoskeletal and connective tissue disorders (798944)
• Neoplasms benign, malignant and unspecified (incl cysts and polyps) (5084)
• Nervous system disorders (1198819)
• Pregnancy, puerperium and perinatal conditions (7336)
• Product issues (4348)
• Psychiatric disorders (134574)
• Renal and urinary disorders (24232)
• Reproductive system and breast disorders (140839)
• Respiratory, thoracic and mediastinal disorders (307536)
• Skin and subcutaneous tissue disorders (383040)
• Social circumstances (20856)
• Surgical and medical procedures (39808)
• Vascular disorders (151918)

 

[Moxie]

That's why I said most countries. Also, we have mask mandates here as well which I've no problem with for shopping etc. They're annoying and not proven to work but so be it. For every article you read saying masks work you'll find plenty more saying the opposite. You equally had clowns like Fauci and the WHO telling us not to wear them only to go full circle not long afterwards, which I posted a video of recently. I've still no problem wearing them anyway. It is what it is.

Your qualification of "most countries" doesn't change the fact that that you call any claim other than yours "absolute bollocks." I'm not even sure if you're right about "most countries." There are a lot of different variables at work in a lot of countries, so I'd stop being so sure, if I were you, that you're the only one who is right, and everyone else is wrong. Which you essentially say in all of your posts. Until you get called out.

 

[Moxie]

But couldn't Ireland be taken as an example how the virus is still spreading, regardless of vaccination status? Or what about Gibraltar, with 100% vaxxed and Christmas cancelled?

I don't see why small countries like Ireland or certainly Gibraltar make good case studies. I think we can see clearly that vaccination doesn't stop the spread, but I get nothing but push-back from you and Front (especially,) that it helps staunch it, and also tends to make the cases amongst the vaccinated to be less onerous, physically, and thereby less of a burden on healthcare. And I don't see a meeting of the minds here, anytime soon. But my argument to Front was that he was citing specifically how it works in Ireland, which is not at all how it works in the US, which was what he was reacting to, in AP's remarks. It does have to be recognized that we live in different countries, under differing mandates, so we're comparing apples to oranges, and that's were I object to the words like "bollocks" when circumstances are different.

 

[Moxie]

@El Dude: I promised to bring this over from the ATP general news thread. You posted this, about athletes dying from covid vaccine:

Athlete collapses/deaths following vaccination

A former CIA-trained analyst checked the stories and found they were true. Why isn't the mainstream media doing these stories??

stevekirsch.substack.com

As I said, I read through a lot of these cases AND clicked on the links that Steve Kirsch's website provided. I have YET to find one that even mentions when the person who fell ill or died was vaccinated, or anything about vaccination at all. So to tie them even vaguely to vaccination, you'd have to go through and find out when each sport, each age group and each country required vaccinations for them, even to begin to draw a parallel. Plus, the age range is pretty wide, and in at least one case includes an unnamed (or aged) football referee. (Behind a German paywall, so even with my limited German, I could only read the first 2 sentences, which did not mention vaccine.)

But I also found this: it is from the British Journal of Medicine, which I think Front has quoted more than a few times (I could be wrong.) It was published in Nov. 2020, and was from a 4-year study of cardiac deaths in young athletes, starting as early as middle school.

Aetiology and incidence of sudden cardiac arrest and death in young competitive athletes in the USA: a 4-year prospective study

Objective To investigate the aetiology and incidence of sudden cardiac arrest and death (SCA/D) in US competitive athletes. Methods Prospective surveillance was conducted from 1 July 2014 to 30 June 2018 through the National Center for Catastrophic Sports Injury Research in collaboration with...

bjsm.bmj.com

Note that "cardiac arrest is the leading cause of death in young athletes."

What to know about sudden death in young people

Sudden cardiac death in young people is rare. It's not the same as sudden cardiac arrest. Learn about the risk factors and causes and when screening is needed.

www.mayoclinic.org

I find your posting of that article from Kirsch to be alarmist and misleading, at the very least. And I can't find a reason that he's a credible source. Including because he is an entrepreneur who had an interest in alternative COVID 19 therapies. So, if you're going to be skeptical of the motives of Big Pharma and others who stand to make money off of pandemic and the propaganda, you should be likewise skeptical of his motives.

 

[Front242]

Your qualification of "most countries" doesn't change the fact that that you call any claim other than yours "absolute bollocks." I'm not even sure if you're right about "most countries." There are a lot of different variables at work in a lot of countries, so I'd stop being so sure, if I were you, that you're the only one who is right, and everyone else is wrong. Which you essentially say in all of your posts. Until you get called out.

I was quite right in saying the unvaxxed are not the problem and that is what I was referring to as absolute bollocks. Until I get called out ? Prove to me that the vaccinated aren't massive super spreaders when no one tests them going to indoor venues in most countries (no need to put "most countries" in quotes as it's true) while the unvaccinated either stay at home as they're not allowed in or have to take a test to gain entry if they live in a country good enough to implement such controls, although they would clearly test EVERYONE if this was a genuine health concern which it isn't by their own admission by doing such stupid things as letting riddled vaxxed go where they please..

They're using coercion to ban people entry in the hope that they eventually decide to get vaccinated and make their scum leaders more money courtesy of Big Pharma. Again, reverting to back to "most countries", they do indeed allow people in with no test where they have those moronic covid passes which is the main cause of the spread of covid. I'm not telling everyone they're wrong any more than you are, especially if you re-read your quoted post....

I'm definitely, however, gonna point out how it's pointless posting an article about a whole 1 (!) person who died who was unvaccinated. You do realize how many vaxxed people die daily right ? How many articles do you see making such a big deal of vaxxed people dying? Not a whole lot, right? I'll revisit my phrase absolute bollocks if you don't mind, 'cos that's what all this media spin is and the world is an absolute shambles right now. Agenda pushing making the unvaxxed the bad guys. It's pathetic.

 

[Moxie]

I was quite right in saying the unvaxxed are not the problem and that is what I was referring to as absolute bollocks. Until I get called out ? Prove to me that the vaccinated aren't massive super spreaders when no one tests them going to indoor venues in most countries (no need to put "most countries" in quotes as it's true) while the unvaccinated either stay at home as they're not allowed in or have to take a test to gain entry if they live in a country good enough to implement such controls, although they would clearly test EVERYONE if this was a genuine health concern which it isn't by their own admission by doing such stupid things as letting riddled vaxxed go where they please..

They're using coercion to ban people entry in the hope that they eventually decide to get vaccinated and make their scum leaders more money courtesy of Big Pharma. Again, reverting to back to "most countries", they do indeed allow people in with no test where they have those moronic covid passes which is the main cause of the spread of covid. I'm not telling everyone they're wrong any more than you are, especially if you re-read your quoted post....

I'm definitely, however, gonna point out how it's pointless posting an article about a whole 1 (!) person who died who was unvaccinated. You do realize how many vaxxed people die daily right ? How many articles do you see making such a big deal of vaxxed people dying? Not a whole lot, right? I'll revisit my phrase absolute bollocks if you don't mind, 'cos that's what all this media spin is and the world is an absolute shambles right now. Agenda pushing making the unvaxxed the bad guys. It's pathetic.

Prove to me that the untaxed AREN'T the super-spreaders. Don't put it on me. You spout lots of vague ideas, but often without back up. Again, I will say you don't get to say what "most countries" do, because I'm not sure where there is a majority of countries doing any one thing. Maybe you mean the EU? Or the first world? I'd still challenge your claims. As in here: which countries allow people in with no test, only a vaccination card? I actually don't know of one, though it's only anecdotal of friends and their personal travels. Test required within 72 hours of travel, regardless of vaccination status: US into Canada and reciprocal. US in to France, England, Italy, Spain and reciprocal. Tell me of one country that vaccinated people can travel to freely without presenting a negative covid test within 72 hrs of travel, across international borders. Maybe there are some. The world is a big place. Now, there is no mandate for either vaccine or testing prior to domestic travel here in the US, which I think is idiotic. Issue for another day.

I offer you this website, Our World in Data, on deaths amongst vaxxed v. unvaxxed. They are reasonably reliable, and I can't hunt for websites all day, hoping that you might approve of them.

How do death rates from COVID-19 differ between people who are vaccinated and those who are not?

To understand how the pandemic is evolving, it’s crucial to know how death rates from COVID-19 are affected by vaccination status.

ourworldindata.org

I disagree with your assessment that the world is in absolute shambles right now. Maybe I'm getting inured, or I'm grading on a curve, but I think things are getting better. I do, however, understand why you, the unvaxxed, would feel like you're getting treated like the bad guys. You are. I'm even trying not to be that black-and-white person on the issue. I've been trying to hear you guys here. I am hoping that it's mellowing into a kind of flu that we can manage, and I do agree that we have to get back to some semblance of normalcy, though in some ways we will be forever changed. But I do think that vaccination is the way that we get closer to that. You guys might think that that is Big Pharma making a buck, but I'm not sure who else but Big Pharma would have the wherewithall to create vaccines. Your Aunt Bessie in her kitchen as an alternate? I know we will never see eye-to-eye on this, but I do believe that vaccination is the way to normalcy. That's my opinion.

 

[El Dude]

@El Dude: I promised to bring this over from the ATP general news thread. You posted this, about athletes dying from covid vaccine:

Athlete collapses/deaths following vaccination

A former CIA-trained analyst checked the stories and found they were true. Why isn't the mainstream media doing these stories??

stevekirsch.substack.com

As I said, I read through a lot of these cases AND clicked on the links that Steve Kirsch's website provided. I have YET to find one that even mentions when the person who fell ill or died was vaccinated, or anything about vaccination at all. So to tie them even vaguely to vaccination, you'd have to go through and find out when each sport, each age group and each country required vaccinations for them, even to begin to draw a parallel. Plus, the age range is pretty wide, and in at least one case includes an unnamed (or aged) football referee. (Behind a German paywall, so even with my limited German, I could only read the first 2 sentences, which did not mention vaccine.)

But I also found this: it is from the British Journal of Medicine, which I think Front has quoted more than a few times (I could be wrong.) It was published in Nov. 2020, and was from a 4-year study of cardiac deaths in young athletes, starting as early as middle school.

Aetiology and incidence of sudden cardiac arrest and death in young competitive athletes in the USA: a 4-year prospective study

Objective To investigate the aetiology and incidence of sudden cardiac arrest and death (SCA/D) in US competitive athletes. Methods Prospective surveillance was conducted from 1 July 2014 to 30 June 2018 through the National Center for Catastrophic Sports Injury Research in collaboration with...

bjsm.bmj.com

Note that "cardiac arrest is the leading cause of death in young athletes."

What to know about sudden death in young people

Sudden cardiac death in young people is rare. It's not the same as sudden cardiac arrest. Learn about the risk factors and causes and when screening is needed.

www.mayoclinic.org

I find your posting of that article from Kirsch to be alarmist and misleading, at the very least. And I can't find a reason that he's a credible source. Including because he is an entrepreneur who had an interest in alternative COVID 19 therapies. So, if you're going to be skeptical of the motives of Big Pharma and others who stand to make money off of pandemic and the propaganda, you should be likewise skeptical of his motives.

You mentioned Politifact in your response in the other thread...sorry, I just don't buy "fact checkers" - especially when some are funded by the people they're supposed to be checking.

And i'm not surprised that the articles don't mention vaccination. If you haven't noticed, it is pretty taboo to make the connection. People are discredited, de-platformed, and gaslighted. There's a veritable EPIDEMIC of vax injuries and deaths, but it isn't being reported on mainstream media - at all. And that includes NPR.

As for Kirsch, I don't know - he's got his agenda, but so does everyone. But I appreciate his passion.

My sense is that cardiac arrest in athletes has gone WAY up this year. I can't remember where I saw it, but there's a chart going around comparing 2021 to 2020 and it is pretty bad. How do you explain that? And why are people so quick to gaslight the vax injured?

 

[Moxie]

You mentioned Politifact in your response in the other thread...sorry, I just don't buy "fact checkers" - especially when some are funded by the people they're supposed to be checking.

And i'm not surprised that the articles don't mention vaccination. If you haven't noticed, it is pretty taboo to make the connection. People are discredited, de-platformed, and gaslighted. There's a veritable EPIDEMIC of vax injuries and deaths, but it isn't being reported on mainstream media - at all. And that includes NPR.

As for Kirsch, I don't know - he's got his agenda, but so does everyone. But I appreciate his passion.

My sense is that cardiac arrest in athletes has gone WAY up this year. I can't remember where I saw it, but there's a chart going around comparing 2021 to 2020 and it is pretty bad. How do you explain that? And why are people so quick to gaslight the vax injured?

I'm just saying you didn't prove that any of these are "vax-injured." Nor did Mr. Kirsch. Read those links he offers. I don't care if your "sense" is that those deaths have gone way up this year. Prove it. Your inclination is to believe that, let's face it. And you appreciate Kirsch's "passion." That's a bit pallid. I appreciate Fauci's passion, and you think he's basically a criminal. I just watched a documentary on Fauci, which was done by National Geographic, and one of the producers was Liz Garbus, who is a very creditable documentarian. They also go into the reasons he has been, and rightly, vilified. You might try watching that. To me, he has made mistakes, but the intentions are humanistic, and driven from the POV of a doctor and a scientist.

It is tiresome that you don't buy "fact checkers," but you buy people that support your worldview, however self-interested they may also be. Eventually we can never counter each others' facts if we completely doubt each others' sources. I question your post because I read it. When I tell you it doesn't document its facts, you say that there is a taboo about connecting death to vaccine, and that folks are getting gaslit for trying. But how can I counter that kind of ephemeral talk other than to say that I read what you put up and it doesn't present the facts? You may be willing to chase ghosts, but I am not. I have presented you with my issues as to that article. Now you can chase up the facts or not. Those deaths are listed by month, by sport, by country and by age group. You could figure out what sports, in what countries and at what ages had vaccination mandates, at the very least. I would skip the older athletes that died of heart attack, because they would likely have done, anyway. Some of those listed are middle-schoolers before anyone was vaccinating anyone younger than 18. And I already gave you a study that says sudden death in young athletes is due to cardiac issues, by and large. And that study predates the pandemic. So maybe focus on professional athletes and the vaccine mandates, as the timelines would be clearer?

Even Front sometimes provides statistics that make the relook at things. But this one is full of holes. IMO.

 

[the AntiPusher]

I'm just saying you didn't prove that any of these are "vax-injured." Nor did Mr. Kirsch. Read those links he offers. I don't care if your "sense" is that those deaths have gone way up this year. Prove it. Your inclination is to believe that, let's face it. And you appreciate Kirsch's "passion." That's a bit pallid. I appreciate Fauci's passion, and you think he's basically a criminal. I just watched a documentary on Fauci, which was done by National Geographic, and one of the producers was Liz Garbus, who is a very creditable documentarian. They also go into the reasons he has been, and rightly, vilified. You might try watching that. To me, he has made mistakes, but the intentions are humanistic, and driven from the POV of a doctor and a scientist.

It is tiresome that you don't buy "fact checkers," but you buy people that support your worldview, however self-interested they may also be. Eventually we can never counter each others' facts if we completely doubt each others' sources. I question your post because I read it. When I tell you it doesn't document its facts, you say that there is a taboo about connecting death to vaccine, and that folks are getting gaslit for trying. But how can I counter that kind of ephemeral talk other than to say that I read what you put up and it doesn't present the facts? You may be willing to chase ghosts, but I am not. I have presented you with my issues as to that article. Now you can chase up the facts or not. Those deaths are listed by month, by sport, by country and by age group. You could figure out what sports, in what countries and at what ages had vaccination mandates, at the very least. I would skip the older athletes that died of heart attack, because they would likely have done, anyway. Some of those listed are middle-schoolers before anyone was vaccinating anyone younger than 18. And I already gave you a study that says sudden death in young athletes is due to cardiac issues, by and large. And that study predates the pandemic. So maybe focus on professional athletes and the vaccine mandates, as the timelines would be clearer?

Even Front sometimes provides statistics that make the relook at things. But this one is full of holes. IMO.

Front is just another type (European) of Right wing propaganda derelict. No way him or El Dude believe that an unvaccinated body has the same immune system as a vaccine vaccinated body does. Yet they keep this bullshit going because it supports their right wing narrative. No more nothing Less.

 

[Moxie]

Front is just another type (European) of Right wing propaganda derelict. No way him or El Dude believe that an unvaccinated body has the same immune system as a vaccine vaccinated body does. Yet they keep this bullshit going because it supports their right wing narrative. No more nothing Less.

Oh, they do, and El Dude isn't on the right. You are being overly reductive about this.

 

[Front242]

Front is just another type (European) of Right wing propaganda derelict. No way him or El Dude believe that an unvaccinated body has the same immune system as a vaccine vaccinated body does. Yet they keep this bullshit going because it supports their right wing narrative. No more nothing Less.

You might want to go and look at the definition of what right wing actually is as I'm none of the things associated with it and have zero political interests. The only bullshit here is your complete lack of comprehension that Omicron is a common cold. If your immune system is so crap you can't fight off a common cold then by all means keep getting jabbed with this crap for the rest of your life. My immune system is more than capable of getting over a damn cold ffs and pretty sure it's the same for the majority on this fucked up planet.

 

[El Dude]

I'm just saying you didn't prove that any of these are "vax-injured." Nor did Mr. Kirsch. Read those links he offers. I don't care if your "sense" is that those deaths have gone way up this year. Prove it. Your inclination is to believe that, let's face it. And you appreciate Kirsch's "passion." That's a bit pallid. I appreciate Fauci's passion, and you think he's basically a criminal. I just watched a documentary on Fauci, which was done by National Geographic, and one of the producers was Liz Garbus, who is a very creditable documentarian. They also go into the reasons he has been, and rightly, vilified. You might try watching that. To me, he has made mistakes, but the intentions are humanistic, and driven from the POV of a doctor and a scientist.

It is tiresome that you don't buy "fact checkers," but you buy people that support your worldview, however self-interested they may also be. Eventually we can never counter each others' facts if we completely doubt each others' sources. I question your post because I read it. When I tell you it doesn't document its facts, you say that there is a taboo about connecting death to vaccine, and that folks are getting gaslit for trying. But how can I counter that kind of ephemeral talk other than to say that I read what you put up and it doesn't present the facts? You may be willing to chase ghosts, but I am not. I have presented you with my issues as to that article. Now you can chase up the facts or not. Those deaths are listed by month, by sport, by country and by age group. You could figure out what sports, in what countries and at what ages had vaccination mandates, at the very least. I would skip the older athletes that died of heart attack, because they would likely have done, anyway. Some of those listed are middle-schoolers before anyone was vaccinating anyone younger than 18. And I already gave you a study that says sudden death in young athletes is due to cardiac issues, by and large. And that study predates the pandemic. So maybe focus on professional athletes and the vaccine mandates, as the timelines would be clearer?

Even Front sometimes provides statistics that make the relook at things. But this one is full of holes. IMO.

It is just one of many elements of this. I posted that article because someone asked. Should nothing be posted unless it is supported by medical journals? This is a casual conversation, not a court of law, and, as you know, just about anyone can find anything to support their argument.

You are really making too much of this. You might not find Kirsch credible, but that doesn't mean he isn't, or that he's mainly about self-interest. I mean, we can write EVERYONE off that way - including your dear Dr Fauci. As for Fauci, don't even get me started. I'm glad you enjoyed your NatGeo documentary, now go read RJK's book for a different take.

 

[El Dude]

I personally find Ben Shapiro really irritating, but this is a good summation (from his twitter):

1. Cloth masks are ineffective against omicron (Leanna Wen, CNN);
2. The vaccinated can spread and get covid;
3. The death rate is comparable to the flu (Chris Hayes);
4. Many people are entering hospitals with covid, not from covid (Fauci);
5. Natural immunity is a reason omicron hasn't been as virulent (Fauci);
6. We have to take into account societal needs, not just spread prevention (CDC);
7. The asymptomatic should not be tested (NFL);
8. We should focus on hospitalizations and deaths, not case rate (Biden);
9. Children are not at risk and schools should remain open;
10. Covid is predominantly an illness affecting the immunocompromised and elderly and we should not shut down society.

What is crazy is that people have been saying this stuff for almost TWO YEARS, but it has been ignored or vilified. In particular, #4, which has been ignored as fear has been ramped up because there's been no differentiation between "death from Covid" and "death with Covid."

The main promulgator of misinformation is the mainstream media. Or from one of the greatest films of all time: