Cincinnati Quarterfinal: Federer/Nadal

[calitennis127]

Ever heard of a down-the-line forehand?

In the great scheme of things how often are you in a position to hit a DTL forehand?

If you're controlling the point, the way to go is try and pin Nadal deep on the backhand. If he's stepping back across, keep going back behind him. He hit quite a few UFE's himself there by trying to do to much with it when lost patience. Once you're putting him out of court then go back cross court. Federer did that quite often tonight with quite a lot of success. Djokovic does it/did it quite a lot also.

Obviously, You've got to be controlling the point in the first place.

Federer's main problem was getting the ball away from the Nadal forehand when he was defending. Largely because Nadal as always was going after Fed's backhand - moreso as the match went on.

Where Federer fell a little short for me was ROS. Particularly on the second serve. He did go very agressive on a couple in third set - going inside out. He needs to be more aggressive in that department.

Otherwise, I don't think he did a whole lot wrong. The match swung on a couple of games.

I made that quick remark in the chat because of lack of space. My broader point is about any time Federer is moving right, to his forehand side. Every single time he goes crosscourt, even if Nadal is completely out of position to deal with something down-the-line or simply deep/wide to the forehand.

Federer has hit plenty of forehands down the line moving to his right. Going CC forehand is the equivalent, for Federer playing Nadal, of the heroin addict shooting it up one more time, and one more time after that.

 

[calitennis127]

Cali, I want you to write here the formula...how Roger should play Rafa to beat him every single time. And please allow me to pick it apart. Go.

murat.. why would you subject yourself to such foolishness.. There has got to be an area in your home that may need a new coat of paint. please do that and watch it dry instead of responding to another tiresome post from that poster about how derelict he feels Fed was against Rafa.

AP you are right brother. Cali, ignore me please, I was not serious

Too late.

 

[brokenshoelace]

Players are there to play, not referee. Challenge system is a bad one.

I agree with the first half for sure. Just because there's a challenge system, doesn't mean the linesperson (and umpire) should get a pass on this. It's their job to call the lines (and in the case of the umpire, overrule when necessary). However, the challenge system IS there so might as well use it, especially when the match was over. It's not like Roger had to stop midway through a rally or anything, and therefore risked losing the point.

 

[DarthFed]

Even though Fed played quite good today, do u guys think he has enough
fuel for five set matches under his current physical conditions.. He had hard
time keeping his level in 3rd set itself.

No he does not. And you need more than 1.5 good sets to win at slams. I still think Roger will be heading home before the QF or he will be a sacrificial lamb in one of them. Time to hit the reset button and get 2013 out of his mind. His crowning achievement appears to be a loss to a guy who has never done anything in Cincy.

what about the last 3 games of the match. Roger played well.. Roger still has the ability to win and it took an Herculean effort by Rafa to win this match. Don't be disrespectful Darth.. What else could Roger done.. He is playing against someone that is an incredible bad match up him , plain and simple

It didn't take a Herculean effort, Rafa stepped up for a couple games and the rest was cake. Like I said, this is not some incredible performance from Roger, people just forget that the guy was once great. It happens quickly when you have 7 months like he had. Suddenly a QF loss with 1.5 good sets at one of his best tournaments is a great result! Next it will be a positive result if he wins more than 2 matches in a row at the USO.

What else could he have done? Return decently, not shank like crazy near the end of the 2nd set, and hit backhands that aren't begging to be put away. This is Rafa on a very fast hard court, he is actually not a bad matchup there at all. It was cake in the end, 8 of the last 11 games went to Rafa. Roger does still have the ability to win, he just hasn't shown it at all this year and tonight was no different.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Cali, I want you to write here the formula...how Roger should play Rafa to beat him every single time. And please allow me to pick it apart. Go.

Lovely. It's nice to see that you're actually willing to have a debate and have your views challenged by someone who gets on your nerves.

There are a number of items on the list:

1) The BH return: I know that Nadal does a good job of mixing up his serve placement and making Federer guess, particularly on crucial points. However, the fact of the matter is, Nadal most of the time serves to the Federer backhand and this is no secret to either player. A couple rules for Federer to follow are:

a) stop slicing unless you have to because it is that wide. The few times that the slice works are poisonous to Federer because he thinks he can go back to it. Get away from the slice.

b) generally return to the Nadal BH if you can, but most importantly hit with depth.

c) try to run around the BH more and punish weaker serves.

Overall, there is no excuse for the inconsistency Federer displays with the backhand return. It is simply a matter of reflex and neurological programming. A 45-year-old can improve his skills. At 32 and with world-class athleticism, Federer certainly can too. Moreover, Federer doesn't need to "improve" his skills so much as sharpen them just a tad. This is a matter of repetition.

2) Keep up the good serving. Today he did that very well.

3) Get away from over-using the CC forehand. This is probably the most important item on the list, even more so than the BH return. On hardcourts, Federer wastes a number of opportunities for easy winners by hitting behind Nadal (because Nadal always gets to those balls), and on clay he simply dooms his chances by doing this nonsense. Hitting the CC forehand as much as he does against Nadal makes it downright impossible for him to beat Nadal on clay. Just impossible.

Now, the DTL forehand and the inside-out from the middle of the court work splendidly whenever Federer does it. The problem is he doesn't do it nearly enough. It is NOT low-percentage the way BS asserts; saying it is low-percentage is indeed BS. What is low-percentage is continuing the "mix it up" nonsense.

4) On short balls, go for winners every time. Yes, you will lose some with unforced errors, but so be it. On balance, if you commit to assertively and authoritatively going for winners off of all short balls, you will succeed far more than you fail if you're Federer (because Federer has terrific shotmaking capabilities), and you will set a tone for how the match is going to be played that Nadal simply has to live with. You keep the match on Roger Federer terms and off of Rafael Nadal terms.




Those 4 items are key....others I can probably think of.

1), a, b, c= Roger tries everything you say,EVERTHING, it sometimes works , sometimes it does not, because Rafa makes it not work.

2)Again, I am sure roger likes to serve well every single time and again, sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.

3)Totally disagree. Cross-court to Rafa's backhand is the one and ONLY way to have the upper hand in a rally, to set up that DTL forehand you talk about and once again sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.

4) Roger DOES go for winners every chance he gets, more than any other player I know and once again sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.

Do you see a trend there? I agree with almost everything you say but the problem is those things sometimes work, and sometimes they don't and the biggest reason for that is the guy that is on the other side of the net. Why do you think Roger at his peak pretty much beat everyone at will but not Rafa? Because Rafa exploits Roger's issues more than Roger does Rafa's. Bad match up, whatever you want to call it.

Roger could do everything you say to a T, and still lose. Actually I have seen that happen.

 

[ClayDeath]

rafa took control of the match at the end of the 2nd set and then just held on in the end.

he was able to keep the pressure on the other side of the net for the entire last frame.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Even though Fed played quite good today, do u guys think he has enough
fuel for five set matches under his current physical conditions.. He had hard
time keeping his level in 3rd set itself.

No he does not. And you need more than 1.5 good sets to win at slams. I still think Roger will be heading home before the QF or he will be a sacrificial lamb in one of them. Time to hit the reset button and get 2013 out of his mind. His crowning achievement appears to be a loss to a guy who has never done anything in Cincy.

what about the last 3 games of the match. Roger played well.. Roger still has the ability to win and it took an Herculean effort by Rafa to win this match. Don't be disrespectful Darth.. What else could Roger done.. He is playing against someone that is an incredible bad match up him , plain and simple

It didn't take a Herculean effort, Rafa stepped up for a couple games and the rest was cake. Like I said, this is not some incredible performance from Roger, people just forget that the guy was once great. It happens quickly when you have 7 months like he had.

What else could he have done? Return decently, not shank like crazy near the end of the 2nd set, and hit backhands that aren't begging to be put away. This is Rafa on a very fast hard court, he is actually not a bad matchup there at all. It was cake in the end, 8 of the last 11 games went to Rafa. Roger does still have the ability to win, he just hasn't shown it at all this year and tonight was no different.

Darth, my Brother.. The spin and the change of pace that these two bestow on each other is almost beyond belief.. these two are so wired to each other that it truly becomes a chess match mentality and their athleticism(the rackets included) is the pieces and the tennis court is the board. Their court vision is so keen that it takes a total misread of the spin and pace for them to mishit a ball. If you played this game like I think you have, you have to put yourself in Fed or Rafa shoes, watch the ball spinning across and over the net at that incredible speed and how would you address the ball. These guys are the Tennis Masters of the Universe.. Fed gave all he had. His movement was excellent and his anticipation was fantastic. Trust me , I had the same post if Rafa had lost

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Players are there to play, not referee. Challenge system is a bad one.

I agree with the first half for sure. Just because there's a challenge system, doesn't mean the linesperson (and umpire) should get a pass on this. It's their job to call the lines (and in the case of the umpire, overrule when necessary). However, the challenge system IS there so might as well use it, especially when the match was over. It's not like Roger had to stop midway through a rally or anything, and therefore risked losing the point.

BS, what if Roger was out of challenges and everyone and their uncles knew that ball was out? What then? Too bad? I am not saying don't use the challenge system, i am saying we have the technology to get the calls right every single time. Use it. Don't put it on the players. How many other sports do you know where players referee themselves?

 

[tented]

Players are there to play, not referee. Challenge system is a bad one.

I agree with the first half for sure. Just because there's a challenge system, doesn't mean the linesperson (and umpire) should get a pass on this. It's their job to call the lines (and in the case of the umpire, overrule when necessary). However, the challenge system IS there so might as well use it, especially when the match was over. It's not like Roger had to stop midway through a rally or anything, and therefore risked losing the point.

And how many times have players used challenges after match point which they know won't go their way, but do it anyway? Imagine a montage of clips of those moments.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Players are there to play, not referee. Challenge system is a bad one.

I agree with the first half for sure. Just because there's a challenge system, doesn't mean the linesperson (and umpire) should get a pass on this. It's their job to call the lines (and in the case of the umpire, overrule when necessary). However, the challenge system IS there so might as well use it, especially when the match was over. It's not like Roger had to stop midway through a rally or anything, and therefore risked losing the point.

And how many times have players used challenges after match point which they know won't go their way, but do it anyway? Imagine a montage of clips of those moments.

Tented. if I was a player and I swung and missed during the final point I would challenge.. Challenges don't roll over to the next match.. you have to treat them like personal\vacation work days.. unless you work for the federal or local government, you will just loose them.

 

[DarthFed]

Even though Fed played quite good today, do u guys think he has enough
fuel for five set matches under his current physical conditions.. He had hard
time keeping his level in 3rd set itself.

No he does not. And you need more than 1.5 good sets to win at slams. I still think Roger will be heading home before the QF or he will be a sacrificial lamb in one of them. Time to hit the reset button and get 2013 out of his mind. His crowning achievement appears to be a loss to a guy who has never done anything in Cincy.

what about the last 3 games of the match. Roger played well.. Roger still has the ability to win and it took an Herculean effort by Rafa to win this match. Don't be disrespectful Darth.. What else could Roger done.. He is playing against someone that is an incredible bad match up him , plain and simple

It didn't take a Herculean effort, Rafa stepped up for a couple games and the rest was cake. Like I said, this is not some incredible performance from Roger, people just forget that the guy was once great. It happens quickly when you have 7 months like he had.

What else could he have done? Return decently, not shank like crazy near the end of the 2nd set, and hit backhands that aren't begging to be put away. This is Rafa on a very fast hard court, he is actually not a bad matchup there at all. It was cake in the end, 8 of the last 11 games went to Rafa. Roger does still have the ability to win, he just hasn't shown it at all this year and tonight was no different.

Darth, my Brother.. The spin and the change of pace that these two bestow on each other is almost beyond belief.. these two are so wired to each other that it truly becomes a chess match mentality and their athleticism(the rackets included) is the pieces and the tennis court is the board. Their court vision is so keen that it takes a total misread of the spin and pace for them to mishit a ball. If you played this game like I think you have, you have to put yourself in Fed or Rafa shoes, watch the ball spinning across and over the net at that incredible speed and how would you address the ball. These guys are the Tennis Masters of the Universe.. Fed gave all he had. His movement was excellent and his anticipation was fantastic. Trust me , I had the same post if Rafa had lost

Giving your all is only part of it. It is about execution and mainly in the big moments. Rafa got a few more returns in play at 5-4 in the 2nd and Roger ran for the hills for all but the last few games to avoid a 6-1 deciding set. 8 of the last 11 games to Rafa on the fastest hard court on tour. Spin that how you want, I call it more weakness in the most overrated rivalry in sports history. And with all due respect I doubt you have that same post if Rafa lost.

 

[the AntiPusher]

No he does not. And you need more than 1.5 good sets to win at slams. I still think Roger will be heading home before the QF or he will be a sacrificial lamb in one of them. Time to hit the reset button and get 2013 out of his mind. His crowning achievement appears to be a loss to a guy who has never done anything in Cincy.

what about the last 3 games of the match. Roger played well.. Roger still has the ability to win and it took an Herculean effort by Rafa to win this match. Don't be disrespectful Darth.. What else could Roger done.. He is playing against someone that is an incredible bad match up him , plain and simple

It didn't take a Herculean effort, Rafa stepped up for a couple games and the rest was cake. Like I said, this is not some incredible performance from Roger, people just forget that the guy was once great. It happens quickly when you have 7 months like he had.

What else could he have done? Return decently, not shank like crazy near the end of the 2nd set, and hit backhands that aren't begging to be put away. This is Rafa on a very fast hard court, he is actually not a bad matchup there at all. It was cake in the end, 8 of the last 11 games went to Rafa. Roger does still have the ability to win, he just hasn't shown it at all this year and tonight was no different.

Darth, my Brother.. The spin and the change of pace that these two bestow on each other is almost beyond belief.. these two are so wired to each other that it truly becomes a chess match mentality and their athleticism(the rackets included) is the pieces and the tennis court is the board. Their court vision is so keen that it takes a total misread of the spin and pace for them to mishit a ball. If you played this game like I think you have, you have to put yourself in Fed or Rafa shoes, watch the ball spinning across and over the net at that incredible speed and how would you address the ball. These guys are the Tennis Masters of the Universe.. Fed gave all he had. His movement was excellent and his anticipation was fantastic. Trust me , I had the same post if Rafa had lost

Giving your all is only part of it. It is about execution and mainly in the big moments. Rafa got a few more returns in play at 5-4 in the 2nd and Roger ran for the hills for all but the last few games to avoid a 6-1 deciding set. 8 of the last 11 games to Rafa on the fastest hard court on tour. Spin that how you want, I call it more weakness in the most overrated rivalry in sports history. And with all due respect I doubt you have that same post if Rafa lost.

Darth.. When Rafa looses.. I always show up afterwards.. I wouldn't loss slept if Fed won today.. Rafa gave it his best.. I said in the chat late in the 2nd set.. the only chance Rafa had was to attack Fed's bh and hopefully it breaks down... check the old posts

 

[DarthFed]

what about the last 3 games of the match. Roger played well.. Roger still has the ability to win and it took an Herculean effort by Rafa to win this match. Don't be disrespectful Darth.. What else could Roger done.. He is playing against someone that is an incredible bad match up him , plain and simple

It didn't take a Herculean effort, Rafa stepped up for a couple games and the rest was cake. Like I said, this is not some incredible performance from Roger, people just forget that the guy was once great. It happens quickly when you have 7 months like he had.

What else could he have done? Return decently, not shank like crazy near the end of the 2nd set, and hit backhands that aren't begging to be put away. This is Rafa on a very fast hard court, he is actually not a bad matchup there at all. It was cake in the end, 8 of the last 11 games went to Rafa. Roger does still have the ability to win, he just hasn't shown it at all this year and tonight was no different.

Darth, my Brother.. The spin and the change of pace that these two bestow on each other is almost beyond belief.. these two are so wired to each other that it truly becomes a chess match mentality and their athleticism(the rackets included) is the pieces and the tennis court is the board. Their court vision is so keen that it takes a total misread of the spin and pace for them to mishit a ball. If you played this game like I think you have, you have to put yourself in Fed or Rafa shoes, watch the ball spinning across and over the net at that incredible speed and how would you address the ball. These guys are the Tennis Masters of the Universe.. Fed gave all he had. His movement was excellent and his anticipation was fantastic. Trust me , I had the same post if Rafa had lost

Giving your all is only part of it. It is about execution and mainly in the big moments. Rafa got a few more returns in play at 5-4 in the 2nd and Roger ran for the hills for all but the last few games to avoid a 6-1 deciding set. 8 of the last 11 games to Rafa on the fastest hard court on tour. Spin that how you want, I call it more weakness in the most overrated rivalry in sports history. And with all due respect I doubt you have that same post if Rafa lost.

Darth.. When Rafa looses.. I always show up afterwards.. I wouldn't loss slept if Fed won today.. Rafa gave it his best.. I said in the chat late in the 2nd set.. the only chance Rafa had was to attack Fed's bh and hopefully it breaks down... check the old posts

Fair enough AP, the match swung when Rafa finally started getting some returns in play. He stepped up, Roger backed down for 6-7 games and that was all she wrote. Roger looked good for 1.5 sets, nothing to get pumped up for IMO. The man has shocked me many times before and making the semi of USO would qualify as another one though that's not even a good result as we know. This match further hammered home that point for me instead of fueling thoughts of a miracle at Flushing. For Roger 2014 can't come soon enough...

 

[britbox]

Fed/Roddick was the most overrated rivalry mate.

But all things considered the rivalry isn't just on a head to head - it's also what you win overall. They're both competing for silverware, not just against each other.

You didn't give Roger a prayer before the match. At least he showed up.

 

[ClayDeath]

roger played a high risk game. he knew he could lose. he also knew he could win quickly too with his chosen strategy.

this is not his first rodeo against nadal. roger is smarter than all of us. he knew exactly what he was doing.

high risk game also means a relatively high error count. on the average, high risk strategy does not work against nadal. nadal is able to make some adjustments and then just dig in. unfortunately for roger, he is left with no other options. he has to go for his shots.


44 unforced errors to be exact. and still it took nadal 3 sets and 5 match points to get by.

 

[ClayDeath]

it looks like nobody here gave roger a prayer.


I said it would go 3 sets.

roger took care of him at indian wells in straights last year so it was certainly do-able here.


that being said, it is what it is. nadal is one of the toughest competitors the sport has ever seen. he just does not go away when he is relatively healthy, willing, and able.

 

[the AntiPusher]

It didn't take a Herculean effort, Rafa stepped up for a couple games and the rest was cake. Like I said, this is not some incredible performance from Roger, people just forget that the guy was once great. It happens quickly when you have 7 months like he had.

What else could he have done? Return decently, not shank like crazy near the end of the 2nd set, and hit backhands that aren't begging to be put away. This is Rafa on a very fast hard court, he is actually not a bad matchup there at all. It was cake in the end, 8 of the last 11 games went to Rafa. Roger does still have the ability to win, he just hasn't shown it at all this year and tonight was no different.

Darth, my Brother.. The spin and the change of pace that these two bestow on each other is almost beyond belief.. these two are so wired to each other that it truly becomes a chess match mentality and their athleticism(the rackets included) is the pieces and the tennis court is the board. Their court vision is so keen that it takes a total misread of the spin and pace for them to mishit a ball. If you played this game like I think you have, you have to put yourself in Fed or Rafa shoes, watch the ball spinning across and over the net at that incredible speed and how would you address the ball. These guys are the Tennis Masters of the Universe.. Fed gave all he had. His movement was excellent and his anticipation was fantastic. Trust me , I had the same post if Rafa had lost

Giving your all is only part of it. It is about execution and mainly in the big moments. Rafa got a few more returns in play at 5-4 in the 2nd and Roger ran for the hills for all but the last few games to avoid a 6-1 deciding set. 8 of the last 11 games to Rafa on the fastest hard court on tour. Spin that how you want, I call it more weakness in the most overrated rivalry in sports history. And with all due respect I doubt you have that same post if Rafa lost.

Darth.. When Rafa looses.. I always show up afterwards.. I wouldn't loss slept if Fed won today.. Rafa gave it his best.. I said in the chat late in the 2nd set.. the only chance Rafa had was to attack Fed's bh and hopefully it breaks down... check the old posts

Fair enough AP, the match swung when Rafa finally started getting some returns in play. He stepped up, Roger backed down for 6-7 games and that was all she wrote. Roger looked good for 1.5 sets, nothing to get pumped up for IMO. The man has shocked me many times before and making the semi of USO would qualify as another one though that's not even a good result as we know. This match further hammered home that point for me instead of fueling thoughts of a miracle at Flushing. For Roger 2014 can't come soon enough...

this isn't 2011 when it was a done deal before the open started.. Nole recent vulnerability gives all the top other players a chance to claim the title.. Murray the champion, Djoker is the world's number 1, Rafa is playing the best so far this year and Fed is the all time great who still has his full arsenal of shots.. If the conditions stay hot and dry.. I think Fed and Rafa chances increases tremendously.. Hopefully the tennis gods will not give us a replay of the fiasco that occurs at SW19

 

[tented]

Players are there to play, not referee. Challenge system is a bad one.

I agree with the first half for sure. Just because there's a challenge system, doesn't mean the linesperson (and umpire) should get a pass on this. It's their job to call the lines (and in the case of the umpire, overrule when necessary). However, the challenge system IS there so might as well use it, especially when the match was over. It's not like Roger had to stop midway through a rally or anything, and therefore risked losing the point.

And how many times have players used challenges after match point which they know won't go their way, but do it anyway? Imagine a montage of clips of those moments.

Tented. if I was a player and I swung and missed during the final point I would challenge.. Challenges don't roll over to the next match.. you have to treat them like personal\vacation work days.. unless you work for the federal or local government, you will just loose them.

That's my point, AP. Players who challenge after match point, even though they know it won't change the outcome, but do it anyway. You see that quite a bit, and most times both players know it won't change things.

 

[DarthFed]

Fed/Roddick was the most overrated rivalry mate.

But all things considered the rivalry isn't just on a head to head - it's also what you win overall. They're both competing for silverware, not just against each other.

You didn't give Roger a prayer before the match. At least he showed up.

Who called Fed and Roddick a rivalry?

I agree with the rest. Part of the reason the Fed-Nadal matchup is elevated is because of what they achieved. But the matchup itself...it is 13-4 since the start of 2008 and 5-0 at slams. It hasn't been a contest for 5 years.

 

[the AntiPusher]

roger played a high risk game. he knew he could lose. he also knew he could win quickly too with his chosen strategy.

this is not his first rodeo against nadal. roger is smarter than all of us. he knew exactly what he was doing.

high risk game also means a relatively high error count. on the average, high risk strategy does not work against nadal. nadal is able to make some adjustments and then just dig in. unfortunately for roger, he is left with no other options. he has to go for his shots.


44 unforced errors to be exact. and still it took nadal 3 sets and 5 match points to get by.

good point Commander.. Actually Federer played one of the cleanest high risk tennis I have seen executed in a quite a while.it was a very entertaining match.. the good folks in Cincy was treated to a rare North American Fedal:clap