Biogenesis / Troicki / Cilic / Doping in Tennis

[ClayDeath]

tennis:


1.natural athletic ability and speed and movement: 30%

2. mad skills: 40%

3.mental tenacity, testicular fortitude, hunger, relentless will. and critical decision making/problem solving and court intelligence on the dead run if you will: 10%-13%

4. endurance: 17%-20%


does that sound about right?

tennis is not an endurance sport sports fans.



if the first 3 are in place, all the endurance in the world is not going to net you wins on the tennis courts.

in fact you are a futures level, struggling tennis player at best if the first 3 are not firmly in place. you have to have the gift of speed and movement and agility. and they then you have the have the skills which can only be earned with hard work and a blessing of a good health.


no amount of doping on the planet can buy you mental tenacity and testicular fortitude otherwise Anderson, berrdych, and almagro would have jumped on that stuff already. either you can perform in the clutch or you cannot. also critical decision making and problem solving on the dead run and court intelligence is not something that can be had from doping.


all the endurance and strength is useless in tennis if you don't have the first 3 firmly in place.


tennis is not cycling or American baseball or American football.

it is also not a team sport. you need mad god given athletic ability and you need mad skills.

 

[legolasmpn]

You can buy more endurance with EPO. Ferrer has tons of endurance no doubt to training hard but it's very suspicious to be linked to Biogenesis or do you think he just went there to sign autographs?

 

[ClayDeath]

welcome to the forum legolasmpn.

post away and enjoy the forum.

 

[DarthFed]

You can buy more endurance with EPO. Ferrer has tons of endurance no doubt to training hard but it's very suspicious to be linked to Biogenesis or do you think he just went there to sign autographs?

Ferrer has not been linked to biogenesis. It is said that there are tennis players on the biogenesis list but none have been released yet.

 

[DarthFed]

I hear you about the health difference Darth, but have all the improvements I have mentioned made the sport healthier for tennis players? Do we have more or less injuries than before? Has the average age of retirement due to injuries have gone up or gone down? I really don't know since I do not have the numbers.
What if ATP or other sport bodies have players sign waivers that stated they are not responsible for players having health issues dues to doping, and that they are allowed to do it but they would be responsible for the health repercussions themselves? Do you think people would sign it and just do it?

Improvements in nutrition, knowledge of fitness, shoes, racquets, etc can't really be considered risks to health or bad things in general. The one thing we can say is that slowing down the courts will undoubtedly lead to more injuries. Longer matches, longer, more brutal rallies will naturally cause more players to get hurt.

As for signing waivers, that would be something we might see happen in the future. But the problem with allowing that is still the same, those who want to play on a level field might be doing it at the risk of their health and those who value their health are going to be at a huge disadvantage.

 

[Moxie]

There are those who know more than we do who will tell us that some aspects of the as-to-now illegal substances that are not injurious to the health of the athlete. I can't attest to that, and remain on the side of those who are skeptical. I still think they put their long-term health at risk, not to mention their reputations, if they play around with dicey doctors and iffy drugs.

 

[ClayDeath]

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/blog/eye-on-baseball/23024816/arod-and-cruz-among-13-players-suspended-for-ties-to-biogenesis

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Sure, there is no doping in tennis.

http://www.itftennis.com/antidoping/news/decisions/decision-in-the-case-of-faisal-aldossri.aspx

 

[ClayDeath]

that is not doping. that is some clown who is pathetic in tennis and is probably living with a friend or a relative. I mean he simply cant make a living playing tennis.

that is an idiot who thought some form of doping would help him. he is also 32 years old.


his other job is flipping burgers so he can at least have 1 meal a day.


that is not called "doping in tennis".

 

[GameSetAndMath]

that is not doping. that is some clown who is pathetic in tennis and is probably living with a friend or a relative. I mean he simply cant make a living playing tennis.

that is an idiot who thought some form of doping would help him. he is also 32 years old.


his other job is flipping burgers so he can at least have 1 meal a day.


that is not called "doping in tennis".

I do agree that he cannot make a living of tennis and is probably ranked
outside 300. In tennis, doping seems to be more prevalent among
lower ranked players unlike in other sports such as baseball where
big names are the dopers.

 

[ClayDeath]

that is because tennis and doping do not work. this is a very highly skilled job mate.

lower level fools are more desperate so they experiment.

that is my opinion/estimation anyway.

 

[August]

that is not doping. that is some clown who is pathetic in tennis and is probably living with a friend or a relative. I mean he simply cant make a living playing tennis.

that is an idiot who thought some form of doping would help him. he is also 32 years old.


his other job is flipping burgers so he can at least have 1 meal a day.


that is not called "doping in tennis".

I do agree that he cannot make a living of tennis and is probably ranked
outside 300. In tennis, doping seems to be more prevalent among
lower ranked players unlike in other sports such as baseball where
big names are the dopers.

Former WADA preident Dick Pound seems to disagree:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2384113/Dick-Pound-Doping-widespread-sport.html#ixzz2aww1ZYlh

'It's pretty clear just from the numbers of people being caught that drug use is rampant, and it's rampant at the top end of sports.

'This isn't people ranked at No 300 taking drugs to boost them up the rankings, it's the people at the top who have used drugs to get there. I believe it's happening across sports. It's clear that cycling, athletics, swimming, tennis and soccer have major problems and are ruled by governing bodies in denial.'

I bolded the last sentence to explain how it's mostly lower-ranked guys getting caught.

Also, Pound's thoughts about tennis:

Of tennis, Pound adds: 'When you look back at the era of McEnroe and Connors, in their prime they looked like little old men compared to the brutes now, thrashing around for four hours with a force and intensity that's ridiculous. Has tennis got a problem? Of course it has.'

 

[ClayDeath]

that dude does not take into account the process of natural selection.

average touring pro in the top 100 was a midget or a pygmy back then.

average height of a touring pro in the top 100 today is 6 foot 2 and inching higher even as you read this.


the runaway speed of the sport is forcing the players to develop better fitness in the gym and on the road.


that still does not mean that tennis is an endurance sport.


they hit the ball differently these days. they are better athletes and they launch themselves into the oncoming ball. not everybody plays from 6 miles behind the baseline like the clay warrior does.


pound also does not take the technological advances into account.

athletes are just better, bigger, and stronger these days.

 

[August]

What I think is Pound's main point is that we've seen there's doping on top level in many sports. Unless we see big names in doping cases, they are either ahead of testing or the sanctioning bodies don't want to catch dopers.

 

[ClayDeath]

could that also mean that the most gifted and the best of the best don't bother with something that cant help them? could it be that it is their god given gifts, their mad skills, and their relentless will that is helping them achieve something that is not possible for ordinary men?

translation: they are among the best in history and they sure as hell did not get there by doping. they don't need it and they cant use it.

why does one have to assume that the top 4 or top 5 are doping?

this is a very highly skilled sport that cannot benefit from doping. it is also not an endurance sport and it is not a strength sport.

this is not cycling which is the ultimate endurance sport. you have to ride 30,000 miles a year just to maintain your fitness in that sport. and even then they have to dope.

this is not baseball, American football, or weightlifting either.


I think we may just have cycling in mind when we look at tennis.



that is just my own opinion anyway.

 

[Moxie]

I'm happy for everyone who wants to keep debating this, but I do believe we've run up against a wall. Those who believe that all levels of tennis could be dirty, and that the upper management may be covering up for them will never be convinced by an argument that doping doesn't really help you, at the top of tennis. And those who believe that, in the absence of any evidence, and given what it takes to be a top tennis player, beyond just stamina and good recovery, there is no reason to believe that the upper tiers of tennis dope. I don't think anyone at this point believes there is no doping in tennis. As to what it really is, remains to be revealed. But I don't see how the two factions will be resolved.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Talking of Recovery, I do remember vaguely something about
Novak finding a new method which he wanted to keep it secret.
It was something like sitting inside a globe (too vague). But,
Novak mentioned that it is completely legal.

If it is some ingenious method and it is legal, why is
everybody else not using it? Surely method would leak.

My wild guess here is that ITF/ATP must have more
thoroughly examined his recovery method and might
have told him that, "Hey Buddy, It is not proper,
don't do it and we will hush it up" and Djokovic
complied. Whatever he did before might not have been technically
illegal as it was completely new technique and often
law lags behind science and technology.

This conspiracy theory kind of explains as to
why Novak was depleted in the Wimbledon Final
after a 5-set semifinal with Delpo two days before
in complete contrast to the way he is usually
known to recover recently.

I know I am not giving any proof or for that
matter, even evidence. I am just in a wild
conspiracy theory mode right now.

For equal opportunity fingerpointing without evidence,
does it mean anything that Murray trains out of Miami
for substantial portions of the year and some famous
PED pushers operate out of Miami.

I will leave the floor to anybody who might have
more knowledge about these to discuss it further.
Although, I am just throwing the conspiracy theory out there,
I would prefer people to discuss it based on evidence instead
of going on a limb like me.

 

[ClayDeath]

he was made to look and actually be depleted by the fact that andy showed up to win that day.

andy played intelligently right from get go and would have no problem coming back even when he was falling a bit behind like he did.

in the process, andy showed him that he was going to take his will and his spirit away. and he did. that can deplete a man fairly quickly.



how could nole be tired when he declared 1 full day before the match that he was feeling fresh and ready.


he had the easiest route to the final. looks at his total time on courts also.

 

[ClayDeath]

andy shut him down cold. its really that simple.

 

[Moxie]

Talking of Recovery, I do remember vaguely something about
Novak finding a new method which he wanted to keep it secret.
It was something like sitting inside a globe (too vague). But,
Novak mentioned that it is completely legal.

If it is some ingenious method and it is legal, why is
everybody else not using it? Surely method would leak.

My wild guess here is that ITF/ATP must have more
thoroughly examined his recovery method and might
have told him that, "Hey Buddy, It is not proper,
don't do it and we will hush it up" and Djokovic
complied. Whatever he did before might not have been technically
illegal as it was completely new technique and often
law lags behind science and technology.

This conspiracy theory kind of explains as to
why Novak was depleted in the Wimbledon Final
after a 5-set semifinal with Delpo two days before
in complete contrast to the way he is usually
known to recover recently.

I know I am not giving any proof or for that
matter, even evidence. I am just in a wild
conspiracy theory mode right now.

For equal opportunity fingerpointing without evidence,
does it mean anything that Murray trains out of Miami
for substantial portions of the year and some famous
PED pushers operate out of Miami.

I will leave the floor to anybody who might have
more knowledge about these to discuss it further.
Although, I am just throwing the conspiracy theory out there,
I would prefer people to discuss it based on evidence instead
of going on a limb like me.

Yes, I think you're out on a limb right now. This is my objection...where people make leaps in connections without an substantiation. It impunes the players, and doesn't really move the conversation forward.

The Djokovic "globe" you're talking about is some oxygen egg that he was supposedly sometimes sitting in. (It's not really known how much he used it.) I do think the ITP should rule on it, but if you're question is why don't all players use it, the answer is because it's hugely expensive.

As to Murray training in Miami and Ferrer training in Valencia (Front's point,) I disagree with guilt-by-geographic association. That's too tenuous.

And I would say this about what you say about Djokovic's flag in the Wimbledon final after the tough semi with JMDP: if nothing else, it could say that he IS human and not using artificial stimulants. If it was just a matter of dope, he would certainly have made a better show of it. If it's down to how tough you are on a given day, it makes sense that sometimes he can summon it, and sometimes he can't.