Biogenesis / Troicki / Cilic / Doping in Tennis

[the AntiPusher]

I don't know if anyone posted this but Troicki's fiancee left Viktor. Here is them together coming to IW players party earlier this year

http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Suncica+Travica

Always wondered what a stunner like her was doing with a guy who looks like a convict anyway personally so I'm not surprised.

She is really a stunner.. agreed :heart:

 

[Front242]

There you go.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/tennis/a-disgraced-doctor-had-links-to-past-and-present-players/story-fnbe6xeb-1226495707956

Yes, but Ferrer denies any association with Garcia del Moral, and says he wouldn't even know him if he walked into the room. This article from puntodebreak.com directly addresses the accusation in The Australian that you cite. Sorry but it's in Spanish. You'll have to trust me on it for now, but I will translate it for you tomorrow, either on my blog or in a PM. Puntodebreak.com is a site that we've vetted, and link to on our front page, btw. Just because Ferrer is based in Valencia, doesn't mean that he works with the discredited doctor. And we do know that the internet/press is more than willing to make facile associations.

Yeah I saw that on a blog site but what's he gonna say, he's my best friend and I hang out with him every day. He's a funny guy and we like to just make jokes and dope around (pun intended). Personally I don't believe Ferrer sorry. No need to translate it for me as I wouldn't believe him anyway. The fact that he lives in the same city and Del Moral helped Barcelona and Valencia dope their way to success is all too much a coincidence for my liking. As for Errani saying she worked with him but not any more. Well, again what's she going to say but it doesn't look good for her. Especially with the other article I posted a few pages back claiming 220,000 people in Italy use PEDs. A laughable stat for their nation.

 

[Front242]

I don't know if anyone posted this but Troicki's fiancee left Viktor. Here is them together coming to IW players party earlier this year

http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Suncica+Travica

Always wondered what a stunner like her was doing with a guy who looks like a convict anyway personally so I'm not surprised.

She is really a stunner.. agreed :heart:

Check out these ones

 

[the AntiPusher]

I don't know if anyone posted this but Troicki's fiancee left Viktor. Here is them together coming to IW players party earlier this year

http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Suncica+Travica

Nice. Damn very Nice
Always wondered what a stunner like her was doing with a guy who looks like a convict anyway personally so I'm not surprised.

She is really a stunner.. agreed :heart:

Check out these ones

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

This topic just got interestinger...

 

[Moxie]

There you go.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/tennis/a-disgraced-doctor-had-links-to-past-and-present-players/story-fnbe6xeb-1226495707956

Yes, but Ferrer denies any association with Garcia del Moral, and says he wouldn't even know him if he walked into the room. This article from puntodebreak.com directly addresses the accusation in The Australian that you cite. Sorry but it's in Spanish. You'll have to trust me on it for now, but I will translate it for you tomorrow, either on my blog or in a PM. Puntodebreak.com is a site that we've vetted, and link to on our front page, btw. Just because Ferrer is based in Valencia, doesn't mean that he works with the discredited doctor. And we do know that the internet/press is more than willing to make facile associations.

Yeah I saw that on a blog site but what's he gonna say, he's my best friend and I hang out with him every day. He's a funny guy and we like to just make jokes and dope around (pun intended). Personally I don't believe Ferrer sorry. No need to translate it for me as I wouldn't believe him anyway. The fact that he lives in the same city and Del Moral helped Barcelona and Valencia dope their way to success is all too much a coincidence for my liking. As for Errani saying she worked with him but not any more. Well, again what's she going to say but it doesn't look good for her. Especially with the other article I posted a few pages back claiming 220,000 people in Italy use PEDs. A laughable stat for their nation.

You really just want to believe what you want to believe.

 

[Front242]

There you go.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/tennis/a-disgraced-doctor-had-links-to-past-and-present-players/story-fnbe6xeb-1226495707956

Yes, but Ferrer denies any association with Garcia del Moral, and says he wouldn't even know him if he walked into the room. This article from puntodebreak.com directly addresses the accusation in The Australian that you cite. Sorry but it's in Spanish. You'll have to trust me on it for now, but I will translate it for you tomorrow, either on my blog or in a PM. Puntodebreak.com is a site that we've vetted, and link to on our front page, btw. Just because Ferrer is based in Valencia, doesn't mean that he works with the discredited doctor. And we do know that the internet/press is more than willing to make facile associations.

Yeah I saw that on a blog site but what's he gonna say, he's my best friend and I hang out with him every day. He's a funny guy and we like to just make jokes and dope around (pun intended). Personally I don't believe Ferrer sorry. No need to translate it for me as I wouldn't believe him anyway. The fact that he lives in the same city and Del Moral helped Barcelona and Valencia dope their way to success is all too much a coincidence for my liking. As for Errani saying she worked with him but not any more. Well, again what's she going to say but it doesn't look good for her. Especially with the other article I posted a few pages back claiming 220,000 people in Italy use PEDs. A laughable stat for their nation.

You really just want to believe what you want to believe.

No different than yourself or Clay Death in that regard. The way I see it, at least Sara Errani was (wo)man enough to not deny she had worked with him and subsequently report she no longer was. Ferrer's outright denial kinda reeks of hiding the truth. I'm quite sure that if Del Moral hadn't been disgraced over the Armstrong scandal Ferrer would have no problem saying he worked with him. But he's just playing it safe by denying everything. I prefer Errani's honesty personally.

 

[Moxie]

There you go.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/tennis/a-disgraced-doctor-had-links-to-past-and-present-players/story-fnbe6xeb-1226495707956

Yes, but Ferrer denies any association with Garcia del Moral, and says he wouldn't even know him if he walked into the room. This article from puntodebreak.com directly addresses the accusation in The Australian that you cite. Sorry but it's in Spanish. You'll have to trust me on it for now, but I will translate it for you tomorrow, either on my blog or in a PM. Puntodebreak.com is a site that we've vetted, and link to on our front page, btw. Just because Ferrer is based in Valencia, doesn't mean that he works with the discredited doctor. And we do know that the internet/press is more than willing to make facile associations.

Yeah I saw that on a blog site but what's he gonna say, he's my best friend and I hang out with him every day. He's a funny guy and we like to just make jokes and dope around (pun intended). Personally I don't believe Ferrer sorry. No need to translate it for me as I wouldn't believe him anyway. The fact that he lives in the same city and Del Moral helped Barcelona and Valencia dope their way to success is all too much a coincidence for my liking. As for Errani saying she worked with him but not any more. Well, again what's she going to say but it doesn't look good for her. Especially with the other article I posted a few pages back claiming 220,000 people in Italy use PEDs. A laughable stat for their nation.

You really just want to believe what you want to believe.

No different than yourself or Clay Death in that regard. The way I see it, at least Sara Errani was (wo)man enough to not deny she had worked with him and subsequently report she no longer was. Ferrer's outright denial kinda reeks of hiding the truth. I'm quite sure that if Del Moral hadn't been disgraced over the Armstrong scandal Ferrer would have no problem saying he worked with him. But he's just playing it safe by denying everything. I prefer Errani's honesty personally.

I'm not denying it's possible, I'm simply looking at what's out there to be known. It's interesting that when Errani says she worked with the guy and is distancing herself, you find that honest. When Ferrer says he didn't work with the guy, he's lying. You only find one a more reliable narrator because they say want you want to hear.

 

[Front242]

Yes, but Ferrer denies any association with Garcia del Moral, and says he wouldn't even know him if he walked into the room. This article from puntodebreak.com directly addresses the accusation in The Australian that you cite. Sorry but it's in Spanish. You'll have to trust me on it for now, but I will translate it for you tomorrow, either on my blog or in a PM. Puntodebreak.com is a site that we've vetted, and link to on our front page, btw. Just because Ferrer is based in Valencia, doesn't mean that he works with the discredited doctor. And we do know that the internet/press is more than willing to make facile associations.

Yeah I saw that on a blog site but what's he gonna say, he's my best friend and I hang out with him every day. He's a funny guy and we like to just make jokes and dope around (pun intended). Personally I don't believe Ferrer sorry. No need to translate it for me as I wouldn't believe him anyway. The fact that he lives in the same city and Del Moral helped Barcelona and Valencia dope their way to success is all too much a coincidence for my liking. As for Errani saying she worked with him but not any more. Well, again what's she going to say but it doesn't look good for her. Especially with the other article I posted a few pages back claiming 220,000 people in Italy use PEDs. A laughable stat for their nation.

You really just want to believe what you want to believe.

No different than yourself or Clay Death in that regard. The way I see it, at least Sara Errani was (wo)man enough to not deny she had worked with him and subsequently report she no longer was. Ferrer's outright denial kinda reeks of hiding the truth. I'm quite sure that if Del Moral hadn't been disgraced over the Armstrong scandal Ferrer would have no problem saying he worked with him. But he's just playing it safe by denying everything. I prefer Errani's honesty personally.

I'm not denying it's possible, I'm simply looking at what's out there to be known. It's interesting that when Errani says she worked with the guy and is distancing herself, you find that honest. When Ferrer says he didn't work with the guy, he's lying. You only find one a more reliable narrator because they say want you want to hear.

Either way they're both tainted anyway the way I see it so it doesn't matter who's telling the truth really. Also, I really don't see why a site is more trustworthy in your view just because it writes articles in Spanish over English. If anything given the way the Spanish like to brush things under the table, their version of the "truth" is likely to be much further from it. You need only look to their shambolic courts and the way they handled the Fuentes case to see how they operate by protecting their nation's sportspeople by means of destroying evidence the world should be informed about (the infamous blood bags). All while trying to secure the Olympics in Madrid eventhough there's all this baggage attached to their image: a doping doctor who worked with the top football team in their country (Barcelona) and numerous tennis players past and present. Good luck to them with that.

And just regarding your last line above "You only find one a more reliable narrator because they say want you want to hear." Again, what's the difference here between me choosing to believe my article in English over yours in Spanish? The answer. None. Sure you put you're not denying it's possible after my reply to your first but I know you're still choosing to presume Ferrer is innocent just 'cos you like him. Nothing wrong with that. I don't mind him myself. Great fighter to the bitter end in matches all the time but I'm thinking actually there's a higher likelihood of guilt given what information is available. And don't assume I think Errani is any better for how she handled things. I still think she was using a doping doctor for a reason too.

 

[Moxie]

Yeah I saw that on a blog site but what's he gonna say, he's my best friend and I hang out with him every day. He's a funny guy and we like to just make jokes and dope around (pun intended). Personally I don't believe Ferrer sorry. No need to translate it for me as I wouldn't believe him anyway. The fact that he lives in the same city and Del Moral helped Barcelona and Valencia dope their way to success is all too much a coincidence for my liking. As for Errani saying she worked with him but not any more. Well, again what's she going to say but it doesn't look good for her. Especially with the other article I posted a few pages back claiming 220,000 people in Italy use PEDs. A laughable stat for their nation.

You really just want to believe what you want to believe.

No different than yourself or Clay Death in that regard. The way I see it, at least Sara Errani was (wo)man enough to not deny she had worked with him and subsequently report she no longer was. Ferrer's outright denial kinda reeks of hiding the truth. I'm quite sure that if Del Moral hadn't been disgraced over the Armstrong scandal Ferrer would have no problem saying he worked with him. But he's just playing it safe by denying everything. I prefer Errani's honesty personally.

I'm not denying it's possible, I'm simply looking at what's out there to be known. It's interesting that when Errani says she worked with the guy and is distancing herself, you find that honest. When Ferrer says he didn't work with the guy, he's lying. You only find one a more reliable narrator because they say want you want to hear.

Either way they're both tainted anyway the way I see it so it doesn't matter who's telling the truth really. Also, I really don't see why a site is more trustworthy in your view just because it writes articles in Spanish over English. If anything given the way the Spanish like to brush things under the table, their version of the "truth" is likely to be much further from it. You need only look to their shambolic courts and the way they handled the Fuentes case to see how they operate by protecting their nation's sportspeople by means of destroying evidence the world should be informed about (the infamous blood bags). All while trying to secure the Olympics in Madrid eventhough there's all this baggage attached to their image: a doping doctor who worked with the top football team in their country (Barcelona) and numerous tennis players past and present. Good luck to them with that.

And just one your last line above "You only find one a more reliable narrator because they say want you want to hear." Again, what's the difference here between me choosing to believe my article in English over yours in Spanish? The answer. None.

I'm not saying my source is more reliable, I'm only saying it's a reasonable source with a refutation. When you google David Ferrer & Luis Garcia del Moral, you get a bunch of links to "tennishasasteroidproblem.com," which is a biased blog, some forums, and The Australian article. There are a few other creditable news organizations that picked it up, but they're repeating the same stuff. The Australian has a follow-up writes about Ferrer's denial that he knows the guy, so there you have the same in English. The article says that Ferrer trains at Tennis Val, which would make sense, as he lives in Valencia, (he's from a smaller town near there,) and Garcia del Moral "had an association" with the tennis academy. You still have to make a leap to say that, ipso facto, therefore Ferrer dopes. I agree that the Fuentes case was handled execrably, but I believe too many gaps in information are filled in by insinuation and association. I'm only saying that we should look at the evidence that is out there. I know you believe that there is too much cover-up and too little testing. I'm not trying to have my head in the sand, but I'm trying to reserve judgement where the other option is jumping to a conclusion that could be damaging to a player's reputation.

Believing Errani and not believing Ferrer has nothing to do with reading it in Spanish or English, as I have provided a link in English. The point is that you find Errani "reasonably" creditable because she said what you want to hear, and you don't find Ferrer creditable, because he denies association. That's not a question of what you read, but of what you are pre-disposed to believe. I'm saying I'm going to read what's out there, and reserve judgement until we know more.

We will never have a great meeting of the minds on this, Front, but we do agree that tennis has to take testing seriously, and do more to more to make the whole process less-opaque. And also more consistent, in terms of response, I'm sure you'd say.

 

[Front242]

That's fair enough, Moxie. All I'll say though is the fact that sites have said Ferrer and others worked with Del Moral surely has to have some credibility to it given Errani has admitted she was. I'd like to hear from the others apparently associated with him, past and present to gauge a better picture.

 

[ClayDeath]

any moron can go buy a bike and take his fitness as high as he needs to take it. he can also do running drills and he can hit the gym.


to conclude that ferru gets his consistency from doping is ridiculous. the man is brutally consistent and rock solid off both wings. he also fights for every point like he has not eaten for a month. that is just hunger and will being summoned.

his return of serve is also among the best. no way in hell can you buy that return from doping.

why the hell would he risk his multi million dollar endorsement deals by experimenting with doping?


here is what I am sensing: you are just bitter at the success of some of these players.

you have zero proof and zero evidence.

also I have tried to explain to you that doping can't help you beat better, more gifted players in tennis day in and day out.

 

[Moxie]

That's fair enough, Moxie. All I'll say though is the fact that sites have said Ferrer and others worked with Del Moral surely has to have some credibility to it given Errani has admitted she was. I'd like to hear from the others apparently associated with him, past and present to gauge a better picture.

Thanks, Front. And I'd only ask you to judge the credibility of those sites when you make your assessment. Errani has only said that she trained at that academy, worked with that doctor, and has distanced herself from him. Does that mean that she doped? No. What if I went to a regular GP for my allergies, and he ended up getting done for handing out painkiller prescriptions illegally? Does that imply that I'm abusing or even using painkillers, just because my doctor was a felon? When all I ever wanted was an allergy medicine? I'm just saying, that it's possible that some athletes train at a facility, and get seen for regular niggles, and if they don't do the "nudge nudge, wink wink," I doubt the dirty doctor is shoving it down their gullets. Maybe when Errani said she never did PEDs and she was distancing herself, that is exactly what she meant. And maybe when Ferrer said he trained there, but never associated with that doctor, that is also exactly what he meant. Now, you can doubt that, personally, but you can't state more than that, emphatically. And to say more than that is to slander individual players.

We'll know more over time. Until then, I think it's ok to worry about the state of doping, generally, but not fair to infer too much on individual players without proper evidence. It IS slander.

 

[tented]

That's fair enough, Moxie. All I'll say though is the fact that sites have said Ferrer and others worked with Del Moral surely has to have some credibility to it given Errani has admitted she was. I'd like to hear from the others apparently associated with him, past and present to gauge a better picture.

Exchange a few words, and you get: "The fact that sites have said the lunar landing never happened surely has to have some credibility to it ..."

Don't fall into the "I read it on the Internet, so it must be true" trap. It's the 21st century equivalent of "I saw it on TV, so it must be true."

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Anyone wants to discuss doping as a general concept? I mean, putting aside who done what, just looking at the idea itself...Like , what is doping? Is it only things one puts in his body or any other advantage he can get elsewhere?

Say I was playing 50 years ago but I used today's racket and string technology somehow...would that be doping, or cheating, or are they the same? In sports, every single thing has improved from 50 years ago to provide athletes help to reach their ultimate potential...Shoes are better, clothing is better, rackets, balls, courts...all better. Even our training machines and systems and our diet has vastly improved...all to make us better athletes. So, if the idea is to improve every aspect of our development as an athlete to reach our peak, and we find that certain medication helps us get there, is it really too different from improving everything else? Is it a valid justification? I mean, if I went back in time and used my Wilson racket with my luxilon strings, I would probably be banned from the sport, but now that everyone is using similar equipment, it is OK? So it is not about WHAT is being used, more about WHO is using it? Will it be the same with doping , that the problem is only some are using it, but if everyone used it, it would be just fine?
The question is, if everything else has vastly improved to help a player, can doping be looked as the last step for a player to reach his ultimate peak?

Just talking here...

 

[DarthFed]

Anyone wants to discuss doping as a general concept? I mean, putting aside who done what, just looking at the idea itself...Like , what is doping? Is it only things one puts in his body or any other advantage he can get elsewhere?

Say I was playing 50 years ago but I used today's racket and string technology somehow...would that be doping, or cheating, or are they the same? In sports, every single thing has improved from 50 years ago to provide athletes help to reach their ultimate potential...Shoes are better, clothing is better, rackets, balls, courts...all better. Even our training machines and systems and our diet has vastly improved...all to make us better athletes. So, if the idea is to improve every aspect of our development as an athlete to reach our peak, and we find that certain medication helps us get there, is it really too different from improving everything else? Is it a valid justification? I mean, if I went back in time and used my Wilson racket with my luxilon strings, I would probably be banned from the sport, but now that everyone is using similar equipment, it is OK? So it is not about WHAT is being used, more about WHO is using it? Will it be the same with doping , that the problem is only some are using it, but if everyone used it, it would be just fine?
The question is, if everything else has vastly improved to help a player, can doping be looked as the last step for a player to reach his ultimate peak?

Just talking here...

I think we are quickly heading to the time when doping will be allowed in sports. But there is one huge fundamental difference between doping and the other things you listed and that is health. Steroids and even other forms of doping can be detrimental to long-term health and it also has side effects.

So the problem with doping in sports right now is that you have those willing to cheat and accept the possible health risks and that puts the others in a bind; either I fall behind the curb and am at a huge disadvantage or I dope and risk getting caught and possibly damage my health.

The second that steroids and other methods of doping are PROVED to be 100% healthy and safe then I see no problem with allowing it. Without that guarantee they absolutely should be illegal.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

I hear you about the health difference Darth, but have all the improvements I have mentioned made the sport healthier for tennis players? Do we have more or less injuries than before? Has the average age of retirement due to injuries have gone up or gone down? I really don't know since I do not have the numbers.
What if ATP or other sport bodies have players sign waivers that stated they are not responsible for players having health issues dues to doping, and that they are allowed to do it but they would be responsible for the health repercussions themselves? Do you think people would sign it and just do it?

 

[Front242]

also I have tried to explain to you that doping can't help you beat better, more gifted players in tennis day in and day out.

Yes you have and I'm not buying it. All things being equal top players should never be beaten day in day out and there will always be upsets but as has been discussed just as much as you talking about morons jumping on bikes, if a handful of players are equal in terms of skill and fitness then the ones who dope do, despite what you may think, have a significant edge over those who don't.

 

[August]

Doping definitely helps in tennis, especially in long matches. Yeah, it doesn't improve your skills and tennis IQ. But the difference in skills between guys on the top of the game is small. You can see players getting exhausted in long matches and of course PEDs would help players not to get exhausted. Also, you can see players playing badly after a long match, PEDs would also help in recovery. And PEDs don't only improve one's stamina, you can get more strength, helping you to hit winners.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

In Tennis, the punishment for first offense for testing positive is
2 years suspension.

In baseball, it is 50 games suspension. Consider a baseball
season is 162 games long not counting the play off games, it
works out to the equivalent of about 3 months ban. That is
just a slap in the wrist.

In addition, Tennis player's shelf life is about 10-15 years,
whereas Baseball player's shelf life is much longer. Considering
this 50 games suspension is not even slap in wrist.