Biogenesis / Troicki / Cilic / Doping in Tennis

[ClayDeath]

no amount of doping in the world can buy you the skills needed to win in a sport like tennis day in and day out.

you need an incredible level of natural athletic ability which doping cant buy you.


you need major testicular fortitude which doping wont net you. don't you think that berdych, almagro, and Anderson would have purchased testicular fortitude by now if it could be bought.

you need an unbelievable level of skills which simply cant be had from doping in our sport.

you need relentless will which only a handful players can be said to have. and you need endless hunger and drive. these cant be bought with doping.


as for endurance, how many players out of the top 200 can play a 6 hour match? only 2-3 at best. nadal, nole, and murray.

and obviously roger in his prime.

any fool can go earn his endurance if he wants it bad enough. all you need is a bike or a willingness to go run a few miles a day. borg often ran 10 miles a day. muster was known to go on runs of around 20 miles on a bad knee. and they accused him of doping too by the way. he just went out and earned his endurance.

you don't need major level of lean muscle tissue which means that you dont need to look like the terminator.


this whole issue of doping in tennis is overblown. press is having a field day with it because it needs a story to sell. they will jump on anything.

handful of players experimented with it but they are no better off. only worse off since they may have tried to rely on it.

you just cant win in tennis by doping. this is not an endurance sport anyway. and it sure as hell is not a sport where you have to look like and feel like a bodybuilder.


you either have the skills and the natural athletic ability or you do not.

 

[Front242]

Seeing as we've no clear idea of who is actually doping and who isn't none of this of this is really easy to answer or weigh up. I'd hazard a guess there are a lot more players doping than you think however. Or if they're not currently they have in the past and sadly due to the pathetic level of testing the only way we'll find out big names is if anything comes of Biogenesis, Fuentes' blood bags, Del Moral or any leaks from doctors who have treated top players (a few are listed as clients of doping doctors) and fancy an early retirement to Bora Bora Island with a truckload of cash. Won't be holding my breath on any of these happening anytime soon.

 

[ClayDeath]

who really gives a damn if they are doping in tennis. it is pretty damn clear to me that you cant win in tennis by doping.

so let them dope. low level players don't exactly drive the sport anyway. also soon enough the next generation of drugs wont be detectable at all. drugs don't buy you a tennis game.


and if it is about nadal, andy murray, nole, and roger then the fools among the masses are just bitter about something. those 4 are head and shoulders above the rest for obvious reasons and not for doping.

you are talking about true all time greats and not some clowns who will be forgotten the second they retire.

 

[Front242]

Look, we've been shying away from names in this post but I'll mention one who has already been mentioned: David Ferrer. He's listed as a client of a doctor (Dr. Luis Garcia Del Moral) who has doped athletes before. So there you go, very much a top name (world number 3 and getting fitter and fitter with age). So don't assume top players are all clean. You can keep telling yourself and the board here as many times as you like that top players don't dope but then why do players such as Ferrer have links to doping doctors.

 

[ClayDeath]

a few years back a 40 year old man won a marathon at the Olympics.


tommy haas is 35 and about to get into top 10 by because of his great natural ability, his skills, his hunger and drive, and his constant attention to fitness.


10 players 30 or over have won titles this year so far.


bryan brothers are nearing 40 and they dominate the world in doubles.

average age of a touring pro in the top 100 is nearly 27 or even higher. the sport is forcing them to be a little more fit as they age. they are simply having to work harder today than at anytime in the past.


nester is 100 years old and still capable of world class doubles.


these players realize something the fools among the masses do not. you need a little better fitness today than yesterday. the runaway speed of the game requires better fitness and conditioning. they are all working a lot harder than they used in the old days.


but it is still not an endurance sport.

 

[Front242]

a few years back a 40 year old man won a marathon at the Olympics.


tommy haas is 35 and about to get into top 10 by because of his great natural ability, his skills, his hunger and drive, and his constant attention to fitness.


10 players 30 or over have won titles this year so far.


bryan brothers are nearing 40 and they dominate the world in doubles.

average age of a touring pro in the top 100 is nearly 27 or even higher. the sport is forcing them to be a little more fit as they age. they are simply having to work harder today than at anytime in the past.


nester is 100 years old and still capable of world class doubles.


these players realize something the fools among the masses do not. you need a little better fitness today than yesterday. the runaway speed of the game requires better fitness and conditioning.


but it is still not an endurance sport.

I've mentioned this before and it's obvious anyway. Doubles does not require anywhere near the same level of fitness as singles since you don't spend anywhere near the amount of time sprinting along the baseline as in singles. Why else was Navratilova still doing well at 50 and the Bryans as you mentioned and a whole pile of other active older players, Zimonjic, Paes, etc. Been through the older players winning too. Serve counts for a lot. Karlovic is one of the 10 over 30. He could be playing and winning with that serve till he's 50 seeing as he really doesn't have much more to his game other than volleying skills. Of course players are fit but you've ignored the fact that as I said Ferrer is a top player and has links to a doping doctor so all the talk of doubles players who don't need the same level of fitness for their game anyway still has completely avoided the obvious issue you seem intent on ignoring: Ferrer who is world number 3 has worked with a known doping doctor. So you can keep telling everyone about the amazing stamina needed, but ever wonder where it came from? Yeah he trains very hard but then why does he need a doping doctor?

 

[ClayDeath]

if it was that easy then they all would be doping and all would be ranked #3 in the world.

what does he have that doping gives him?

any idiot can go out and earn the fitness on the road. either by cycling or by running or both.

so why would he risk his multi million dollar deals by doping?


higher level of fitness and conditioning is needed today but it still doesn't buy you big titles.



did you forget that even blake and gonzo were once in the top 5? it means nothing. it just means that they got lucky. were they really top 5 players?


at least in 11 of blake`s title wins he never had to face anybody ranked higher than top 30.

 

[ClayDeath]

Doping: Shocked Troicki explained what happened


Viktor posts his view to try to shed some lights on his ban. Actually it really seems it was a misunderstanding!
Viktor is fighting back trying to restore his image after the 18th ban suffered from failing to provide a blood test in Monte Carlo.

According to the Serb it’s a big misunderstanding as it was the doctor to say to Viktor not to give the test that day. Troicki had the blood test the following morning and it was 100% clean.

Here the text.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Can you explain what actually happened?

It happened in Monte Carlo this spring. I was feeling awfully bad on April 15th before, during and after the 1st round match against Jarkko Nieminen. I was selected for urine and blood test after the match and went to the doping control station after showering and stretching. I gave the urine samples and told the doctor I was feeling really bad and I believed that drawing blood would make me feel even worse. I always feel awful when I need to draw blood and that day I was scared I would end up in hospital.

The doctor in charge of the testing told me that I looked very pale and ill, and that I could skip the test if I wrote an explanation letter to ITF about it. She dictated the letter to me and let me go without giving blood. She was very helpful and understanding.


And what went wrong thereafter?

Now I am being charged for refusing to undergo a blood test without justification. This is a real nightmare. I was 100% sure everything was ok, just like my coach Jack Reader who was in the doping control station room with me during at least half of the procedure.


Did you eventually have a blood test when you felt better?

Yes, I had a blood test from the same doping control officer the next morning.


Did you get the urine and blood test results back, and if you did what did they show?

Both negative, totally clean.


How often have you been tested in an out of competition?

I was tested 5 times for blood and many more times for Urine.


Have you ever missed a test before?

No, I never missed a test before.


Have you consulted with the ATP medical team to back you up?

No I haven’t. The doping control officer doing the controls was a doctor herself. I asked her and she showed me all her diplomas. She checked me and told me I could skip the test and dictated me the explanation for it. After I left the doping control station I went straight to bed and slept all afternoon. I didn’t see any reason to worry so I didn’t look for any help.


What are your immediate thoughts, feelings?

I am destroyed and exhausted. The whole period I have been thinking only about this issue. And it is not over yet, so I can’t really describe it. I am not even angry with the doctor. I believe that maybe she was told by her organization that she made a big mistake letting me go she backed up and tried to save her job.

Have you spoken to other players?

Yes, I spoke to my doubles partner Seppi and other players tonight. They are as shocked as me and they think it is ridiculous. It could have happened to anyone of them.


Will you be appealing?

Yes for sure. I put my trust in the Court of Arbitration of Sports in Lausanne, I really hope they will look for the truth and find it, which is only one.


The doping rules are pretty strict but do you feel there should be consideration for such situations?

The doping rules are strict and they must remain strict. But this was a clear mistake from the on-site doping control officer who was also a doctor, and the person in charge to decide. She let me go and reassured me. In my opinion once she found out that she didn’t follow the procedures she turned her back on me.


Have you spoken to Novak and if so what has he said?

He said that he is sure it will end good because I am innocent, and that ATP should really back me up with this.


Is there anything else you would like to say?

I feel like I am being treated like a criminal and I have not committed anything at all. I have a fear of the needle and I always have troubles drawing blood. But I always did. I am clean and will always be clean throughout my career. I just had the wrong doctor who didn’t tell me at all that I was risking anything. She showed me a letter of the ITF saying she is in charge of the decisions and I trusted her completely. I wish I had recorded the discussion, there would have never been a case if I did.

I am 100% sure that the court of arbitration in Lausanne will consider my good faith and my total innocence. But now, this enormous sanction makes me speechless. It feels like the world that I help building day by day has let me down. It is the worst feeling you can imagine.


What are you going to do now?

I really don’t know. It is all fresh and I can’t really believe it yet. I am a fighter and I will try to fight, together with my team and my lawyers, but I am quite destroyed now. I hope this nightmare will come to a good end, and I really want to continue playing. I don’t deserve this.

 

[Front242]

if it was that easy then they all would be doping and all would be ranked #3 in the world.

what does he have that doping gives him?

any idiot can go out and earn the fitness on the road. either by cycling or by running or both.

so why would he risk his multi million dollar deals by doping?


higher level of fitness and conditioning is needed today but it still doesn't buy you big titles.



did you forget that even blake and gonzo were once in the top 5? it means nothing. it just means that they got lucky. were they really top 5 players?


at least in 11 of blake`s title wins he never had to face anybody ranked higher than top 30.

Gonzo was amazing at the peak of his powers at AO '07 and as a Nadal fan you'll likely remember that match without me posting highlights. He was even better against Haas with an amazing 3 UFEs in the whole match. Luck doesn't get you results or ranking and you should know that. Ferrer is a prime example. Sure, he mightn't be the epitome of brilliance to watch in terms of tennis finesse but consistency gets you to number 5. Just look at the WTA and all the slack the former world number ones who never won a slam get.

Blake had crazy firepower and still does but he was so much more consistent back in his prime and frequently blew Nadal off the court as I'm sure you remember. Any guy who could overpower opponents frequently like this was bound to reach top 5. Look at 1:55 onwards and see Nadal wave his hands in the air going WTF do I do here? And to answer your question about Ferrer and what does he have that doping gives him? huh? Is that a trick question? Seeing as stamina is by far his biggest asset and what we've been discussing then I wonder what it could possibly be that doping could benefit here? See how many tournaments he plays week in week out at his age and rarely ever looks tired. First time I saw him tired in years was for a few months ago and he strained his leg and took a whopping 2 weeks off. And then right back into action.

Anyway, here's some Blake FHs for you and don't forget to especially check out 1:55 onwards.

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=R-eltQDerPc[/video]

 

[Moxie]

a few years back a 40 year old man won a marathon at the Olympics.


tommy haas is 35 and about to get into top 10 by because of his great natural ability, his skills, his hunger and drive, and his constant attention to fitness.


10 players 30 or over have won titles this year so far.


bryan brothers are nearing 40 and they dominate the world in doubles.

average age of a touring pro in the top 100 is nearly 27 or even higher. the sport is forcing them to be a little more fit as they age. they are simply having to work harder today than at anytime in the past.


nester is 100 years old and still capable of world class doubles.


these players realize something the fools among the masses do not. you need a little better fitness today than yesterday. the runaway speed of the game requires better fitness and conditioning.


but it is still not an endurance sport.

I've mentioned this before and it's obvious anyway. Doubles does not require anywhere near the same level of fitness as singles since you don't spend anywhere near the amount of time sprinting along the baseline as in singles. Why else was Navratilova still doing well at 50 and the Bryans as you mentioned and a whole pile of other active older players, Zimonjic, Paes, etc. Been through the older players winning too. Serve counts for a lot. Karlovic is one of the 10 over 30. He could be playing and winning with that serve till he's 50 seeing as he really doesn't have much more to his game other than volleying skills. Of course players are fit but you've ignored the fact that as I said Ferrer is a top player and has links to a doping doctor so all the talk of doubles players who don't need the same level of fitness for their game anyway still has completely avoided the obvious issue you seem intent on ignoring: Ferrer who is world number 3 has worked with a known doping doctor. So you can keep telling everyone about the amazing stamina needed, but ever wonder where it came from? Yeah he trains very hard but then why does he need a doping doctor?

I've been looking in English and Spanish media for a reliable link between Ferrer and Fuentes, or any other doping doctor and find nothing. (Even amongst the crack-pot ones.) If you have one, please provide. If you can't, than please stop implying that he dopes.

 

[ClayDeath]

who is blake again?


so he beat a teenager on hard courts. who did not demolish nadal on the hard courts a few years ago? it was nadal`s worst surface and it still is. you will note that nadal still managed to beat 2 of the greatest hard court players ever lived: he beat roger and nadal to capture 2 hard court slams.

who the hell is blake again?

do you know how many games blake woud win against nadal at RG? and yes, contrary to popular belief among the fools in the masses, they do play tennis on the clay courts and lots of it. more tennis and more varied tennis is played on the red clay than any other surface.




you are still hung up on stamina old sport.


ferru earns his stamina by going out and running each and every single day. and he even runs in between his matches at a tournament.

also are you even watching the same sport. ferru has always been fairly consistent off the ground. only now that the game is faster, he has had to work a little harder.





also you equate ferru`s game with endurance alone. if it was that easy then any clown could go out and earn that fitness level.

and they would all be ranked #3 in the world.

ferru is a great athlete and he has major tennis skills. he is rock solid off both wings. can you buy that with doping?

his return of serve is among the best. will doping net you such a return of serve?

his will to fight is nearly 2nd to none. he fights to the death for every point. the man is earning every single point out there.



but you can call it doping if you wish.

 

[Front242]

There you go.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/tennis/a-disgraced-doctor-had-links-to-past-and-present-players/story-fnbe6xeb-1226495707956

 

[GameSetAndMath]

also soon enough the next generation of drugs wont be detectable at all.

I am afraid, it is not that simple. In the next generation, only
the level of sophistication will improve.

It will be a constant war between PED makers and Anti-Doping
Agencies. The science and technology, will improve not just
the PED makers, it will also improve the drug detection schemes.
It will be a continuous war with no end.

Good time to ask your kids to study Chemistry/Biology/Pharmacy.

 

[Front242]

who is blake again?


so he beat a teenager on hard courts. who did not demolish nadal on the hard courts a few years ago? it was nadal`s worst surface and it still is. you will note that nadal still managed to beat 2 of the greatest hard court players ever lived: he beat roger and nadal to capture 2 hard court slams.

who the hell is blake again?

do you know how many games blake woud win against nadal at RG? and yes, contrary to popular belief among the fools in the masses, they do play tennis on the clay courts and lots of it. more tennis and more varied tennis is played on the red clay than any other surface.

Who cares how Blake would fare on clay against Nadal. You get to world number 5 by consistency. If he was consistently better on hardcourts than clay then so what? Fact is he still reached world number 5.

 

[ClayDeath]

negative. he won a few tiny events.

as I have said, in at least 11 of his title wins, he never had to face a player ranked higher than #30.

in short, he won nothing.


this is the age of all time greats mate.


he is a nobody when put in front of guys like nole, nadal, roger, and andy murray.


but you keep hanging your hat on his 1-2 wins over nadal in diapers.

but if that is his claim to fame then we will leave it like it is.

 

[Front242]

negative. he won a few tiny events.

as I have said, in at least 11 of his title wins, he never had to face a player ranked higher than #30.

in short, he won nothing.


this is the age of all time greats mate.


he is a nobody when put in front of guys like nole, nadal, roger, and andy murray.


but you keep hanging your hat on his 1-2 wins over nadal in diapers.

but if that is his claim to fame then we will leave it like it is.

But of course when they all hang up their racquets you'll happy to keep Nadal in diapers wins over Fed no doubt? Can't have it both ways. Rafa was pretty damn good in Miami 2004 so why did he suddenly get beaten 3 straight times after that by Blake? Maybe because Blake was actually very good at the time. Nothing to do with diapers obviously since he beat Fed in his prime routinely in Miami 2004. He lost against Blake because big flat hitters have always troubled him and if you checked out the highlights in the posts above you'd see that no one could contend with some of the monster Fhs Blake hit back then.

http://www.stevegtennis.com/head-to-head/men/James_Blake/Rafael_Nadal/

Sure he's a nobody compared to the players you named above these days, but back then he was a force to be reckoned with and last I read no one was discussing what titles he won or who he beat to win them. I was debating the fact that you said he was lucky to get to world number 5. How exactly? Winning tournaments or getting to latter stages in top tournaments is the only way for you to gain enough points to achieve world number 5. So cut the guy some slack and same with Gonzo. He got the ranking by way of winning titles and going deep in the big events. How many slams has Ferrer won and would you consider world number 3 a nobody? Again, he's got to that ranking by consistently making semis at slams, finals in clay events, going deep in other tournaments and of course winning some like Paris 2012 along the way.

 

[Moxie]

There you go.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/tennis/a-disgraced-doctor-had-links-to-past-and-present-players/story-fnbe6xeb-1226495707956

Yes, but Ferrer denies any association with Garcia del Moral, and says he wouldn't even know him if he walked into the room. This article from puntodebreak.com directly addresses the accusation in The Australian that you cite. Sorry but it's in Spanish. You'll have to trust me on it for now, but I will translate it for you tomorrow, either on my blog or in a PM. Puntodebreak.com is a site that we've vetted, and link to on our front page, btw. Just because Ferrer is based in Valencia, doesn't mean that he works with the discredited doctor. And we do know that the internet/press is more than willing to make facile associations.

 

[ClayDeath]

give it up mate. it was and still is nadal`s worst surface.


did blake ever make it past the first round at RG?


who the hell is blake again?


berdych used to beat nadal on hard courts too. nadal has been owning him on ALL surfaces for 5 years now and while being injured too.


nadal is as superior to blake in every possible way as the living are to the dead. when you talk about guys like roger and nadal, you are talking about the greatest players as well as the finest athletes to ever play our sport.





anyway lets get back on topic which is doping in tennis.

 

[ClayDeath]

ok folks now that we are back on topic:


can doping help you beat better/more gifted athletes in tennis on consistent basis?

yes or no?

 

[Moxie]

ok folks now that we are back on topic:
can doping help you beat better/more gifted athletes in tennis on consistent basis?
yes or no?

I don't believe that's the topic, just because it's your point. I believe the topic is doping in sports, and tennis specifically; what we know, what we don't, and what needs to be done. Also, what's rumor and what's reality. I believe you've made the point that doping won't get you past the best players, and I've made similar points about doping not substituting for talent and tennis IQ. However, it only goes so far to bang on that, and then the issue has to be addressed, which we're doing here.

Of the three topics specifically to address, it seems that the Biogenesis scandal is very specific to baseball, and nothing about tennis has come out; Troicki does seem a bit hard-done by, though avoiding a doping test is a no-no; and Cilic: he took something, whether innocently or not, that got him a bad test. He's co-operating with the ITF, but has the ITF not actually made a statement about it, at all? That would seem bad. I'm still not sure I buy the notion of a "silent ban," since it's not so silent, but I would think it's time for the ITF to come out with a statement of some kind, vis-a-vis Troicki and Cilic.