tented
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RE: NADAL--No Silent Bans, Please. Name And Shame.
Sounds like an excellent candidate for the Darwin Awards.
Front242 said:
Sounds like an excellent candidate for the Darwin Awards.
Biogenesis / Troicki / Cilic / Doping in Tennis
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Front242
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RE: NADAL--No Silent Bans, Please. Name And Shame.
He had a HUGE chest and always wore (probably still does, he's not dead yet afaik lol) this white World Gym vest with his chest just hanging out it of lol. Probably scared away a lot of the females in the gym. In fact, said gym has since closed ROFL! :laydownlaughing
He told me he used to inject insulin right into his chest within 30 mins of vigorous workouts as it increased the pump attained from what bodybuilders call the anabolic window, around anything up to 30 mins following intensive weight lifting sessions. Another guy in a different gym I used go to was around 45 or so and used to eat a whole litre tub of vanilla ice cream right after training for the insulin spike. Nutter!
tented said:
He had a HUGE chest and always wore (probably still does, he's not dead yet afaik lol) this white World Gym vest with his chest just hanging out it of lol. Probably scared away a lot of the females in the gym. In fact, said gym has since closed ROFL! :laydownlaughing
He told me he used to inject insulin right into his chest within 30 mins of vigorous workouts as it increased the pump attained from what bodybuilders call the anabolic window, around anything up to 30 mins following intensive weight lifting sessions. Another guy in a different gym I used go to was around 45 or so and used to eat a whole litre tub of vanilla ice cream right after training for the insulin spike. Nutter!
tented
Administrator
RE: NADAL--No Silent Bans, Please. Name And Shame.
Why would anyone fail a drug test using one of their products, if the whole idea is their products won't make you fail a drug test? :dodgy:
Moxie629 said:
Why would anyone fail a drug test using one of their products, if the whole idea is their products won't make you fail a drug test? :dodgy:
Front242
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RE: NADAL--No Silent Bans, Please. Name And Shame.
Exactly
That's why this is the oldest and most ridiculous excuse in the book. Even worse than Contador's contaminated steak! If the ITF let him off that easily it's just allowing anyone to cheat, pretty much as they have up to now. They need to do more research into why he had higher than normal glucose levels. Again, I'm no scientist but have read up on this stuff quite a bit and was able to find scientific links to back it up in mere minutes. They need to wise up.
tented said:
Exactly
That's why this is the oldest and most ridiculous excuse in the book. Even worse than Contador's contaminated steak! If the ITF let him off that easily it's just allowing anyone to cheat, pretty much as they have up to now. They need to do more research into why he had higher than normal glucose levels. Again, I'm no scientist but have read up on this stuff quite a bit and was able to find scientific links to back it up in mere minutes. They need to wise up.
ClayDeath
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tented
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RE: NADAL--No Silent Bans, Please. Name And Shame.
It's odd, then, because that's the equivalent of, "We'll pay you $1M if our soy milk aggravates your lactose intolerance."
Moxie629 said:
It's odd, then, because that's the equivalent of, "We'll pay you $1M if our soy milk aggravates your lactose intolerance."
Johnsteinbeck
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Front242 said:
you know, i'm starting to think that your suspicions about doping have less to do with player preferences and much more with you spending a lot of time with a whole bunch of crazy doping nutjobs
Johnsteinbeck
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RE: NADAL--No Silent Bans, Please. Name And Shame.
and supplements are complicated stuff as well. the things that are in a regular sports drink already have incredible names. they'll need rely on suppliers to provide the right materials and ingredients. and then once it's in your body, there'll be chemical reactions as well. or, worst case, just plain sabotage - disgruntled employee spikes the stuff.
so even with the cleanest stuff, there always is a margin of error. so i reckon the 1 million $ guarantee is on the one hand, an indication on their side to show their confidence about the product, and on the other hand, it's like an insurance against part of the damages you'd suffer if something does go wrong (although for a top player, 1 million wouldn't even come close).
on the other hand though: if a player does test positive - good luck with proving that it was due to the supplement. if i were a player using such a product, i'd never finish a whole package of something, always keep a little rest, and whenever i get tested, seal the samples of whatever i'd been taking the days and weeks before, and then wait for the results. so if you do test positive, you got something to analyze.
actually, that might be a "good" idea for athletes anyway, at least with their supplements (given that Contador blamed the meat, i guess they'd also have to freeze samples of each meal they have :nono ). ridiculous, i know, but also a reminder of what lengths you'd have to go to, to be 100% safe.
and even then, of course, you can't be sure that the one pill you kept as a sample is 100% the same as the ones you were taking.
because drug testing is much more complicated than lactose intolerance. we had the link for the banned substances somewhere in the thread - needless to say, it's loooong. then you got all the stuff that triggers test fails because they're potentially cover-ups.tented said:
and supplements are complicated stuff as well. the things that are in a regular sports drink already have incredible names. they'll need rely on suppliers to provide the right materials and ingredients. and then once it's in your body, there'll be chemical reactions as well. or, worst case, just plain sabotage - disgruntled employee spikes the stuff.
so even with the cleanest stuff, there always is a margin of error. so i reckon the 1 million $ guarantee is on the one hand, an indication on their side to show their confidence about the product, and on the other hand, it's like an insurance against part of the damages you'd suffer if something does go wrong (although for a top player, 1 million wouldn't even come close).
on the other hand though: if a player does test positive - good luck with proving that it was due to the supplement. if i were a player using such a product, i'd never finish a whole package of something, always keep a little rest, and whenever i get tested, seal the samples of whatever i'd been taking the days and weeks before, and then wait for the results. so if you do test positive, you got something to analyze.
actually, that might be a "good" idea for athletes anyway, at least with their supplements (given that Contador blamed the meat, i guess they'd also have to freeze samples of each meal they have :nono ). ridiculous, i know, but also a reminder of what lengths you'd have to go to, to be 100% safe.
and even then, of course, you can't be sure that the one pill you kept as a sample is 100% the same as the ones you were taking.
DarthFed
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Mastoor said:I don't know if anyone posted this but Troicki's fiancee left Viktor. Here is them together coming to IW players party earlier this year
http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Suncica+Travica
Did she just leave him after this news broke out? If so, sounds like she was worried the money train might be out of commission for 18 months
Front242
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Mastoor said:I don't know if anyone posted this but Troicki's fiancee left Viktor. Here is them together coming to IW players party earlier this year
http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Suncica+Travica
Always wondered what a stunner like her was doing with a guy who looks like a convict anyway personally so I'm not surprised.
Parents buy 'roids for their teens?
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-57595838/report-biogenesis-clinic-provided-peds-to-teens/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-57595838/report-biogenesis-clinic-provided-peds-to-teens/
ClayDeath
Multiple Major Winner
Front242 said:Mastoor said:I don't know if anyone posted this but Troicki's fiancee left Viktor. Here is them together coming to IW players party earlier this year
http://www.zimbio.com/photos/Suncica+Travica
Always wondered what a stunner like her was doing with a guy who looks like a convict anyway personally so I'm not surprised.
holy smokes. she is bloody well unbelievable.
she must be partially blind.
britbox
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tented
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Wertheim recently wrote about doping. It's somewhat lengthy, but in the middle of a larger piece, so I'll paste it here:
There was a lot of chatter about doping this week, given the news involving ATP players Viktor Troicki and Marin Cilic. I'm not sure where to begin and I'm not sure we'll accomplish much in one session, but I'll try to summarize three main frequently asked questions.
1. Was Troicki treated unfairly?
For those who missed it, Troicki declined to provide a blood sample at the Monte Carlo Masters in April because he didn't feel well. After a hearing, he was issued an 18-month ban that he is appealing to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. You can read the independent tribunal's decision here. The gist: The tribunal didn't accept Troicki's argument that the doping control officer had assured him that he could skip the test without being sanctioned if he wrote a letter of explanation to the International Tennis Federation.
As I read the ruling, I felt alternately sympathetic toward Troicki and sympathetic toward the authorities. From the facts, it seems like there was some level of misunderstanding here. From the facts, an 18-month suspension seems brutally harsh. On the other hand, if you want a credible anti-doping program, you can't allow players to delay their testing and set their own schedules. It's a mystery why Troicki, in the era of iPhones, didn't somehow memorialize this exchange with the testing agent, which he had to know was potentially problematic.
2. What was up with Cilic reportedly failing a drug test and then lying about why he withdrew from Wimbledon?
Again, this anti-doping is messy business, filled with damned-either-way scenarios. After reportedly learning at Wimbledon that he had tested positive in April, Cilic allegedly accepted a provisional suspension, meaning he essentially sidelined himself until his matter was resolved. (The 24-year-old Croat attributed the failed test to an over-the-counter supplement, according to his former coach and reports in the Croatian media.)
The pros: In the case of exoneration, theoretically anyway, no one would have found out about his failed test. In the case of guilt/fault, he is already accruing time served. Also, it avoids the Wayne Odesnik situation, where a player is continuing to compete while he fights a charge.
The cons: You're forfeiting points and money you could have won. (If, say, Cilic is exonerated -- especially if there's potential negligence -- does he not seek to claim any of the prize money he left on the table?) Also, you are necessarily lying about your absence and the ITF is complicit in this ruse. Here's a transcript of Cilic's Wimbledon news conference after he withdrew from his second-round match because of what he said was a knee injury. We now know that this appears to be fraudulent.
3. Shouldn't we now be skeptical of every player's absence?
Yes and no. An absence could well be a provisional suspension. But I don't think that while Player X is off allegedly nursing an injury, he or she is really serving a doping suspension that has been suppressed. This is where I disembark the Conspiracy Train.
For a positive test to get buried, here's who would have to be complicit: the player, the ITF, the testing lab, the player's national anti-doping agency and the World Anti-Doping Agency. This isn't 1997, when Andre Agassi and the ATP could be in cahoots. The notion of WADA's covering up a positive test -- i.e., risking complete loss of credibility -- to protect a tennis player is just not believable.
Can players beat tests? Absolutely. And the infrequency and various holes in tennis' system all but encourage it. But the notion of a player's testing positive and then quietly "disappearing" until a secret suspension is served? I don't see it. As one source -- with no agenda -- put it to me, "If anything, this is a system that sees cases that have less merit taken forward to satisfy political purposes."
There was a lot of chatter about doping this week, given the news involving ATP players Viktor Troicki and Marin Cilic. I'm not sure where to begin and I'm not sure we'll accomplish much in one session, but I'll try to summarize three main frequently asked questions.
1. Was Troicki treated unfairly?
For those who missed it, Troicki declined to provide a blood sample at the Monte Carlo Masters in April because he didn't feel well. After a hearing, he was issued an 18-month ban that he is appealing to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. You can read the independent tribunal's decision here. The gist: The tribunal didn't accept Troicki's argument that the doping control officer had assured him that he could skip the test without being sanctioned if he wrote a letter of explanation to the International Tennis Federation.
As I read the ruling, I felt alternately sympathetic toward Troicki and sympathetic toward the authorities. From the facts, it seems like there was some level of misunderstanding here. From the facts, an 18-month suspension seems brutally harsh. On the other hand, if you want a credible anti-doping program, you can't allow players to delay their testing and set their own schedules. It's a mystery why Troicki, in the era of iPhones, didn't somehow memorialize this exchange with the testing agent, which he had to know was potentially problematic.
2. What was up with Cilic reportedly failing a drug test and then lying about why he withdrew from Wimbledon?
Again, this anti-doping is messy business, filled with damned-either-way scenarios. After reportedly learning at Wimbledon that he had tested positive in April, Cilic allegedly accepted a provisional suspension, meaning he essentially sidelined himself until his matter was resolved. (The 24-year-old Croat attributed the failed test to an over-the-counter supplement, according to his former coach and reports in the Croatian media.)
The pros: In the case of exoneration, theoretically anyway, no one would have found out about his failed test. In the case of guilt/fault, he is already accruing time served. Also, it avoids the Wayne Odesnik situation, where a player is continuing to compete while he fights a charge.
The cons: You're forfeiting points and money you could have won. (If, say, Cilic is exonerated -- especially if there's potential negligence -- does he not seek to claim any of the prize money he left on the table?) Also, you are necessarily lying about your absence and the ITF is complicit in this ruse. Here's a transcript of Cilic's Wimbledon news conference after he withdrew from his second-round match because of what he said was a knee injury. We now know that this appears to be fraudulent.
3. Shouldn't we now be skeptical of every player's absence?
Yes and no. An absence could well be a provisional suspension. But I don't think that while Player X is off allegedly nursing an injury, he or she is really serving a doping suspension that has been suppressed. This is where I disembark the Conspiracy Train.
For a positive test to get buried, here's who would have to be complicit: the player, the ITF, the testing lab, the player's national anti-doping agency and the World Anti-Doping Agency. This isn't 1997, when Andre Agassi and the ATP could be in cahoots. The notion of WADA's covering up a positive test -- i.e., risking complete loss of credibility -- to protect a tennis player is just not believable.
Can players beat tests? Absolutely. And the infrequency and various holes in tennis' system all but encourage it. But the notion of a player's testing positive and then quietly "disappearing" until a secret suspension is served? I don't see it. As one source -- with no agenda -- put it to me, "If anything, this is a system that sees cases that have less merit taken forward to satisfy political purposes."
britbox
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tented
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britbox said:
I thought so, too. Wertheim is by far my favorite sports writer. He's more fair and objective than anyone else I'm familiar with, not to mention smart and intelligent.
I'd like to think the conspiracy theorists, in particular, will look at this differently, but people who believe in conspiracy theories tend to have a way to rationalize literally everything. The key factor they refuse to deal with reasonably is addressed so wonderfully by Wertheim. The very nature of a conspiracy theory means that many people are involved, and keep everything top secret. That's unrealistic. Information inevitably gets out, for various reasons, and by various methods. The widespread level of secrecy and cooperation needed to pull off a conspiracy theory is an untenable situation.
Does anyone know what substance Cilic actually tested positive for? Surely it wasn't glucose? Isn't glucose being bandied about by his team to explain the presence of the banned substance in question?
Ok, it's high glucose.
http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/08/bob-brett-cilic-did-test-positive-high-glucose/48597/#.Ufqe5tLrx50
http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/08/bob-brett-cilic-did-test-positive-high-glucose/48597/#.Ufqe5tLrx50
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