Biogenesis / Troicki / Cilic / Doping in Tennis

[huntingyou]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

translate to actual quantifiable data or else you are speculating as well. Tennis players are not cyclists; when you show me how Player A doping can give him an edge over Player B not doping then we have a case in my book.

I'll tell you what, take a player like Wawrinka, world class athlete with insane amount of talent and game. No amount of doping would allow him to have changed his H2H with Rafa.....PERIOD. That's my point all alone. Tennis is not a mindless sprint to 100 meters nor a purely endurance, speed and strength sport. Tennis is so complex, so delicate and exquisite in it's mechanics that Wawrinka could never escape the conundrum of Rafa's forehand and overall superiority.

Now you say; "well take Rafa vs Novak" very close players in talent and hardwork..........the edge doping would provide would be in the 5th set when there are no longer legs to run on. Something like the AO final in 2012. I can see the minuscule edge there but still, either player has to push the other to the very limit to then expose a natural physical limitation; BUT the ATP tour it's not made up of Rafa vs Nole 5th setters in GS finals....

Finally, why you keep insisting on how I don't make sense and then go around it and say you understand my point and somehow agree with my overall position? Do you want to debate me so bad that you have to nit pick everything I say?

 

[ClayDeath]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

endurance does NOT equal shot making in the clutch. it also does not equal decision making on the dead run. doping will not buy you nadal`s topspin forehand. there has been only one such forehand in the last 60,000 years of fully documented human history. what does that tell you?

it took me 5 years of blasting cement walls 2-3 hours a day before even hitting practice courts daily to develop my topspin forehand and my topspin backhand.

and I never missed a day. if it was raining then I simply went to an indoor racquet ball court.

 

[Front242]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

johnsteinbeck wrote:

thanks, and i'll bump the bump - because this is so close to hunting's point, yet makes so much more sense. the edge that you can get from doping in tennis might not be big enough to justify the risk. this is debatable. i happen to agree. but to deny any potential edge is ridiculous.

I realize you've said to deny any potential edge is ridiculous but there most definitely is an edge or else why would people dope. Also, up until recently we've had no confirmed cases because the doping controls are run by complete dopes. There's been no major risk of being caught as the testing is beyond a joke (5 blood tests for Troicki in 8 years!) and only now are we seeing them do something about things but still it's not enough. In terms of health risks these guys can afford the best doctors and for the most part know what they're doing. Sylvester Stallone has been taking HGH for years. You can bet he's got the best doctors money can buy as he's hardly gonna jeopardize his health just to look in shape for his acting career. Same with top athletes. They're definitely doing this to get a risk free edge. The heat in Melbourne in January is insane at times and any physical edge that can make you tolerate that climate better by getting more air into your lungs is a huge benefit.

Because of the ridiculously poor doping controls of the past we've no idea if they can even go back and do retroactive testing. That's a crying shame imo. Especially since top tennis players are listed as clients of known doping doctors.

PS: Something wrong with my reply/quote. hmmm.

 

[Front242]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Unconfirmed reports are circulating that Gael Monfils failed a blood test between the French Open and Halle and this is why he pulled out of Wimbledon citing "personal reasons". Again, unconfirmed but there you go. He has played recently so it's anyone's guess.

A French poster mentioned it here. Apparently announced on French radio station RMC Sports. He's also withdrawn from Washington with a biceps injury for the record.

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?p=17020113

 

[Kieran]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Unconfirmed reports are circulating that Gael Monfils failed a blood test between the French Open and Halle and this is why he pulled out of Wimbledon citing "personal reasons". Again, unconfirmed but there you go. He has played recently so it's anyone's guess.

A French poster mentioned it here. Apparently announced on French radio station RMC Sports.

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?p=17020113

"Gossips say player must have failed a drug test because he skipped a tournament. Oh wait, he played since then so only maybe is he on drugs..."

It's not really "anyone's guess", is it? Not unless they have a head full of tripe to start with. It's dragging guys names through the mud with feck all evidence...

 

[Front242]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Unconfirmed reports are circulating that Gael Monfils failed a blood test between the French Open and Halle and this is why he pulled out of Wimbledon citing "personal reasons". Again, unconfirmed but there you go. He has played recently so it's anyone's guess.

A French poster mentioned it here. Apparently announced on French radio station RMC Sports.

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?p=17020113

"Gossips say player must have failed a drug test because he skipped a tournament. Oh wait, he played since then so only maybe is he on drugs..."

It's not really "anyone's guess", is it? Not unless they have a head full of tripe to start with. It's dragging guys names through the mud with feck all evidence...

Did you happen to miss the part that a French radio station aired it? This is how it started re Cilic. On Croatian tv. Now it's on tennis.com, the world's biggest tennis news site. So don't ignore it so fast.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Now it's on tennis.com, the world's biggest tennis news site. So don't ignore it so fast.

Can't find it on tennis.com - you got a link?

 

[Front242]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Now it's on tennis.com, the world's biggest tennis news site. So don't ignore it so fast.

Can't find it on tennis.com - you got a link?

No. I meant regarding Cilic. That was aired on tv first in Croatia and soon afterwards a thread was on tennis.com. Regarding Monfils, a French poster said it was on French radio so if it's true it's only a matter of time before we hear more.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

No. I meant regarding Cilic. That was aired on tv first in Croatia and soon afterwards a thread was on tennis.com. Regarding Monfils, a French poster said it was on French radio so if it's true it's only a matter of time before we hear more.

And if it's not true?

 

[Front242]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

No. I meant regarding Cilic. That was aired on tv first in Croatia and soon afterwards a thread was on tennis.com. Regarding Monfils, a French poster said it was on French radio so if it's true it's only a matter of time before we hear more.

And if it's not true?

Really, since when do they falsely announce on tv or radio that a top sports player has failed a doping control blood test?

 

[Kieran]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Really, since when do they falsely announce on tv or radio that a top sports player has failed a doping control blood test?

Yeah, because the media is infallible when it comes to repeating gossip. Anyway, you didn't refer us to a tv or radio station. You linked us to another chat forum.

Just saying, if it isn't true, you repeated it here. It might be a good idea to link sources before you do that...

EDIT: and by posting a link, I don't mean to another chat site. That's hardly authoritative...

 

[Front242]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Really, since when do they falsely announce on tv or radio that a top sports player has failed a doping control blood test?

Yeah, because the media is infallible when it comes to repeating gossip. Anyway, you didn't refer us to a tv or radio station. You linked us to another chat forum.

Just saying, if it isn't true, you repeated it here. It might be a good idea to link sources before you do that...

EDIT: and by posting a link, I don't mean to another chat site. That's hardly authoritative...

Two things. Firstly, I said it was reported to be on a French radio station and unless they recorded it and uploaded it we've no link/proof and secondly as I said it's unconfirmed. It was unconfirmed when Cilic was reported to have failed first initially too but seeing as it was on tennis.com within a day who knows what will come of this.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

You might be wiser keeping schtum before you blacken a guys name using second and third hand uncorroborated sources. This is one of the important things to come out of this thread, if nothing else did...

 

[Front242]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

You might be wiser keeping schtum before you blacken a guys name using second and third hand uncorroborated sources. This is one of the important things to come out of this thread, if nothing else did...

Read back on this thread and check who posted about Cilic before it was on tennis.com. And of course once it was on tennis.com I presume that's more acceptable. All these leaks come from media, tv, radio. Usually with things like this there aren't too many mistakes involved. Thanks.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

It only takes for you to get one wrong, and in this case there's a difference: Monfils is still playing. So why don't you cite proper sources in future, in case you're wrong.

And you could be wrong...

 

[Front242]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

It only takes for you to get one wrong, and in this case there's a difference: Monfils is still playing. So why don't you cite proper sources in future, in case you're wrong.

And you could be wrong...

Cilic was still playing too and then the news was plastered all over the front of tennis.com. He failed a test in April. It was a silent ban only announced months later and still not confirmed by the ITF but being all over tennis.com is surely a good indication of something.

Also, how can I be wrong when it's got nothing to do with me. The point local news always break the stories. Croatian media leaked about Cilic on tv, a French poster heard something on French radio re Monfils. Those sort of announcements aren't usually just a passing comment for fun.

 

[Moxie]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

If no one objects, I'm going to merge the Cilic thread and the Troicki one into this one, which seems to be getting all the traffic. That way you can go back to earlier posts without jumping around threads.

 

[Moxie]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Unconfirmed reports are circulating that Gael Monfils failed a blood test between the French Open and Halle and this is why he pulled out of Wimbledon citing "personal reasons". Again, unconfirmed but there you go. He has played recently so it's anyone's guess.

A French poster mentioned it here. Apparently announced on French radio station RMC Sports. He's also withdrawn from Washington with a biceps injury for the record.

http://www.menstennisforums.com/showthread.php?p=17020113

I went to the website of RMC Sport, and went back to stories on their website as far as the FO. I also searched "Gael Monfils" and found no story. If they were putting it out there, I would think it would be a story on their site. Perhaps someone through something out there carelessly, on-air, but there website is not supporting it. I also googled around in French. Nothing.

You can look at RMC website with this link. You don't need to speak French to see there is no such headline.

Men's Tennis Forums can't really be considered a "source," imo.

 

[Front242]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Merging the two seems like a good idea. I agree to an extent about forums not being sources but in some cases certain posters have links to players' camps or get leaks before the main sites. They have to start somewhere. I've a feeling we'll hear some more names of players caught in the weeks leading up to the US Open. Crazy amount of withdrawals this year at Wimbledon. Only time will tell.

 

[Moxie]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

nonsense. they can all serve at 130 mph or at higher speeds.

nadal has shoulder issues so he stopped quickly after 2010.

even fabric santoro has hit serves at 130+ mph.


and now I heard that ryan Harrison hit one at 142 mph.

Given that doing so improves the chances of earning more free points I'm sure they all would if they could.

well, i think /technically/ yes, pretty much all pros would be capable of accelerating the ball to 130 and bring it somewhere across the net. do it with the necessary spin and placement necessary to make it a viable weapon in a match? that's another issue of course, because otherwise yes, everyone would make almost every serve a 130+ one.

Ok, tell me how ped can improve stamina and speed in measurable terms? strengths is not a factor in tennis otherwise you would have muscle guys ruling the sport. Power in tennis come from TECHNIQUE....once you are already relative strong through training; there is no point of increasing body mass. It's counterproductive actually.

how can PED improve stamina and speed? i reckon they don't, which is why i've never heard of an endurance athletes (like cyclists) or athletes who need speed (like sprinters) ever doping...:s
and yes, strength is not an issue - again, all our favorite pros hit the weights because they like the "clank" sound the machines make.

just to be clear: modern PEDs are more than your average 1970ies juicer bodybuilder testosterone...:nono

---

and there is no question that one can obtain an edge but mostly in sports like cycling, weightlifting, American football, baseball, basketball, and track and field. and hence that is where the use is most rampant.

marginal cost greatly exceeds the marginal benefits in tennis of doping. it is just not the right sport for it.

you simply cannot beat the better players day in and day out because they are simply more talented and more gifted. they are also shrewd problem solvers on the court. they encounter far less difficulty in performing under clutch circumstances. they are mentally tough and they have massive testicular fortitude. they will not give in even for a single point.

and they are physically gifted. they have the right height and so forth.


you may have noticed that the short guys don't win anything big in modern tennis.


so no amount of doping will help you beat the better players. you can take that stuff until the end of all time. you are just not going to win even a masters event, let alone a slam.

that small edge that you speak of is too insignificant in our sport.

guys doping doesn't pay in our sport. it is not even an issue in the sport from my vantage point.


it pays where its use is rampant. that should have been your first clue.


I am bumping this post again.

thanks, and i'll bump the bump - because this is so close to hunting's point, yet makes so much more sense. the edge that you can get from doping in tennis might not be big enough to justify the risk. this is debatable. i happen to agree. but to deny any potential edge is ridiculous.

---

I agree with this, and couldn't decide who to quote, so I just landed on you. That huntingyou and Clay Death seem to deny any advantage in doping seems to me to be head in the sand. I do get that there can be an advantage. But the question is over advantage vs. risk assessment vs. a player's skill level. This is why I don't think the top guys do dope. I believe they're so much more talented, and they have the money to keep an amazing training team, and they're ruthlessly competitive, and so keep to a serious training regime. In that sense, I agree with HY and CD. Their bodies are treated like Ferraris, and they have a whole pit-crew.

However, where I see the temptation may lie is in the middling- and lower-levels of the rankings. Every round won is worth money to them. And a few really productive years could set you up pretty well. Looking at it from that perspective, it could feel worth the risk. I don't see how it's worth the risk for the top guys/gals, especially when they're already worth millions. It's possible to say that they are just protected by the powers that be, but that is too sad a possibility. If that's so, I'll have to give up on tennis, as it would be just a joke, like cycling, and Sat. afternoon wrestling.