Biogenesis / Troicki / Cilic / Doping in Tennis

[tented]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

That was in direct response to oshoselite, a Nadal fan who was insinuating Djokovic was on something but completely dismissing the possibility of others. He was actually the first there to talk about PEDs. We'll all find out some day anyway fingers crossed.

We'll all NOT find out some day, fingers crossed, because none of them are guilty of actually doing it. If the top guys have been doping, it would be terrible for the sport.

While some Roger and Novak fans are salivating at the thought of Rafa being found guilty, and some Rafa fans dream of Novak or Roger getting caught, etc., that's such a self-interested, small-minded way of looking at things. It ignores the big picture.

I can engage in schadenfreude as much as the next guy, at times, but not when it comes to tennis. Just because Rafa has suffered some horrible losses at the hands of Djokovic and Federer, for example, that doesn't mean I want them to be caught using PEDs. The only thing such losses mean are that the other guy played better, and my guy needs to do better next time.

 

[Front242]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

I doubt that, but also, I'm not getting worked up...

I've an old laptop here (it's crap, only 1GB of ram and over 6 years old - need to buy a new one but too many bills to pay to justify it for now) and it's lagged to crap with tons of tabs open and I'm extracting, moving, remuxing stuff on 5 hard drives. Occasionally when it's responding and not lagged to hell I get to read and answer posts. Hence busy

 

[ClayDeath]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Front is wandering in night with a blindfold on looking for black cat that doesn't exist.

Too funny.

You got any other imaginary episodes futility for us mate?


Lets hear them stories.


And I am still waiting for your list of players that you claim are doping.

 

[Front242]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Front is wandering in night with a blindfold on looking for black cat that doesn't exist.

Too funny.

You got any other imaginary episodes futility for us mate?


Lets hear them stories.


And I am still waiting for your list of players that you claim are doping.

I've a stripey tabby cat asleep on my lap now if that counts. You'll be waiting a long time for that list, dude. No intention of making one so it's all just speculation.

 

[britbox]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Here ya are again, unprompted by Osho. There's plenty more, I'm sure, for anyone more skilled at the search than I am.

I know for a fact that on Tennisdigital you were even more explicit, but that site is now absent.

HuntingYou and everyone else knows your agenda regarding Nadal, that's your own business, but you let Britbox go to bat for you and you stayed quiet. That wasn't fair...

No, it's cool. I was suggesting huntingyou debate his posts... meaning posts on this board not on a different forum 18 months ago.

We have 3 doping threads - Troicki, Cilic and the Biogenesis scandal, all of which have broken this week. I'm more amazed people still think there isn't any doping in tennis given the events of the last week or that tennis doesn't need to get it's house in order regarding funding the anti-doping programme and the amount of testing being carried out.

WADA, USADA and other local testing authorities have all criticised the ITF and the dismal level of out of competition blood testing.

Front or anybody else doesn't need to name names for these to be debate worthy. We know there is a problem because top doping doctors have stated under oath they had tennis players on their books and we are now seeing Top 20 calibre players being caught.

Incidentally, There was a guy who used to sue forums and bloggers for naming names about dopers... his name, Lance Armstrong. Unless somebody fails a test, I for one, would prefer names not to be explicitly mentioned.

That doesn't prevent us from debating the wider issues though.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Incidentally, There was a guy who used to sue forums and bloggers for naming names about dopers... his name, Lance Armstrong. Unless somebody fails a test, I for one, would prefer names not to be explicitly mentioned.

That doesn't prevent us from debating the wider issues though.

Wise advice!

 

[Moxie]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Here ya are again, unprompted by Osho. There's plenty more, I'm sure, for anyone more skilled at the search than I am.

I know for a fact that on Tennisdigital you were even more explicit, but that site is now absent.

HuntingYou and everyone else knows your agenda regarding Nadal, that's your own business, but you let Britbox go to bat for you and you stayed quiet. That wasn't fair...

No, it's cool. I was suggesting huntingyou debate his posts... meaning posts on this board not on a different forum 18 months ago.

We have 3 doping threads - Troicki, Cilic and the Biogenesis scandal, all of which have broken this week. I'm more amazed people still think there isn't any doping in tennis given the events of the last week or that tennis doesn't need to get it's house in order regarding funding the anti-doping programme and the amount of testing being carried out.

WADA, USADA and other local testing authorities have all criticised the ITF and the dismal level of out of competition blood testing.

Front or anybody else doesn't need to name names for these to be debate worthy. We know there is a problem because top doping doctors have stated under oath they had tennis players on their books and we are now seeing Top 20 calibre players being caught.

Incidentally, There was a guy who used to sue forums and bloggers for naming names about dopers... his name, Lance Armstrong. Unless somebody fails a test, I for one, would prefer names not to be explicitly mentioned.

That doesn't prevent us from debating the wider issues though.

While our general policy here is that people can't randomly throw out drug accusations against specific players, and it's odd to go back over old forums, rather than just refer to the conversation on this one, it's impossible not to know what we know from past conversations, as we've gypsied a community across 3 forums. It's clear what Front thinks about Nadal, and probably Djokovic, but he would never for one moment taint Roger. I don't think it's terrible to hold his feet to the fire on this very specific thread. He's even said he's got his finger's crossed that it finally comes out. It's clear what he thinks, and it does feel like he'd love to excuse Roger's losses to Nadal because of drugs. I like Tented's post, however, that he has his finger's crossed that it comes out that none of the top guys did, for the sake of tennis. I'm on board with that.

As to the fact that we have 3 threads on doping, and what has come out in the last week: 1) We know that Cilic has a ban, but we don't know specifically why. He claims a glucous supplement that included something he didn't expect. TBD. 2) Troicki was banned for refusing a test, not testing positive for anything. 3) We know that the ITF and WADA feel pressure to crack down, given what is happening otherwise in sports.

I'm not trying to be naive, but I don't think that proves that tennis has a drug problem...it seems to prove that the governing bodies have a PR problem. But they do have a problem with consolidating a system for testing and disclosure, and they've got to do better with that.

 

[huntingyou]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Here ya are again, unprompted by Osho. There's plenty more, I'm sure, for anyone more skilled at the search than I am.

I know for a fact that on Tennisdigital you were even more explicit, but that site is now absent.

HuntingYou and everyone else knows your agenda regarding Nadal, that's your own business, but you let Britbox go to bat for you and you stayed quiet. That wasn't fair...

No, it's cool. I was suggesting huntingyou debate his posts... meaning posts on this board not on a different forum 18 months ago.

We have 3 doping threads - Troicki, Cilic and the Biogenesis scandal, all of which have broken this week. I'm more amazed people still think there isn't any doping in tennis given the events of the last week or that tennis doesn't need to get it's house in order regarding funding the anti-doping programme and the amount of testing being carried out.

WADA, USADA and other local testing authorities have all criticised the ITF and the dismal level of out of competition blood testing.

Front or anybody else doesn't need to name names for these to be debate worthy. We know there is a problem because top doping doctors have stated under oath they had tennis players on their books and we are now seeing Top 20 calibre players being caught.

Incidentally, There was a guy who used to sue forums and bloggers for naming names about dopers... his name, Lance Armstrong. Unless somebody fails a test, I for one, would prefer names not to be explicitly mentioned.

That doesn't prevent us from debating the wider issues though.

I have stated clearly my position on this matter; I have debated the doping theme numerous times including with you.

Front it's a whole different case, you don't see me asking you in particular for Rafa's doping evidence. Despite your unfounded views, over dramatic and quick to draw statements on this topic; you are smart and fair when it comes to discussing any issue on this board.

Now, I was hoping for you to apologize since I have been right all along on front's specific agenda but why rub it in?

Please proceed!

We have cilic with a ban but my perception is he took OTC supplements that trigger a positive result for one of MANY substance that are forbidden.

I asked already, DOES SOMEBODY HAS A LIST OF SUBSTANCES THAT ARE BAN BY THE ITF/ATP?

That would be an excellent point to start this debate.

 

[ClayDeath]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

it is not cycling which has a long history of this going on for the last 30 years.


a handful of players in our sport that have experimented and have been implicated relative the total number of players out there over the course of entire open era is so small so as to make it totally and completely negligible. I mean it is beyond insignificant.


translation: tennis does not have a doping problem. a very small number of low level players got caught doing something it is not even clear exactly what they did and how they managed to do it.


its clear that some people have a problem with nadal. some bloggers out there are saying stuff about him. some players might have said something. I believe Tsonga has made some references to that effect.

even guy forget has said something extremely stupid about nadal and his muscularity.

the guy wins with his will, his forehand, and his movement. he is dying out there for every point. he makes a production out of most of his matches.

and now some of that speed and movement is gone. in addition, he has allowed his once supreme fitness to drop a little bit.


he was naturally blessed with a massive vo2max and a low resting pulse rate. now things are more difficult for him.


borg was the same way. borg had a resting pulse rate of around 35 or less.

people might as well cry about borg. or Connors who was top 20 for 20 years. the fact of the matter is that these players fought with all they had and they had a lot when they were young.

in short, they were gifted but they worked tirelessly to perfect their trade.

 

[huntingyou]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

Fuentes client list will one day be in the public domain.

How do you figure that? Everything about the case is one big cover up.

The evidence may get destroyed on a judges orders but it only takes Fuentes, his wife or an associate to whistle blow on the whole charade.

why haven't they?

too much money to be made if the have names that warrant such.........

or too much money to be made by not blowing the whistle. Why would a judge decide that the evidence be destroyed? Have you ever heard anything like it?

Many times over, the NFL for example during the spygate

eh, Fuentes would make more money by selling the names. Baseball big stars couldn't keep their man quiet and they make a TON of more money than your typical tennis player.

 

[tented]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

I asked already, DOES SOMEBODY HAS A LIST OF SUBSTANCES THAT ARE BAN BY THE ITF/ATP?

That would be an excellent point to start this debate.

On the ITF's website, they have a link on their anti-doping page to the Tennis Anti-Doping Programme 2013. If you take the link, it opens a lengthy document, but in appendix 2, on pages 71-76, there is a list of prohibited substances.

It's way too long to be copied into here, though, so everyone will have to go take a look.

 

[huntingyou]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

I asked already, DOES SOMEBODY HAS A LIST OF SUBSTANCES THAT ARE BAN BY THE ITF/ATP?

That would be an excellent point to start this debate.

On the ITF's website, they have a link on their anti-doping page to the Tennis Anti-Doping Programme 2013. If you take the link, it opens a lengthy document, but in appendix 2, on pages 71-76, there is a list of prohibited substances.

It's way too long to be copied into here, though, so everyone will have to go take a look.

ok, I'll take a look.

It would be nice if they provided stated reason to ban any particular substance; from your post I can tell we are talking hundreds perhaps over a thousand?

Thanks!

 

[Grossefavourite]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

I doubt that, but also, I'm not getting worked up...

I've an old laptop here (it's crap, only 1GB of ram and over 6 years old - need to buy a new one but too many bills to pay to justify it for now) and it's lagged to crap with tons of tabs open and I'm extracting, moving, remuxing stuff on 5 hard drives. Occasionally when it's responding and not lagged to hell I get to read and answer posts. Hence busy

---

For the record, both of Roger's parents were pharmaceutical executives living in the country boasting the largest drug companies in the world. A few years ago, athletes from the surrounding countries claim that Switzerland provided the easiest access to PED's than any other country in the region. So if you're gonna speculate....

---

And Roger's sister is a nurse to boot, with access to and knowledge of drugs too.

 

[britbox]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Federer's sister is a nurse? Well there we have it people. Close the book on this rock solid evidence.

I actually like Federer's views on doping and his suggested solutions, including retaining samples for future testing.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/01/sport/tennis/federer-doping-drugs-tennis

 

[Grossefavourite]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Federer's sister is a nurse? Well there we have it people. Close the book on this rock solid evidence.

I actually like Federer's views on doping and his suggested solutions, including retaining samples for future testing.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/01/sport/tennis/federer-doping-drugs-tennis

If Nadal's parents were in pharmaceuticals and his sister a nurse those facts would've been yoked around his neck as proof.

As far as Roger's 'views' are concerned, keep in mind Roger is Swiss, they take no firm position on any controversy, as their motto is, "If there's a fight, wait to see who wins and make him your friend."And the other motto is, 'Keep the surface clean, above all else" a lesson they learnt during the dark days of the plague that ravaged the country. Their banking system is a case in point.

 

[ClayDeath]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

next generation of drugs are in the works already.

and they will be impossible to detect.


I say let them all dope and lets level the playing field since some people are so damned hung up on this nonsense.


no amount of doping will produce somebody who can keep up with roger in his prime.

no amount of doping will allow anybody on this planet or any other planet to defeat nadal at RG if he is healthy and relatively fit.



who really gives a damn if some low level player dopes? let them. its not like they are winning more.


its a sport that requires an immense amount of skill. you perfect that and earn that on the practice courts.


and it demands an absolutely insane natural ability. either you have it or you don't. those who have it become world beaters.

and then you still have to work day and night if you want to be somebody in the sport.

you cant buy roger` forehand or nadal`s forehand with even $100 billion worth of drugs and doping. they made a living destroying the whole planet with those forehands.


only 2 such forehands in the last 60,000 years of fully documented history.


nobody has ever hit a forehand like nadal. nobody. and you then have to deal with his relentless will. now throw in the fact that he has been almost always injured ever since he was 17. he was born to win.


roger`s 17 slams were not by accident. the man was hitting perfect slices when he was just a little boy.

he was gifted by the gods. massive talent on loan from the gods.



little guys don't matter and the big guys are too damn talented. that is why they are the best in history.

no drugs made them what they became. they won with their gifts and their blood, sweat, and tears.

 

[britbox]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Nobody has mentioned Nadal on this thread or any of the 3 doping threads. Bear that in mind. The only name being bandied around other than the caught athletes, or athletes who have worked with banned doping doctors is that of Roger Federer and he's been named by Nadal fans on this thread. It's fairly petty and we shouldn't be naming athletes who have no case to answer or links to doping doctors.

The ITF banned list makes no reference to sibling occupations or the swiss banking system.

 

[Grossefavourite]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Nobody has mentioned Nadal on this thread or any of the 3 doping threads. Bear that in mind. The only name being bandied around other than the caught athletes, or athletes who have worked with banned doping doctors is that of Roger Federer and he's been named by Nadal fans on this thread. It's fairly petty and we shouldn't be naming athletes who have no case to answer or links to doping doctors.

The ITF banned list makes no reference to sibling occupations or the swiss banking system.

Are you sure?

 

[ClayDeath]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

I know that baron britbox but those names get thrown out a lot. I am making it clear to the masses that the top guns don't need it. and that is the point here from my vantage point anyway.

I am busy making my own point about the sport in my own unique way. it is a sport that happens to require an immense amount of skill. and then you need all that natural ability. you either have that or you don't.


I have played the sport at a fairly high level. I was born with amazing speed and unlimited endurance (high level of vo2max).

still I worked day and night to develop my strokes without which I would not have been able to beat anyone.

I would blast the cement wall 2-3 hours a day minimum before even hitting the practice courts. I even put in a few 10 hour days which is insane but that is what it took for me.

anyway it is not rocket science. anybody reading any of front`s posts would quickly figure out that he is obsessed with nadal.


but we, on the other hand, make it a point to not name anybody because that is what you do when you don't have any evidence. i refuse to accuse anybody even with evidence because i may not know the nature of the evidence.


hell I don't even believe troicki is guilty in any way. surely there is some sort of miscalculation.


i have said all along that this deal is a nonissue in our sport.


but the discussion is fascinating anyway. and folks are enjoying the debates and the discussions.

fascinating threads and fascinating discussions. that is how we do it at tennis frontier.

everybody just jump in and offer your own take. no need to be shy. we are a family here.

 

[Moxie]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Federer's sister is a nurse? Well there we have it people. Close the book on this rock solid evidence.

I actually like Federer's views on doping and his suggested solutions, including retaining samples for future testing.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/01/sport/tennis/federer-doping-drugs-tennis

Federer's sister is a nurse? Well there we have it people. Close the book on this rock solid evidence.

I actually like Federer's views on doping and his suggested solutions, including retaining samples for future testing.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/03/01/sport/tennis/federer-doping-drugs-tennis

If Nadal's parents were in pharmaceuticals and his sister a nurse those facts would've been yoked around his neck as proof.

Too true.

Nobody has mentioned Nadal on this thread or any of the 3 doping threads. Bear that in mind. The only name being bandied around other than the caught athletes, or athletes who have worked with banned doping doctors is that of Roger Federer and he's been named by Nadal fans on this thread. It's fairly petty and we shouldn't be naming athletes who have no case to answer or links to doping doctors.

The ITF banned list makes no reference to sibling occupations or the swiss banking system.

Oh, don't be so prim. You are one who argues that there is doping in tennis and there should be more done. And you know that Nadal's name get's bandied about over it. (Always out of sour grapes, I would say.) No one is saying that Roger dopes. The comparison being made is that you could hang Roger with the same flimsy and circumstantial evidence that regularly gets slung at Nadal. It's all fine to call me naive if I say that I don't think the top tier of tennis dopes, but when folks says that that could include Federer, some folks back off in a big way.