Biogenesis / Troicki / Cilic / Doping in Tennis

[Grossefavourite]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Well, at least we know Roger does take something...along with the cortisone shots.

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2013/07/federer-may-skip-montreal-if-back-doesnt-improve/48553/

 

[Kieran]

RE: Viktor Troicki banned for 18 months

Anybody here think Troicki's coach should be sacked, at the very least? According to Steve Tignor's take, on tennis.com, the ITF said:

“We consider that Mr. Reader,” they wrote of his testimony, “without having given any proper thought to the matter, was prepared to say whatever he felt would be likely to assist his player in avoiding a sanction.”

I mean, this guy Reader was in the room. If Troicki had nothing to hide, the very least he should have done is to stand up to his player, insist that he understand the consequences of refusing the test and generally manage the thing and look after him...

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

and he even brags about it. oh my... god beware, we might even See him with an aspirin, or some other anti-inflammatory, some day.

btw, where are you taking the cortisone part from? i mean, it's a common treatment for tennis players, so i wouldn't be surprised and it wouldn't be a (PED-related) problem. just that i haven't heard about Fed getting cortisone yet, and i'd appreciate the info, as that would be telling of his current condition.

---

Here ya are again, unprompted by Osho. There's plenty more, I'm sure, for anyone more skilled at the search than I am.

I know for a fact that on Tennisdigital you were even more explicit, but that site is now absent.

HuntingYou and everyone else knows your agenda regarding Nadal, that's your own business, but you let Britbox go to bat for you and you stayed quiet. That wasn't fair...

No, it's cool. I was suggesting huntingyou debate his posts... meaning posts on this board not on a different forum 18 months ago.

Kieran was so friendly as to find the post from 18 months and two boards (and hundreds, if not thousands of threads) ago where Front named Rafa. that's Troicki kind of time. i think by now Front, no matter what his motivations might be, should've earned the right to talk about doping without being accused of doing it in a crusade against one player, when he actually doesn't name (or even visibly imply) anyone's name - discuss what he says, and not what we think he might mean.

This notion of disregarding, or ascribing less importance to, something because it was written on a different forum needs to be dispelled immediately.

If we had all been employees of the same company, and had discussed various topics in the employee cafeteria, then the company had gone out of business; if we had thus started working for a different company, and it, too, had gone out of business; if we therefore now found ourselves working for a third company, would our lunch discussions while working at the first two companies mean less than the ones from the third? The geographic changes would have been beyond our control; they would not have been the result of choices. And had we all worked, lunched, talked together at the same company during the same time period, this temporal distinction would not be attempted now.

but a year and a half is still quite some time, right?

so i say if someone makes a point now, we adress the point that is made now, and not the background that came with a quite similar point 18 months ago. yes, you know his background, and by way of two pages of discussion, everyone else has a chance to read into it as well, and will from hence on forth keep this in mind when reading Front's opinion on doping. but does it change all that much? again, i prefer to look at the arguments people are currently bringing forth, and look at whether or not anything convincing is there right now.


which i've tried, at length, but it doesn't seem to be as interesting as whatever is going right now is.



one more try, though: what about that "doping benefits mental fortitude"? sorry, but i really think it's BS. doesn't make sense to me. Front, you've hinted before, if i recall correctly, at having more info on that - i'd appreciate it, or anyone else's input, because i really can't imagine any benefit for tennis there.

 

[huntingyou]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

I love this!!!!

britbox thought his wittiness was going to seize the day but it ended firing back in his face.

This is not about what somebody said in a board months ago, this very same posters keep using the same innuendos in this very board as recent as a couple days ago. Front was exposed for what he is, nothing more nothing less. It was just a matter of smoking the mole out of the hole.

What I find interesting is, same people that are eager to talk the subject and open threads left and right, quickly call foul when their horse in the race get's call out. The irony.........

My position all alone has been that any doping would provide negligent results at best in tennis, I personally believe substances that aid in healing should be allow because they are no PED........scientifically, no such thing as performance enhancing drug has been proven in tennis; a sport where you seat down every other game; stand around in the baseline to serve or return serve and most points end within 5 strokes. I personally can play for 2-3 hours while I'm of shape while I can't even play one full all court basketball game unless I'm in decent shape.

I believe no top dog it's doing doping, but if there is one then shouldn't we start with the guy that defies the odds and miss no slams since the beginning of time? HAHAHA Grosse is killing it.....swiss banking system is nefarious for sure, all criminals.

 

[Grossefavourite]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

and he even brags about it. oh my... god beware, we might even See him with an aspirin, or some other anti-inflammatory, some day.

btw, where are you taking the cortisone part from? i mean, it's a common treatment for tennis players, so i wouldn't be surprised and it wouldn't be a (PED-related) problem. just that i haven't heard about Fed getting cortisone yet, and i'd appreciate the info, as that would be telling of his current condition.

---

Here ya are again, unprompted by Osho. There's plenty more, I'm sure, for anyone more skilled at the search than I am.

I know for a fact that on Tennisdigital you were even more explicit, but that site is now absent.

HuntingYou and everyone else knows your agenda regarding Nadal, that's your own business, but you let Britbox go to bat for you and you stayed quiet. That wasn't fair...

No, it's cool. I was suggesting huntingyou debate his posts... meaning posts on this board not on a different forum 18 months ago.

Kieran was so friendly as to find the post from 18 months and two boards (and hundreds, if not thousands of threads) ago where Front named Rafa. that's Troicki kind of time. i think by now Front, no matter what his motivations might be, should've earned the right to talk about doping without being accused of doing it in a crusade against one player, when he actually doesn't name (or even visibly imply) anyone's name - discuss what he says, and not what we think he might mean.

This notion of disregarding, or ascribing less importance to, something because it was written on a different forum needs to be dispelled immediately.

If we had all been employees of the same company, and had discussed various topics in the employee cafeteria, then the company had gone out of business; if we had thus started working for a different company, and it, too, had gone out of business; if we therefore now found ourselves working for a third company, would our lunch discussions while working at the first two companies mean less than the ones from the third? The geographic changes would have been beyond our control; they would not have been the result of choices. And had we all worked, lunched, talked together at the same company during the same time period, this temporal distinction would not be attempted now.

but a year and a half is still quite some time, right?

so i say if someone makes a point now, we adress the point that is made now, and not the background that came with a quite similar point 18 months ago. yes, you know his background, and by way of two pages of discussion, everyone else has a chance to read into it as well, and will from hence on forth keep this in mind when reading Front's opinion on doping. but does it change all that much? again, i prefer to look at the arguments people are currently bringing forth, and look at whether or not anything convincing is there right now.


which i've tried, at length, but it doesn't seem to be as interesting as whatever is going right now is.



one more try, though: what about that "doping benefits mental fortitude"? sorry, but i really think it's BS. doesn't make sense to me. Front, you've hinted before, if i recall correctly, at having more info on that - i'd appreciate it, or anyone else's input, because i really can't imagine any benefit for tennis there.

---

Rojay admitted to cortisone shots last year (?) or the year before (?). Can't recall which. In any event, just sick and tired of the Rojay deification and Nadal vilification. Rafa is all drugs while Rojay, the God, is all talent, divine will, spring water and clean mountain air.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

but a year and a half is still quite some time, right?

Well, you're the legal guy, you think it would be a good defence in court: "uh, but judge, I libeled them guys 18 months ago, gimme a break!"

 

[britbox]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

That is unfair to say. Nadal fans are just fighting innuendo from 'some folks' with off-set examples of how you can't say "top players" and only imply some, and have said why they don't think the top guys dope. Anyway, you started this thread. Where did you think it was going to go? We've already had the whole conversation about what the ITP aught to do.

Exactly. Everyone knows how to read between the lines and that's why hunting pulled Front out. Threads like this are just like every other thread: fans circle wagons and sling arrows, but it's not just one set of fans...

So he's damned if he does name players and damned if he doesn't.

He chose not to name players on this thread and talk generally about doping in the sport... Immediately it was demanded he name names on multiple occasions. He chose not to, so tented listed Federer as the prime doping suspect, but with the added subsequent note that he didn't really believe what he was posting.

So, tented is posting something he doesn't actually believe in response to something that wasn't actually said but is deemed to be "thought"...

Someone else is providing misleading information about Federer's parents... the same poster accusing Djokovic of doping. Somebody else digs out 18 month old posts on another board where Front does make comments but in response to another Nadal fan accusing Djokovic of doping and the upshot of all this is supposed to be the "unspoken" witch hunt against Rafael Nadal.

Don't take the above too seriously, I'm actually laughing about it. Hilarious stuff.

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

I love this!!!!

britbox thought his wittiness was going to seize the day but it ended firing back in his face.

This is not about what somebody said in a board months ago, this very same posters keep using the same innuendos in this very board as recent as a couple days ago. Front was exposed for what he is, nothing more nothing less. It was just a matter of smoking the mole out of the hole.

What I find interesting is, same people that are eager to talk the subject and open threads left and right, quickly call foul when their horse in the race get's call out. The irony.........

My position all alone has been that any doping would provide negligent results at best in tennis, I personally believe substances that aid in healing should be allow because they are no PED........scientifically, no such thing as performance enhancing drug has been proven in tennis; a sport where you seat down every other game; stand around in the baseline to serve or return serve and most points end within 5 strokes. I personally can play for 2-3 hours while I'm of shape while I can't even play one full all court basketball game unless I'm in decent shape.

I believe no top dog it's doing doping, but if there is one then shouldn't we start with the guy that defies the odds and miss no slams since the beginning of time? HAHAHA Grosse is killing it.....swiss banking system is nefarious for sure, all criminals.

again... dude, apart from the nonsense, back on topic:


i've said before that i'm not convinced by Front's case FOR doping being a factor in tennis, but you then also have to turn around and come with the most ridiculous point as to whether doping can't be a factor. your claims basically amount to you saying that tennis is NOT about athletics AT ALL. it's as if it were freaking chess, with the difference that they're standing, not sitting.

and btw, i'm sure i could find you a bunch of people that you'd have no problem playing a full match of basketball with, so long as you're able to stand, walk, and lightly jog for about 45 minutes (and getting that kind of time would mean that you're a key player).

btw, i'd be able to play a full match of basketball. i can also run 100 metres, or even 10.000 metres; i can swim also swim for, say 100 or 200 metres without a problem (in three different styles as well). i can surely bike for 4-8 hours, and can climb a mountain or two on a bike. still, i reckon in any of these activities, PEDs could make a difference.

again, i personally don't think PEDs are a big part in tennis. i think the benefit, while obvious (strength, stamina, recovery) doesn't outweigh the risk - at least i hope it doesn't. and most of all, i have yet to hear about a relevant positive test result, let alone a real arsenal of doping means à la cycling (or, for example, cross-country in Austria). yes, the lack of news could be due to a huge conspiratory cover-up. but unlike other posters, i don't tend to believe in huge conspirations.

---

Rojay admitted to cortisone shots last year (?) or the year before (?). Can't recall which. In any event, just sick and tired of the Rojay deification and Nadal vilification. Rafa is all drugs while Rojay, the God, is all talent, divine will, spring water and clean mountain air.

there's nothing to "admit to", cortisone shots are a legitimate treatment, and hardly something to go for if not medically necessary. see Agassi's bio or your local doctor for more info.

once again: WHAT VILIFICATION? funny enough, it was YOU who started the name-game, directly calling out Novak, and only then, after days of discussion the first, weak sign of someone blaming Rafa even came up (apart from you also bringing our attention to the rumors about Cilic, which as far as i know of are just that - rumors).

so first you blame Novak, now you go on like a broken record about Roger, all because you feel like someone might have in a sub-text accused Rafa of anything? please, calm down.

 

[tented]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

He chose not to name players on this thread and talk generally about doping in the sport... Immediately it was demanded he name names on multiple occasions. He chose not to, so tented listed Federer as the prime doping suspect, but with the added subsequent note that he didn't really believe what he was posting.

So, tented is posting something he doesn't actually believe in response to something that wasn't actually said but is deemed to be "thought"...

I cannot believe the amount of attention my post has attracted. I thought it was self-evident that it was merely a demonstration of the problems of free association and speculation. The witch-hunt mentality. Did you honestly think I was accusing Roger, thus feel the need to quote my post, what, 3-4 times now?

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

but a year and a half is still quite some time, right?

Well, you're the legal guy, you think it would be a good defence in court: "uh, but judge, I libeled them guys 18 months ago, gimme a break!"

the concept called "statute of limitations". penalties for different offences (as well as personal claims) cease to be enforceable after a time.

also, somewhat related, there's the idea of "ne bis in idem". you do an offense, you get penalized - once. so he libeled the guy 18 months ago, he was called on it (the discussion equivalent of punishment), so that's that. as long as he makes no implications, then why keep bringing it up? let's move on, and respond to what people are actually saying

 

[Kieran]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

So he's damned if he does name players and damned if he doesn't.

He chose not to name players on this thread and talk generally about doping in the sport... Immediately it was demanded he name names on multiple occasions. He chose not to, so tented listed Federer as the prime doping suspect, but with the added subsequent note that he didn't really believe what he was posting.

So, tented is posting something he doesn't actually believe in response to something that wasn't actually said but is deemed to be "thought"...

Someone else is providing misleading information about Federer's parents... the same poster accusing Djokovic of doping. Somebody else digs out 18 month old posts on another board where Front does make comments but in response to another Nadal fan accusing Djokovic of doping and the upshot of all this is supposed to be the "unspoken" witch hunt against Rafael Nadal.

Don't take the above too seriously, I'm actually laughing about it. Hilarious stuff.

Hey brother, I don't see why you're getting so defensive on Front's behalf - he's already said he didn't ask you to. Fact is, there's no harm in discussing posters motives and intentions when they post. He was asked a few times to clarify his own opinion, and he balked.

His own opinion is on the record anyway, so whatever he says, we see it in the light of his previous pronouncements, which I think is proper. I don't recall him ever retracting them...

 

[britbox]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

He chose not to name players on this thread and talk generally about doping in the sport... Immediately it was demanded he name names on multiple occasions. He chose not to, so tented listed Federer as the prime doping suspect, but with the added subsequent note that he didn't really believe what he was posting.

So, tented is posting something he doesn't actually believe in response to something that wasn't actually said but is deemed to be "thought"...

I cannot believe the amount of attention my post has attracted. I thought it was self-evident that it was merely a demonstration of the problems of free association and speculation. The witch-hunt mentality. Did you honestly think I was accusing Roger, thus feel the need to quote my post, what, 3-4 times now?

I've already acknowledged you said afterwards that you didn't agree with what you posted. I'm aware you put it up to tackle what Front might think, even without him posting anything about any specific players.

 

[Front242]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

one more try, though: what about that "doping benefits mental fortitude"? sorry, but i really think it's BS. doesn't make sense to me. Front, you've hinted before, if i recall correctly, at having more info on that - i'd appreciate it, or anyone else's input, because i really can't imagine any benefit for tennis there.

Well it's not really info, just observation. I mean you can see that guys lifting huge weights in the gym do get mental stimulation as well as huge strength increases from massively amplified testosterone. So I mentioned before in that respect it's basically a case of their brains telling them "I can do this". They feel like Superman. Translate that to tennis and if you're taking stuff for stamina like EPO your added lung capacity also makes you feel superhuman and of course it helps greatly mentally. You know even if you fall behind, if you play smart and run your opponent ragged you'll likely outlast them physically and turn things round.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

the concept called "statute of limitations". penalties for different offences (as well as obligatory claims) cease to be enforceable after a time.

also, somewhat related, there's also the idea of "ne bis in idem" (~not twice in the same). you do an offense, you get penalized - once. and that's done. so he libeled the guy 18 months ago, he was called on it (the discussion equivalent of punishment), so that's that. as long as he makes no implications, then why keep bringing it up? let's move on, and respond to what people are actually saying

Oh, "responding to what people are actually saying" seems to be all I'm doing lately! :snigger

Statute of limitations isn't gone on this one until due process is finished. Here, I'm starting to sound like a lawyer. However, asking a person if their views have changed, or what they are, is part and parcel of what chat sites are about. I'm failing to see why everyone is getting so touchy about it on Front's behalf.

As me mudder would say, he's big and ugly enough to fend for himself...

 

[huntingyou]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

again... dude, apart from the nonsense, back on topic:


i've said before that i'm not convinced by Front's case FOR doping being a factor in tennis, but you then also have to turn around and come with the most ridiculous point as to whether doping can't be a factor. your claims basically amount to you saying that tennis is NOT about athletics AT ALL. it's as if it were freaking chess, with the difference that they're standing, not sitting.

and btw, i'm sure i could find you a bunch of people that you'd have no problem playing a full match of basketball with, so long as you're able to stand, walk, and lightly jog for about 45 minutes (and getting that kind of time would mean that you're a key player).

btw, i'd be able to play a full match of basketball. i can also run 100 metres, or even 10.000 metres; i can swim also swim for, say 100 or 200 metres without a problem (in three different styles as well). i can surely bike for 4-8 hours, and can climb a mountain or two on a bike. still, i reckon in any of these activities, PEDs could make a difference.

again, i personally don't think PEDs are a big part in tennis. i think the benefit, while obvious (strength, stamina, recovery) doesn't outweigh the risk - at least i hope it doesn't. and most of all, i have yet to hear about a relevant positive test result, let alone a real arsenal of doping means à la cycling (or, for example, cross-country in Austria). yes, the lack of news could be due to a huge conspiratory cover-up. but unlike other posters, i don't tend to believe in huge conspirations.

what nonsense?

front is front, end of the story. I will address him the same every time he speak his nonsense on this subject.

I provided my opinion of doping, you only have yours unless you can bring scientific evidence on how doping benefits tennis performance. I believe it's inconsequential or marginal at best.

Stop your analogy crap, don't compare what you can do with what I can do.......tennis it's a relative EASY sport compare to basketball when it comes to physical endurance. That's my point, are you in the inquisition of the tennis boards? Hold me to a higher standard whenever I make "common people" observation to what my experience is? This is easy, you DON'T stop in basketball...defense and offense; nowhere to hide. In tennis you can winged it the whole math on your returns and only put effort sporadically.

huge conspirators all around...it only takes people to talk. in elementary schools, little girls conspire to exclude a particular one from the group.......it's human nature

 

[Kieran]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Hey hunting,

You're an expert on conspiracy theories, so why so hard on people with this one? JohnSteinbeck is being reasonable, as is Britbox, and Front is seeing the humourous side of the exchange. Everyone acknowledges it's all speculation, which people are entitled to do. No need to hop on anybody on this one...

 

[britbox]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

So he's damned if he does name players and damned if he doesn't.

He chose not to name players on this thread and talk generally about doping in the sport... Immediately it was demanded he name names on multiple occasions. He chose not to, so tented listed Federer as the prime doping suspect, but with the added subsequent note that he didn't really believe what he was posting.

So, tented is posting something he doesn't actually believe in response to something that wasn't actually said but is deemed to be "thought"...

Someone else is providing misleading information about Federer's parents... the same poster accusing Djokovic of doping. Somebody else digs out 18 month old posts on another board where Front does make comments but in response to another Nadal fan accusing Djokovic of doping and the upshot of all this is supposed to be the "unspoken" witch hunt against Rafael Nadal.

Don't take the above too seriously, I'm actually laughing about it. Hilarious stuff.

Hey brother, I don't see why you're getting so defensive on Front's behalf - he's already said he didn't ask you to. Fact is, there's no harm in discussing posters motives and intentions when they post. He was asked a few times to clarify his own opinion, and he balked.

His own opinion is on the record anyway, so whatever he says, we see it in the light of his previous pronouncements, which I think is proper. I don't recall him ever retracting them...

I'm not getting defensive.. I find it pretty funny. He gets criticised for naming players in years old posts and when he refrains from it, it's repeatedly demanded that he starts naming them. When he doesn't, the response is "Sod it, let's start throwing cakes anyway... Pass me the Federer hot cross bun...."

Have to laugh buddy... I'm not taking this thread very seriously since it became more about what a poster isn't posting and might be thinking rather than discussing the topic at hand.

 

[Johnsteinbeck]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

one more try, though: what about that "doping benefits mental fortitude"? sorry, but i really think it's BS. doesn't make sense to me. Front, you've hinted before, if i recall correctly, at having more info on that - i'd appreciate it, or anyone else's input, because i really can't imagine any benefit for tennis there.

Well it's not really info, just observation. I mean you can see that guys lifting huge weights in the gym do get mental stimulation as well as huge strength increases from massively amplified testosterone. So I mentioned before in that respect it's basically a case of their brains telling them "I can do this". They feel like Superman. Translate that to tennis and if you're taking stuff for stamina like EPO your added lung capacity also makes you feel superhuman and of course it helps greatly mentally. You know even if you fall behind, if you play smart and run your opponent ragged you'll likely outlast them physically and turn things round.

alright, thanks. so if it's just observation, i can fully discard this, because i think it makes little sense in the translation to tennis. i just don't see it.

how much will knowing you can outlast an opponent physically help you in a sport where, with a little luck, your opponent might blast you off the court in an hour or two? and if you're feeling superhuman due to your great juiced-up physical abilities, how will you cope when the guy actually sends winners to your left and right for a while, which can always happen in the sport? the "i can do this" mentality will only take you so far as you can actually do it, and you'll have to face reality sooner or later. a juiced-up bodybuilder who can, due to his doping ways, can push more than ever before and more than anyone else of course will seem quite confident. a tennis player who still has to struggle and fight against his top-ranked opponents? why would he be so overly confident - or more confident than any other guy who just happens to be winning a lot?
also, the thing about increased aggression is not just an observation, that's a fact - and i really think this side-effect could be very counterproductive in tennis (note: it would also mean that primarily defensive players are per evidence less likely to be doping, so i'll take that as a note).


so while aggressive doping might have side effects on the psychological side, i really don't see how that would be a systematic advantage in any way.

 

[Kieran]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

I'm not getting defensive.. I find it pretty funny. He gets criticised for naming players in years old posts and when he refrains from it, it's repeatedly demanded that he starts naming them. When he doesn't, the response is "Sod it, let's start throwing cakes anyway... Pass me the Federer hot cross bun...."

Have to laugh buddy... I'm not taking this thread very seriously since it became more about what a poster isn't posting and might be thinking rather than discussing the topic at hand.

I wouldn't eat the Federer bun, if I were you. There might be something in it!

I think you're missing the point on why people are suspicious of Front on this one, but that's cool. I missed the point on something before and - wait, I tell a lie, I didn't! :snigger

 

[huntingyou]

RE: Biogenesis Scandal - Tennis Players on the books

Hey hunting,

You're an expert on conspiracy theories, so why so hard on people with this one? JohnSteinbeck is being reasonable, as is Britbox, and Front is seeing the humourous side of the exchange. Everyone acknowledges it's all speculation, which people are entitled to do. No need to hop on anybody on this one...

they are hoping on me mate....and it's no conspiracy theory if it's happened or happening. The term itself it's self-defeating as implying fake.

you heard of the kosh brothers and the Wisconsin governor Scott Walker? they conspired to eliminate collective bargain laws; from A to Z.....a pefect conspiracy and they were expose by a prankster who called sctott walker pretending to be one of the kosh brother. This happened in 2011-2012 BTW.

Anyways, I'm engaging in the doping argument as well and provided my take on it. John attacked me the "nonsense" mantra...I only respond back. If people want to be friend they can PM me, or address me at the castle but if we are engaging on a topic like this.....I will proceed with my M.O. it takes two to tango right?