Basel 2014 ATP 500

[bobvance]

Any predictions on the Nadal/Coric match? Can the kid pull a Kyrgios and upset Rafa, or is he going to fold when he sees his idol across the net?

 

[DarthFed]

Haven't seen the kid play at all. How tall is he and does he have a 2HBH?

 

[El Dude]

It seems predictable that you're going to find people use it as an excuse for if and when he loses, but that's par for the course.

Even more par for the course is that there's people who'll ignore the fact that he's struggling on with appendicitis...

Bait taken

I know, I know - Rafa only loses when he's injured. I get it. But don't worry, you've got every angle covered: If Rafa wins Basel, then it is amazing considering that he was playing injured; if he loses, you've got your excuse for why he lost.

 

[bobvance]

Haven't seen the kid play at all. How tall is he and does he have a 2HBH?

Good questions when someone is playing Rafa. I haven't seen him play either, only highlights. He has a two hander and is listed at 6'1".

Going off the clips I've seen he seems willing to come in, but doesn't hug the baseline or take the ball particularly early. If I had to guess I'd say Rafa is going to bludgeon him with the forehand.

 

[bobvance]

It seems predictable that you're going to find people use it as an excuse for if and when he loses, but that's par for the course.

Even more par for the course is that there's people who'll ignore the fact that he's struggling on with appendicitis...

Bait taken

I know, I know - Rafa only loses when he's injured. I get it. But don't worry, you've got every angle covered: If Rafa wins Basel, then it is amazing considering that he was playing injured; if he loses, you've got your excuse for why he lost.

This tournament is already a victory for Rafa since he made it past the toughest first round match he's ever had.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Congrats to Goffin. Milos has not been himself recently but it is not Goffin's problem, no?

 

[Kieran]

It seems predictable that you're going to find people use it as an excuse for if and when he loses, but that's par for the course.

Even more par for the course is that there's people who'll ignore the fact that he's struggling on with appendicitis...

Bait taken

I know, I know - Rafa only loses when he's injured. I get it. But don't worry, you've got every angle covered: If Rafa wins Basel, then it is amazing considering that he was playing injured; if he loses, you've got your excuse for why he lost.

Bait taken

 

[brokenshoelace]

It seems predictable that you're going to find people use it as an excuse for if and when he loses, but that's par for the course.

Even more par for the course is that there's people who'll ignore the fact that he's struggling on with appendicitis...

Bait taken

I know, I know - Rafa only loses when he's injured. I get it. But don't worry, you've got every angle covered: If Rafa wins Basel, then it is amazing considering that he was playing injured; if he loses, you've got your excuse for why he lost.

Serious question: Has it ever occurred to you that the scenario above might SOMETIMES be true? As in, a player is injured for real, or has something ailing him significantly (or at least significantly enough to struggle with form over the past few weeks and lose to Klizan and Feliciano Lopez while looking like crap), to the point where winning a tournament is an impressive feat but losing is expected giving his condition?

I mean, you're telling me this can never ever happen?

PS: Save me the history lesson about "Oh but the problem is Rafa always has an excuse." I'm not talking about the past. I'm not talking about knees. I'm not talking about the back. I'm talking about his condition right now, which happens to require surgery and is forcing him out of Bercy (and presumably the WTF).

So answer my question above with yes or no, if you please will.

 

[El Dude]

Bait taken

Come on, Kieran, you can do better than that!

Serious question: Has it ever occurred to you that the scenario above might SOMETIMES be true? As in, a player is injured for real, or has something ailing him significantly (or at least significantly enough to struggle with form over the past few weeks and lose to Klizan and Feliciano Lopez while looking like crap), to the point where winning a tournament is an impressive feat but losing is expected giving his condition?

I mean, you're telling me this can never ever happen?

PS: Save me the history lesson about "Oh but the problem is Rafa always has an excuse." I'm not talking about the past. I'm not talking about knees. I'm not talking about the back. I'm talking about his condition right now, which happens to require surgery and is forcing him out of Bercy (and presumably the WTF).

So answer my question above with yes or no, if you please will.

Of course, BS - I get it. Rafa has appendicitis. But he's also playing, and evidently playing well. If it is affecting his play, it is minimal (if at all).

The "history lesson," as you call it, is hard to ignore - except for, perhaps, Nadalites. I get that Rafa has a far worse injury history than, say, Novak or Roger. But it also gets a bit tiresome hearing about this or that injury endlessly being used as an excuse for why Rafa didn't win, or if he does win how heroic and amazing he did despite his debilitation. I don't know if it is simply because he's injured more often, but his camp seems far more vocal about his injuries than the camps of other top players.

 

[Kieran]

Except that you're the one who brought "excuses" into the discussion. Nobody was making any excuses and if anything, we were saying he seems to be playing better now he's off the antibiotics (if he is).

But you know, Rafa can't have any ailment - and nobody can discuss these in any way - without Fedfans bringing up "excuses."

I don't know if it is simply because he's injured more often, but his camp seems far more vocal about his injuries than the camps of other top players.

The clue is in how many tourneys he skips...

 

[DarthFed]

Except that you're the one who brought "excuses" into the discussion. Nobody was making any excuses and if anything, we were saying he seems to be playing better now he's off the antibiotics (if he is).

But you know, Rafa can't have any ailment - and nobody can discuss these in any way - without Fedfans bringing up "excuses."

I don't know if it is simply because he's injured more often, but his camp seems far more vocal about his injuries than the camps of other top players.

The clue is in how many tourneys he skips...

And he hasn't skipped any so far so clearly he is fine And we also know that this is someone who will skip a GS because he had a tummy ache a couple weeks before it started

 

[DarthFed]

How's it possible to get broken by the Ivo one 3 times in the first 7 service games?

 

[Kieran]

I thought young Ralph was meant to be playing now? The Raonic match can't have lasted that long, surely?

Dr Evil is having a good time in Basle...

 

[brokenshoelace]

Bait taken

Come on, Kieran, you can do better than that!

Serious question: Has it ever occurred to you that the scenario above might SOMETIMES be true? As in, a player is injured for real, or has something ailing him significantly (or at least significantly enough to struggle with form over the past few weeks and lose to Klizan and Feliciano Lopez while looking like crap), to the point where winning a tournament is an impressive feat but losing is expected giving his condition?

I mean, you're telling me this can never ever happen?

PS: Save me the history lesson about "Oh but the problem is Rafa always has an excuse." I'm not talking about the past. I'm not talking about knees. I'm not talking about the back. I'm talking about his condition right now, which happens to require surgery and is forcing him out of Bercy (and presumably the WTF).

So answer my question above with yes or no, if you please will.

Of course, BS - I get it. Rafa has appendicitis. But he's also playing, and evidently playing well. If it is affecting his play, it is minimal (if at all).

The "history lesson," as you call it, is hard to ignore - except for, perhaps, Nadalites. I get that Rafa has a far worse injury history than, say, Novak or Roger. But it also gets a bit tiresome hearing about this or that injury endlessly being used as an excuse for why Rafa didn't win, or if he does win how heroic and amazing he did despite his debilitation. I don't know if it is simply because he's injured more often, but his camp seems far more vocal about his injuries than the camps of other top players.

The notion that "if you're playing, you're fine" is something I can't subscribe to. I hate this black or white thing. No, you can play without being 100%, or even close to a 100%. If Nadal beating nobodies handily means he's fine to you, then sure. I myself, understand that sometimes the gulf in talent and abilities is so huge that even a say, 70% Nadal (just throwing a random number, to be clear) would be able to crush guys I've never heard of.

The history lesson is hard to ignore for you, but for me, I also understand that one injury might differ to another, and injuries suffered mid match that hinder his movement significantly (AO back injury), or an injury that requires surgery and just these past two weeks, has obviously forced him to play like crap (but I'm sure many will argue that it's completely normal for Nadal to blow it like that against Klizan...or lose to Feliciano Lopez) are different to injuries that are more debatable.

There are only so many times you can randomly bring up excuses and then claim "oh it's just a bait" before I have to sincerely question your objectivity on the matter (not referring to you only, but Front and others). Because seriously, Nadal is the first athlete in history that I can recall a 7-month layoff being questioned, a back injury suffered during a GS final that obviously affected him being somehow NOT supposed to be mentioned in the post match-narrative, and an upcoming surgery being ignored. It's quite baffling really.

 

[El Dude]

Kieran, the Fedfan thing is a tiresome red herring. My comments have nothing to do with being a Federer fan.

BS, honestly, it isn't clear to me whether the "baffling" part is because Rafa is strangely and unfairly misjudged, as you seem to imply, or if there's really something to it. I'm not sure we can come to a definitive answer on that one. It does seem to be that he at least has a certain reputation with regards to injuries and excuse-making; whether there is any truth to it is harder to say.

If you're going to question my objectivity about Rafa, why not question yours and Kieran's? I mean, why would a diehard Rafa fan be more objective about him than someone who is not a diehard fan? Despite what Kieran might think--who likes to blame any critique of Rafa on Fedfan sour grapes, presumably due to the H2H--I have nothing against Rafa. I've also been quite outspoken about my view that Rafa is arguably the rightful GOAT, and even said that it seems to me that the media has every complaint of his under a microscope. I've even called fellow Fedfans out on making excuses for Roger.

So question my objectivity, while not questionings yours and fellow Nadal fans, seems a tad disingenuous.

All that said, I think the greater the player the more excuses are made for him. It is just a by-product of being on top. I also hear you about the black-and-white thing. I mean, as some have said Rafa may not even be playing Basel to win, but to get his pay-check. Given that he's out of Paris, it isn't like he's using Basel for a warm-up. That said, while Rafa may not be 100%, he's still well enough to play professional tennis with--as far as I can tell--no outward sign of significant pain or injury. I just don't see a player who's really struggling out there, and find it a bit over the top how much emphasis "some" place on his injury du jour.

 

[El Dude]

One more thing. Using your black-and-white analogy, I think some fans of a given player are more or less objective than others. I think MOST fans aren't all that objective about their favorites (or least favorites), and perhaps NONE are truly objective. I try very hard to be as objective as possible about all players, and consider myself one of the more objective Federer fans - while still admitting that I can be biased at times.

So too, some Rafa fans are more or less objective than others. I'll leave it for you folks to figure it out!

 

[El Dude]

Oh yeah, props to David Goffin! He's had a pretty good year--he's at #23 in the live Race to London rankings, so if he wins a match or two at Paris might finish in the top 20.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

coric n rafa are oncourt. they have emerged through the swishing curtain.

 

[Federberg]

I'm intrigued by this. I haven't watched Coric play

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

I have. say hello the the future of tennis (even if coric gets hammered which could happen).

coric winning isn't out of the question though..so lets see what happens. rafa is playing at what level ?..dunno.