ATP World Tour Finals

[Fiero425]

YIKES! You have been drinking the @DarthFed kool-aid. I'm sorry, but let's just face it: some of you Fed fans have some really testosterone issues with Nadal. You hate his game, so you figure the only people that like him must be women who lust after the bod. Or that's the trope, which is really about Rafa having always been the "alpha" in the Fed match up. There have been so many attempts to undermine not only Rafa's tennis, but his masculinity. Which comes off as a fool's errand, but also seems to come from a place of deep insecurity on the part of the Federer fan. Facts on the ground: in sport, having such a large fan base, most of Rafa's fans are men. And let's be real: the butchest one is Nadal.

So is that why his grunt is so much like a caveman? :whistle:

 

[Moxie]

So is that why his grunt is so much like a caveman? :whistle:

Why is your post so much like that of a caveman? Uninteresting, and not contributing, IMO. However, you do support my POV: treat Nadal like a caveman, and you reduce his machismo, which seems to intimidate so many men around here. #shrivelledballs

 

[Carol]

So is that why his grunt is so much like a caveman? :whistle:

Like you which is the only thing you know to do? no way! :cuckoo:

 

[Fiero425]

Why is your post so much like that of a caveman? Uninteresting, and not contributing, IMO.

Just have never cared for your boy Nadal; his game, his gamesmanship, or his sense of entitlement to act the way he does!

 

[Carol]

Just have never cared for your boy Nadal; his game, his gamesmanship, or his sense of entitlement to act the way he does!

Who cares what you care! you have not any idea about this sport and your comments are always dumb, without sense and soooo stupid and that is one of the reason some good posters are not here any more, they couldn't stand you!!!!! :cuckoo:

 

[Moxie]

Just have never cared for your boy Nadal; his game, his gamesmanship, or his sense of entitlement to act the way he does!

"Entitlement" is your projection. He's an original, as far as tennis. I would have thought that you, of all people, would have appreciated that. But there's no accounting for your taste, that's for sure. :lulz2:

 

[El Dude]

Fiero, I love your passion but think you are being willfully obtuse. A couple things:

1) Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic have thoroughly dominated the field. Considering how long they've done it, it has less to do with weak competition (unless you think the field has been weak for 15 years, from 2004 to the present - which is silly, because you can't separate them from the generations they're part of) and more to do with their greatness.

2) This is augmented by a very weak "Lost Gen" - players born 1989 into the 90s - which has allowed the Big Four to maintain their dominance longer than they might have with a stronger younger generation.

3) "NextGen" (born mid-90s, but especially '96 and later) is much stronger. This isn't hypothetical, it is factual. Not only has NextGen won four big titles (three from Zverev, one from Khachanov), surpassing NextGen's total of three (two from Dimitrov, one from Sock).

4) NextGen is still young. The class of '96--Khachanov, Coric, Medvedev, Chung--only just turned 22 this year - the age Roger turned right after he won his first Slam. Zverev, Rublev and Fritz turned 21; Tsitsipas and Tiafoe are 20; Shapovalov and de Minaur are 19, with other promising players even younger. In fact, I think you could argue that NextGen has already equalled if not surpassed the Lost Gen. And the best is yet to come.

So patience! This isn't five years ago, when the Lost Gen should have been taking over but was flailing. I personally think that the old guys will maintain their reign for one more year, but by 2020 the NextGen will have taken over - meaning, dominate the rankings.

 

[Fiero425]

Fiero, I love your passion but think you are being willfully obtuse. A couple things:

1) Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic have thoroughly dominated the field. Considering how long they've done it, it has less to do with weak competition (unless you think the field has been weak for 15 years, from 2004 to the present - which is silly, because you can't separate them from the generations they're part of) and more to do with their greatness.

2) This is augmented by a very weak "Lost Gen" - players born 1989 into the 90s - which has allowed the Big Four to maintain their dominance longer than they might have with a stronger younger generation.

3) "NextGen" (born mid-90s, but especially '96 and later) is much stronger. This isn't hypothetical, it is factual. Not only has NextGen won four big titles (three from Zverev, one from Khachanov), surpassing NextGen's total of three (two from Dimitrov, one from Sock).

4) NextGen is still young. The class of '96--Khachanov, Coric, Medvedev, Chung--only just turned 22 this year - the age Roger turned right after he won his first Slam. Zverev, Rublev and Fritz turned 21; Tsitsipas and Tiafoe are 20; Shapovalov and de Minaur are 19, with other promising players even younger. In fact, I think you could argue that NextGen has already equalled if not surpassed the Lost Gen. And the best is yet to come.

So patience! This isn't five years ago, when the Lost Gen should have been taking over but was flailing. I personally think that the old guys will maintain their reign for one more year, but by 2020 the NextGen will have taken over - meaning, dominate the rankings.

How many times do I have to say today's players are a lot better in skill, physical fitness, and work ethic? The problem is between the ears obviously since these good players can't seem to finish no matter the lead when it really counts! Fedalovic have to be way off like Sunday when Roger couldn't find the court or Rafa couldn't find his way to London! Nole had little to no problem with the biggest server on the tour! It's just amazing to see how effortless it was for him to straight set Isner! I will try to be patient, but I'm old and won't be around forever! I need to see someone at the top who's name IDK backwards and forwards! It's been many a year since it hasn't been Fedalovic or Murray for a few minutes! :whistle:

 

[Moxie]

How many times do I have to say today's players are a lot better in skill, physical fitness, and work ethic? The problem is between the ears obviously since these good players can't seem to finish no matter the lead when it really counts! Fedalovic have to be way off like Sunday when Roger couldn't find the court or Rafa couldn't find his way to London! Nole had little to no problem with the biggest server on the tour! It's just amazing to see how effortless it was for him to straight set Isner! I will try to be patient, but I'm old and won't be around forever! I need to see someone at the top who's name IDK backwards and forwards! It's been many a year since it hasn't been Fedalovic or Murray for a few minutes! :whistle:

You're not wrong to say that the problem is between the ears with some players, though I'd say some of it is also work ethic with others. But I don't see why you blame the great players who capitalize on the weakness of others. Why not reserve your animus for the ones who fail, time and again? (Also, you're a self-described Djokovic fan, so it's not like you're completely ccommitted to the next wave.) You have a lot of choice words for Federer and Nadal. Why don't you slag off Dimitrov, who, if you ask me, is the poster child for Lost Gen and wasted talent? At least Nishikori and Raonic have some excuse with injury. Don't blame the really talented guys for taking the opportunities on offer. Blame Kyrgios, as another option. Or Tomic. Remember him? Or Gasquet or Sock or Tsonga or Fognini or Monfils or Bagdahtis or Gulbis or Janowicz or Dolgopolov...I could go on. I think your anger is misplaced.

 

[Fiero425]

You're not wrong to say that the problem is between the ears with some players, though I'd say some of it is also work ethic with others. But I don't see why you blame the great players who capitalize on the weakness of others. Why not reserve your animus for the ones who fail, time and again? (Also, you're a self-described Djokovic fan, so it's not like you're completely ccommitted to the next wave.) You have a lot of choice words for Federer and Nadal. Why don't you slag off Dimitrov, who, if you ask me, is the poster child for Lost Gen and wasted talent? At least Nishikori and Raonic have some excuse with injury, and a certain vanilla-ness. Don't blame the really talented guys for taking the opportunities on offer. Blame Kyrgios, as another option. Or Tomic, for example. Remember him? I think your anger is misplaced.

I have ragged on all those players and more! How many times have I invoked the description of "gutless?" That's the problem, all of them have excuses and it's just frustrating! I do have a soft spot for Nole since he's had to overcome so much in comparison to Fedal who had more support and accommodation! I'm sure they didn't have to skip over landmines, worry about their next meal, or have to worry about their parents being killed in the street! Djokovic also had to deal with the obvious impediments of Fedal who almost made him a perpetual 3rd placer until he came into his own in 2011! I'm giving him another couple seasons before giving him the boot as well as Roger and Rafa! I didn't cry when he lost that Paris Masters to KK! I'd be more disappointed if he were to drop this YEC he needs to overtake Federer! I will take each tourney as it comes and try not to put it in the win column before it a done deal! :whistle:

 

[El Dude]

You're not wrong to say that the problem is between the ears with some players, though I'd say some of it is also work ethic with others. But I don't see why you blame the great players who capitalize on the weakness of others. Why not reserve your animus for the ones who fail, time and again? (Also, you're a self-described Djokovic fan, so it's not like you're completely ccommitted to the next wave.) You have a lot of choice words for Federer and Nadal. Why don't you slag off Dimitrov, who, if you ask me, is the poster child for Lost Gen and wasted talent? At least Nishikori and Raonic have some excuse with injury. Don't blame the really talented guys for taking the opportunities on offer. Blame Kyrgios, as another option. Or Tomic. Remember him? Or Gasquet or Sock or Tsonga or Fognini or Monfils or Bagdahtis or Gulbis or Janowicz or Dolgopolov...I could go on. I think your anger is misplaced.

Right. It is silly to blame the Three for being as good as they are and sticking around. It isn't like Roger is doing a Hewitt or, worse yet, 90s version Wilander. He's still #3 at age 37; as a trio they're still 1-3, and all were #1 at one point this year!

The real disappointment, as you say, is Lost Gen. And I agree that Dimitrov is the poster child, because he's the most talented player (in my opinion) born between 1989-94, bookended by Cilic/del Potro in 1988 and Kyrgios in 1995.

I still think Thiem will win at least one RG. We'll see Rafa and Novak there the next year or two, maybe three, but then Thiem will still have some good years in him to go against Zverev and whoever comes up next as good on clay.

Anyhow, I think there's a chance one of these young gents sneaks in a Slam next year. I hope! If not 2019 then I would think 2020 at the latest.

 

[Moxie]

I have ragged on all those players and more! How many times have I invoked the description of "gutless?" That's the problem, all of them have excuses and it's just frustrating! I do have a soft spot for Nole since he's had to overcome so much in comparison to Fedal who had more support and accommodation! I'm sure they didn't have to skip over landmines, worry about their next meal, or have to worry about their parents being killed in the street! Djokovic also had to deal with the obvious impediments of Fedal who almost made him a perpetual 3rd placer until he came into his own in 2011! I'm giving him another couple seasons before giving him the boot as well as Roger and Rafa! I didn't cry when he lost that Paris Masters to KK! I'd be more disappointed if he were to drop this YEC he needs to overtake Federer! I will take each tourney as it comes and try not to put it in the win column before it a done deal! :whistle:

It's true that you have called much of the otherwise tennis world "gutless," but I do think you should remember where the blame lies. I do understand your falling in with Novak's story. It is compelling. He's overcome a lot, not least of things just to shoehorn himself in a tennis world already divided between Roger and Rafa. And you do champion the youngsters when they win. I still think it's misplaced of you to slag off Roger and Rafa so much, but it's your right, and you are Fiero, after all. It would be weird, I guess, if your outrage level weren't always at an 11, along with the emoticons.

 

[Moxie]

Right. It is silly to blame the Three for being as good as they are and sticking around. It isn't like Roger is doing a Hewitt or, worse yet, 90s version Wilander. He's still #3 at age 37; as a trio they're still 1-3, and all were #1 at one point this year!

The real disappointment, as you say, is Lost Gen. And I agree that Dimitrov is the poster child, because he's the most talented player (in my opinion) born between 1989-94, bookended by Cilic/del Potro in 1988 and Kyrgios in 1995.

I still think Thiem will win at least one RG. We'll see Rafa and Novak there the next year or two, maybe three, but then Thiem will still have some good years in him to go against Zverev and whoever comes up next as good on clay.

Anyhow, I think there's a chance one of these young gents sneaks in a Slam next year. I hope! If not 2019 then I would think 2020 at the latest.

Maybe this is me being a Nadal fan, but I'm not necessarily capping Thiem for RG. He's generally good, and does best on clay, but I don't see him as the top guy at the end of the European clay season, necessarily, and I don't just mean next year. Perhaps this is because he tends to over-play. Maybe he should aim for it. If he doesn't, I think he diffuses his energies too much. He plays a lot, and tends to do mostly well, then falls off a bit, but doesn't peak for the main events. For sure he'll be like 3rd choice for RG next year, but if I were to say the next one to win that's not Rafa or Novak, I'd pick Tsitsipas or Sasha over him. That's mostly gut feeling. But unless he targets it, I think someone else would get him before the end at RG.

 

[El Dude]

Maybe this is me being a Nadal fan, but I'm not necessarily capping Thiem for RG. He's generally good, and does best on clay, but I don't see him as the top guy at the end of the European clay season, necessarily, and I don't just mean next year. Perhaps this is because he tends to over-play. Maybe he should aim for it. If he doesn't, I think he diffuses his energies too much. He plays a lot, and tends to do mostly well, then falls off a bit, but doesn't peak for the main events. For sure he'll be like 3rd choice for RG next year, but if I were to say the next one to win that's not Rafa or Novak, I'd pick Tsitsipas or Sasha over him. That's mostly gut feeling. But unless he targets it, I think someone else would get him before the end at RG.

I don't disagree with you. So far it seems Zverev and Thiem are the best young clay players, other than Rafa and Novak, of course. Hard to say about Tsitsipas as he came on strong last year after clay season, but I suspect his game will play well everywhere. He's really become the young gun to watch, it seems.

But honestly, how long can we expect Rafa to hold his crown? He's going to be 33 next year I know Roger won three more starting at age 35, but we have to assume that's an outlier until proven otherwise. I'm guessing he won't win 3 of 4 big clay titles next year. Maybe 2.

But we're in uncharted territory, so who knows.

 

[Horsa]

Everyone has kind of forgotten Murray for the moment. Murray's trouble with Roger can't be explained? Oh, I think it can. As can Murray's win in London OG 2012. Fed fans say that Roger was gassed, but I think there was a lot to be said for the British public embracing him, finally, and him getting in under the painful British press radar, too, to win that Gold.

I haven't forgotten about Murray but I've been busy doing other things & speaking about other things.

 

[Moxie]

I don't disagree with you. So far it seems Zverev and Thiem are the best young clay players, other than Rafa and Novak, of course. Hard to say about Tsitsipas as he came on strong last year after clay season, but I suspect his game will play well everywhere. He's really become the young gun to watch, it seems.

But honestly, how long can we expect Rafa to hold his crown? He's going to be 33 next year I know Roger won three more starting at age 35, but we have to assume that's an outlier until proven otherwise. I'm guessing he won't win 3 of 4 big clay titles next year. Maybe 2.

But we're in uncharted territory, so who knows.

I know that Rafa can't keep winning it forever. Nor Novak, though I'd have him wildly favored over everyone else, after Nadal. I'm really just talking about Thiem, and I think the expectation is a bit over-determined. If he focused on the clay season, I might change my mind. But if he keeps playing everything in sight, as he has done, he's not my pick for the next new RG winner. BTW, I'm not talking about 2019.

 

[Denis]

Zverev looks ridiculous with all that blingbling around his neck.

 

[Denis]

I know that Rafa can't keep winning it forever. Nor Novak, though I'd have him wildly favored over everyone else, after Nadal. I'm really just talking about Thiem, and I think the expectation is a bit over-determined. If he focused on the clay season, I might change my mind. But if he keeps playing everything in sight, as he has done, he's not my pick for the next new RG winner. BTW, I'm not talking about 2019.

I expect Nadal to win most of the RG titles in the coming 4-5 years if not all of them.

 

[DarthFed]

I expect Nadal to win most of the RG titles in the coming 4-5 years if not all of them.

God I hope not. That might be enough to convince me to go skydiving without a parachute.

 

[DarthFed]

Maybe this is me being a Nadal fan, but I'm not necessarily capping Thiem for RG. He's generally good, and does best on clay, but I don't see him as the top guy at the end of the European clay season, necessarily, and I don't just mean next year. Perhaps this is because he tends to over-play. Maybe he should aim for it. If he doesn't, I think he diffuses his energies too much. He plays a lot, and tends to do mostly well, then falls off a bit, but doesn't peak for the main events. For sure he'll be like 3rd choice for RG next year, but if I were to say the next one to win that's not Rafa or Novak, I'd pick Tsitsipas or Sasha over him. That's mostly gut feeling. But unless he targets it, I think someone else would get him before the end at RG.

I think the same about Thiem. I just can't hop on the bandwagon even on clay where he is very good but not great. I feel like the last couple of years have been misleading. Sure he has been the 2nd best on clay but that was with Novak, Stan, and Murray struggling with injuries and Roger no longer playing on clay. It's like the guy was set up to be the 5th or 6th best clay courter but got bumped up to #2. I think the other youngsters will catch up to him on clay before he is able to win one.