ATP Injury/ fitness thread

[Moxie]

No. Fed is quite normal. If you want to claim that Rafa has been more injury prone than an average player, I think I will agree with that.
However, that does not make Fed "lucky" with respect to health and injuries.

It's been snowing all day here, and we're homebound, so I'm going to debate the point with you that Federer is "normal," in terms of injury issues. While not unique in his health, he seems to be on the high-end of it, and not average. I've looked at a lot of players in the top 50, across eras that Federer has played in. Here is what I find:

Federer: From 1999-2013, no injury was cited to cause a withdrawal. One mention of a foot issue v. Nalbandian in 2005, which he played through. Some back issues, starting in 2013. Knee surgery 2016.

Players who have had relatively similar health to Federer:
F. Lopez: Ankle, foot, no surgery
I. Karlovic: foot, knee (no surgery?)
R. Stepanek: Neck (no surgery)
V. Troicki: Foot, elbow (no surgery)
F. Fognini: Withdrew once from RG with injury
S. Wawrinka: Back, knee surgery
S. Querrey: Elbow surgery, ankle
J. Isner: Ankle, knee (no surgery)
P. Sampras: 12 years without
F. Verdasco: Not much

Players who have had more injury issues than Federer (the obvious ones I won't illuminate):

G. Kuerten
L. Hewitt
M. Safin
D. Nalbandian
T. Haas
JC Ferrero
A. Roddick: shoulder, neck, back, ankle, knee, hamstring
T. Berdych: hip, thigh, back, shoulder, groin
R. Nadal
A. Murray
N. Djokovic: you could put him in either category, except for all of the early retirements
J. Tipsarevic
T. Robredo
D. Ferrer: hamstring, shoulder, wrist, leg, elbow
M. Cilic: arm, shoulder, abductor
K. Nishikori
M. Raonic
T. Kokkinakis
N. Kyrgios
D. Tursanov
JW Tsonga
G. Monfils
R. Gasquet
JM del Potro
M. Baghdatis: elbow, knee, shoulder, finger, calf, groin

It's a bit of a random sampling, but wouldn't you say that Roger comes out rather on the sunny-side of above average for injuries?

 

[El Dude]

I agree that Roger has been healthier than normal, but disagree that it is mostly because of luck or good genes, or even that those are factors at all. Let me illustrate.

I have no idea how one would assign ratios, but I think there are at least five components to health:

*luck
*good genes
*training
*lifestyle
*play style

The first two are out of a player's control, but the latter three aren't. Roger has an immaculate training routine and resources, lives healthy, and has a smooth play style. Those two factors alone might account for his track record, with him not necessarily having better luck or genes than the average player.

 

[Federberg]

One mention of a foot issue v. Nalbandian in 2005, which he played through.

It was a bit more than that Moxie. It was well known that he was rehabilitating his ankle and he had not participated in preceding tournaments which was something new when he was in his pomp. There were questions about whether he would be able to make the WTF, and when other top players dropped out, he stepped up. The implication at the time was very clear, if all the other top guys had participated in that WTF he would not have been there.

 

[mrzz]

Wasn't there a match against Murray in 2007's WTF where Federer was clearly injured?

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Fed had to withdraw against Stan in WTF finals due to back issues.

 

[Moxie]

Fed had to withdraw against Stan in WTF finals due to back issues.

I thought that he beat Stan then gave Djokovic the W/O in the final. I did mention the on-going back issues since 2013, btw. That was supposed to blanket cover.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

I thought that he beat Stan then gave Djokovic the W/O in the final. I did mention the on-going back issues since 2013, btw. That was supposed to blanket cover.

Oh, yes. I got the sequence of events mixed. He beat Stan in a long match and then gave WO to Novak in the finals.

In that case, Nadal has just one minor issue. He had on-going knee issues since he was 15.

 

[Moxie]

Oh, yes. I got the sequence of events mixed. He beat Stan in a long match and then gave WO to Novak in the finals.

In that case, Nadal has just one minor issue. He had on-going knee issues since he was 15.

How could you forget? That was the one where Mirka called Stan a crybaby, I think.

Rafa: foot defect, shoulder kept him from another RG before he ever got tendinitis...in both knees. Wrist. It was the wrist that shut down his year in 2014, IIRC. Groin. Whatever the leg thing is now.

 

[Federberg]

Wasn't there a match against Murray in 2007's WTF where Federer was clearly injured?

I believe there was. Think it was a corker of a match as well if I'm remembering the right one. Murray killed himself to win when he had already qualified. It basically cost him any chance of winning the whole thing. Idiot...

 

[Moxie]

I agree that Roger has been healthier than normal, but disagree that it is mostly because of luck or good genes, or even that those are factors at all. Let me illustrate.

I have no idea how one would assign ratios, but I think there are at least five components to health:

*luck
*good genes
*training
*lifestyle
*play style

The first two are out of a player's control, but the latter three aren't. Roger has an immaculate training routine and resources, lives healthy, and has a smooth play style. Those two factors alone might account for his track record, with him not necessarily having better luck or genes than the average player.

I think I've said that luck/good genes/playing style are all in there. All I ever wanted anyone to do is admit that Roger is healthier than normal, so thanks for that.

 

[The_Grand_Slam]

The notion that Roger is lucky with injuries is really absurd

In fact he has had terrible luck with injuries/illnesses

 

[Moxie]

The notion that Roger is lucky with injuries is really absurd

In fact he has had terrible luck with injuries/illnesses

Everyone's unlucky to be hurt, mate.

 

[DarthFed]

I think I've said that luck/good genes/playing style are all in there. All I ever wanted anyone to do is admit that Roger is healthier than normal, so thanks for that.

You just won't give up. You want everyone to say Roger is lucky and Rafa is unlucky and that's why the former has had the greater career. Then when we bring up style of play we are "moralizing". I put it like this, if Roger had the physicality of Rafa he'd pretty much never lose.

 

[Moxie]

You just won't give up. You want everyone to say Roger is lucky and Rafa is unlucky and that's why the former has had the greater career. Then when we bring up style of play we are "moralizing". I put it like this, if Roger had the physicality of Rafa he'd pretty much never lose.

No, once again, you reduce my points to their simplest poles, and not in any way what I've said or intended. Re-read mrzz again. I've said that both luck and playing style/wear-and-tear thereby play some parts. But also that, no, it's not a question of moral superiority or inferiority in either direction. Also, though, by making that list, and since this is an injury thread, I thought it brought up some other questions, about other players.

 

[El Dude]

@Moxie is right that Roger has been healthier than the average player. But as I said above, luck may or may not have anything to do with it. His health is likely mostly determined by other factors that are within his control.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

It's been snowing all day here, and we're homebound, so I'm going to debate the point with you that Federer is "normal," in terms of injury issues.

Fortunately, no snow at my place. But, this means I won't have time to continue this pointless discussion with you anymore.

 

[Moxie]

Fortunately, no snow at my place. But, this means I won't have time to continue this pointless discussion with you anymore.

It's an injury thread. And no one obligates you, GSM.

 

[Moxie]

I agree that Roger has been healthier than normal, but disagree that it is mostly because of luck or good genes, or even that those are factors at all. Let me illustrate.

I have no idea how one would assign ratios, but I think there are at least five components to health:

*luck
*good genes
*training
*lifestyle
*play style

The first two are out of a player's control, but the latter three aren't. Roger has an immaculate training routine and resources, lives healthy, and has a smooth play style. Those two factors alone might account for his track record, with him not necessarily having better luck or genes than the average player.

OK, now, forgetting about Roger, do you see any patterns? As I said, my list is by no means exhaustive. However, addressing your notion of "training," I don't think there are that many slackers on the list. (Safin, Nalbandian and Kyrgios would be notable on that front.) But a lot of those more-often injured players have notably good work ethics. Certainly there aren't recognizable playboys, etc., like the old days. Another thing that jumped out at me: Some people around here, when talking of young players, like to say that the taller players have a tendency to be often injured. But the tall guys end up on both sides of the line. There are a lot of big servers on the happy side of the average injury line, as would be expected. However, del Potro and Raonic are below it, and both have huge serves.

Of your list, I'd say perhaps "lifestyle" is not that germane to today's tennis. Most players take their jobs seriously, and live healthfully and train hard.

 

[El Dude]

^In other words, you really want to whittle it down to Roger having a special dose of luck that Rafa doesn't have .

 

[Moxie]

^In other words, you really want to whittle it down to Roger having a special dose of luck that Rafa doesn't have .

That is never what I've tried to say. (You're all paranoid bastards. :lulz2 Why are you all being so harsh on me? I'm trying to discuss the topic at hand. I had moved on to larger injury notions. If you're not interested, that's fine.