ATP Injury/ fitness thread

[El Dude]

Haha, to quote Stripes: "Lighten up, Francis."

I'm just jerking your chain.

Although, let's be honest...you do like to stir the pot. Most of us do, in one way or another, although some more than others

 

[Moxie]

Haha, to quote Stripes: "Lighten up, Francis."

I'm just jerking your chain.

Although, let's be honest...you do like to stir the pot. Most of us do, in one way or another, although some more than others

I do like to stir the pot. But everyone was jerking my chain on this particular issue. (Even if I don't have one. ) I just responded. Now, back to your regularly scheduled injury thread.

 

[Federberg]

OK, now, forgetting about Roger, do you see any patterns? As I said, my list is by no means exhaustive. However, addressing your notion of "training," I don't think there are that many slackers on the list. (Safin, Nalbandian and Kyrgios would be notable on that front.) But a lot of those more-often injured players have notably good work ethics. Certainly there aren't recognizable playboys, etc., like the old days. Another thing that jumped out at me: Some people around here, when talking of young players, like to say that the taller players have a tendency to be often injured. But the tall guys end up on both sides of the line. There are a lot of big servers on the happy side of the average injury line, as would be expected. However, del Potro and Raonic are below it, and both have huge serves.

Of your list, I'd say perhaps "lifestyle" is not that germane to today's tennis. Most players take their jobs seriously, and live healthfully and train hard.

The problem with any attempt at proper analysis is that we are missing so much real intelligence on this issue for the simple reason that players don't often want to disclose when they're injured/ impaired. A more pertinent starting point for a discussion, in my view, would be how much of a difference should be assigned to a players injury record because they withdraw versus playing on? This is the huge misunderstanding in my view regarding some of the top players. As an example Federer's 2013 will show that he was there playing, but I think we all know that he was impaired with his back injury. This is no woulda coulda from me, as I'm not trying to assign more positive outcomes for him, but the fact is the idea that he has these good genes and is very lucky overlooks the fact that he most probably has played a heck of a lot of tournaments in far from optimal condition when withdrawals would have made more sense

I rather suspect that Federer's recent come back might have tilted decision making towards more withdrawals for the sake of rehabilitation in future. Whether that actually works for others is yet to be seen, but the calculation is that it probably increases a players longevity to do so

 

[Moxie]

So you're saying the conversation is flawed because we're not talking about the injuries that players play on with that we don't much know about? I don't think I'm clear as to your point.

 

[Federberg]

So you're saying the conversation is flawed because we're not talking about the injuries that players play on with that we don't much know about? I don't think I'm clear as to your point.

not flawed, but missing a big chunk of the debate. In fact by far the most common component in my view

 

[Moxie]

But how can we accurately add that to the discussion if the athletes, as you say, don't discuss this regularly or reliably?

 

[Federberg]

Either speculate or abandon the luck narrative

 

[Moxie]

Either speculate or abandon the luck narrative

I never made a narrative out of "luck." I said it was in the mix, which a lot of people agree with. You've made an entire narrative about Federer's playing through back issues. I don't know who else you have in mind, so I don't know how to speculate on them. As far as I can tell, you just wanted to say again that Roger has had chronic back issues, and has played through them. I copped to that fully. Nadal has chronic knee tendinitis and also plays through pain. Not the same as injury that halts your play. Who else do you think carries injury that plays through, and so seems "less injured" to the viewing public? Also, as many say, if you've deemed yourself fit to play, then that's the answer. I'm still not sure what your point is, other than tailor-making one that fits mostly only Roger.

 

[Federberg]

I never made a narrative out of "luck." I said it was in the mix, which a lot of people agree with. You've made an entire narrative about Federer's playing through back issues. I don't know who else you have in mind, so I don't know how to speculate on them. As far as I can tell, you just wanted to say again that Roger has had chronic back issues, and has played through them. I copped to that fully. Nadal has chronic knee tendinitis and also plays through pain. Not the same as injury that halts your play. Who else do you think carries injury that plays through, and so seems "less injured" to the viewing public? Also, as many say, if you've deemed yourself fit to play, then that's the answer. I'm still not sure what your point is, other than tailor-making one that fits mostly only Roger.

It's only in the mix because you fought so hard to make it so To a very large extent you make your own luck. Or perhaps more accurately your own bad luck. So I'm rather sceptical about the whole luck narrative, that's just a lazy conclusion to my mind.

As you well know I'm a big subscriber of the "if you're fit enough, then fans shouldn't whine", but it's not stopped you from making excuses over the years has it? I can see why you might think that the impairment issue might be related to Roger, but I'm sorry you're wrong. It's just a fact that the bulk of injuries are not deemed sufficient to necessitate withdrawals. Never-the-less those injuries do exist and unquestionably result in players achieving sub-optimal results. I'm surprised this is news to you, I thought you were an experienced student of professional sports

 

[Moxie]

It's only in the mix because you fought so hard to make it so To a very large extent you make your own luck. Or perhaps more accurately your own bad luck. So I'm rather sceptical about the whole luck narrative, that's just a lazy conclusion to my mind.

As you well know I'm a big subscriber of the "if you're fit enough, then fans shouldn't whine", but it's not stopped you from making excuses over the years has it? I can see why you might think that the impairment issue might be related to Roger, but I'm sorry you're wrong. It's just a fact that the bulk of injuries are not deemed sufficient to necessitate withdrawals. Never-the-less those injuries do exist and unquestionably result in players achieving sub-optimal results. I'm surprised this is news to you, I thought you were an experienced student of professional sports

We are not understanding each other because I don't quite understand your premise on your latest, which I've asked you to illuminate. I DO understand that players play with aches and pains all the time. They use their bodies for a living. They train/play most days out of the year. I've said as much over the years. (Including to you, who refuses to believe that there was anything wrong with Nadal at that RG we fight about, but then, you say, clearly Fed was hindered by his back in 2013. I've never said he wasn't, and I've said so on this thread.) Those who choose to understand what I mean by "luck" have. I don't mean it as a diminishment. But anyway, I'm prepared to retire it from this thread.

 

[isabelle]

Sir Andy back on a practice court , really happy for him

 

[Horsa]

Sir Andy back on a practice court , really happy for him

Me too. Good luck to him!

 

[Federberg]

We are not understanding each other because I don't quite understand your premise on your latest, which I've asked you to illuminate. I DO understand that players play with aches and pains all the time. They use their bodies for a living. They train/play most days out of the year. I've said as much over the years. (Including to you, who refuses to believe that there was anything wrong with Nadal at that RG we fight about, but then, you say, clearly Fed was hindered by his back in 2013. I've never said he wasn't, and I've said so on this thread.) Those who choose to understand what I mean by "luck" have. I don't mean it as a diminishment. But anyway, I'm prepared to retire it from this thread.

I'm not really sure what's so difficult to understand about what I'm saying here. First of all, I'm tempted to set aside the Fedal discussion here, that's not really the point I'm raising here, and clearly we're not going to agree on that. But what the hey, I'll come back to it later.

If we are going to have a discussion about injuries and fitness, we can't focus exclusively on injuries, i.e., those situations that take a player out of the game. I'll stipulate my belief that if you feel well enough to play then it's essentially on your head. Let's not kid ourselves, these guys are pressured to play because of endorsements, rankings points, prize money etc, so there's precious little sympathy that needs to be doled out to them. But for the very same reason these guys will often play carrying injuries that effectively put to question their fitness. This needn't have been relevant but for your persisting in continuing your narrative that Nadal is unlucky or Federer is lucky. Just because you continue playing doesn't mean that you're fully fit. Who is more lucky, a player who gets injured and takes time out, comes back after having re-attained peak fitness or one who over the same period is forging on despite persistent injuries that don't rise to the level that all the forces pressuring them to play aren't overwhelmed? After seeing how both Federer and Nadal were able to come back from extended lay offs and achieve great success, while Novak may well have been carrying on with an injury. Look at them all now? Who's the "lucky" one? Perhaps no one's lucky at all where decision are concerned. Speaking about luck and decisions, for years, Rafa clearly worked on his upper body, don't know whether it was vanity or an attempt at peak conditioning, but I'll wager it's been a contributing factor to a lot of his injuries. Is that luck or his decision making?

Now going back to the eternal RG debate. I'm not sure why you chose to bring that up here. I reject the suggestion that Rafa was injured against Soderling, because I watched the match. I also watched the preceding match where Rafa tore through Hewitt. I saw no sign of impairment. What I saw was a once in a blue moon match in which the conditions were perfect for Soderling and Rafa played tight. He hit short balls. He's not the Flash, if you hit short balls against a bone crusher you aren't going to be able to defend it. It's really that simple. I really wish you wouldn't persist in this narrative that for Rafa to lose at RG something has to be wrong with him. Don't you see how absurd it is?

Now on to your attempt at an equivalence regarding 2013. I really don't understand the point you're making. The only possible refutation would have been if Roger hadn't recovered his form in the succeeding years, but he did. Whether you choose to believe he had a back injury or not is quite beside the point. Besides I think you actually believe he was impaired. I don't think I need to go into some of the absurd losses that year, we both lived through it

 

[Moxie]

@Federberg: I think we're talking across each other. You don't believe my points here are anything but fannish defense of Nadal. So I'd prefer not to derail your thread any longer with this back-and-forth. I think it's an interesting thread, and there are many things worth discussing here. But I'm sure we're boring everyone else to tears with this.

 

[isabelle]

according to l'Equipe, Sir Andy'll be back in s'Hertogenbosh (grass)

 

[isabelle]

2nd knee surgery for Jowil yesterday, everything went well, don't know when he'll be back

 

[herios]

2nd knee surgery for Jowil yesterday, everything went well, don't know when he'll be back

Tsonga is most likely done as a big contender.
Weak knees + big body = bad combination

 

[DarthFed]

2nd knee surgery for Jowil yesterday, everything went well, don't know when he'll be back

I didn't know it was that bad. Hope he gets back soon.

 

[Carol]

 

[the AntiPusher]

Doesnt sounds like it too serious..seems like a little clean up procedure. JowillieTs will be back by this time next Month...