Another angle on comparing tennis greats (with a pretty chart)

[El Dude]

@Moxie , I was serving five people, so made three pizzas: One with portabello mushrooms and onions; the second with broccoli, asparagus, onions and kalamata olives, the third with turkey pepperoni and green peppers. All with a combination of fresh and shredded shredded mozzarella and parmesan, and with homemade dough and sauce with fresh basil. I also often make pesto pizza with boursin and other variants.

@don_fabio , I really want to get such an oven - I have dreamed of a clay oven, and without a high heat oven there's a cap on how good you can make your pizza. I'll have to bite the bullet at some point and buy one.

 

[Moxie]

Kudos for both of you and El Dude for making pizza at home. Ordering has become too expensive and it's just more fun to make it yourself. We used to bake it in a conventional electric oven, but recently bought a portable gas oven (similar to Ooni Koda 12") and it's honestly a game changer. Pizza is done in less than 2 minutes due to much higher temperature inside and taste like you bought it from napolitan pizza place. We always make dough at least 1 day ahead, but usually 2-3 days before and let it sit in a fridge. It turns out great.

I once started a food thread, or recipe thread, but it got no traction. Long time ago. Maybe we should try again. But if no one minds, (and since this IS El Dude's thread,) maybe we can just "pepper" it in, once in awhile. (Sorry for the pun.)

I have a gas oven, which I agree is great for pizza. I was going to get a pizza stone, though, which is supposed to make a nice crispy crust. I use a metal baking sheet, though, and preheat it for about 20 minutes. That works well.

I totally agree that pizza is fun and easy to make at home, especially.with kids. They love pizza, and they love helping. It's MUCH cheaper to make yourself. (A pizza in NYC can cost $25, easily, and it's never as hot.) I have to admit that I don't make my own dough, because Trader Joe's has a nice one for a little over $1. I've played with different pizza sauces. My brother insists that you don't cook the tomato paste one before. I've tried that, but it's a little too sweet for me.

As Goran said, even in the offseason Novak had hard time to motivate himself. I can imagine how it is now, when a few months have passed and couple of coaches left. Where is his hitting partner btw, that spanish fella, he is missing too? He seems to be homesick, wants to spend too much time with his family and that doesn't work well for the pro athlete.

I don't know who that Spanish hitting partner is. But I'm not surprised about the motivation revelation. He's got a motivation at this RG, given that he's defending, and with Sinner playing, he's likely to lose his #1 ranking. Even if he does, he gains points the longer he stays in, which would keep him close. On the other hand, is the form there? And is the motivation really there? He's got the record weeks at #1, which he should keep for a long time. Along with lots of other records.

 

[Moxie]

@Moxie , I was serving five people, so made three pizzas: One with portabello mushrooms and onions; the second with broccoli, asparagus, onions and kalamata olives, the third with turkey pepperoni and green peppers. All with a combination of fresh and shredded shredded mozzarella and parmesan, and with homemade dough and sauce with fresh basil. I also often make pesto pizza with boursin and other variants.

@don_fabio , I really want to get such an oven - I have dreamed of a clay oven, and without a high heat oven there's a cap on how good you can make your pizza. I'll have to bite the bullet at some point and buy one.

Those all sound great! Do you cook the portobellos and onions before? I make a lot of pesto, of all kinds, and do make pesto pizza. Sometimes white pizza.

Thanks for the pizza chat!

 

[Moxie]

Yes, he won 3 Slams after, but I think 2019 was the peak of his late career surge. I think he was better in 2017-19 than he was in 2020-22.

I'm rewatching his match v. Novak at RG 2022 to gird myself for tomorrow. I think you should rethink if he was lesser, post 2019. You like to make a lot of how dominant Novak has been, but you seem to skip over when he's not, or when Rafa has capped him, including blitzing him in 2020 at the autumn RG, and outplaying him in this one I'm watching now. I can understand how you might not revisit matches where Rafa has beaten Novak, but if you're going to make certain claims, perhaps you should. You can "think" that Rafa was better in 2017-19 than he was in 2020-22, but you should watch some of his matches v. Novak again. Because those are the ones that matter.

 

[Fiero425]

I'm rewatching his match v. Novak at RG 2022 to gird myself for tomorrow. I think you should rethink if he was lesser, post 2019. You like to make a lot of how dominant Novak has been, but you seem to skip over when he's not, or when Rafa has capped him, including blitzing him in 2020 at the autumn RG, and outplaying him in this one I'm watching now. I can understand how you might not revisit matches where Rafa has beaten Novak, but if you're going to make certain claims, perhaps you should. You can "think" that Rafa was better in 2017-19 than he was in 2020-22, but you should watch some of his matches v. Novak again. Because those are the ones that matter.

The obsession continues! Some feel the need to elevate Nadal and then undermine the record of Novak! It's a vicious cycle of TROLLING!

 

[Moxie]

The obsession continues! Some feel the need to elevate Nadal and then undermine the record of Novak! It's a vicious cycle of TROLLING!

How is it "trolling" when I post about a match that Novak lost? I'm making a point to El Dude, in the course of an on-going conversation. If you can't stand it that Novak has actually lost matches, that Nadal has had a very equivalent career, the obsession is yours. You're the one who trolls Nadal fans. You're a hater. Face it.

 

[the AntiPusher]

I'm rewatching his match v. Novak at RG 2022 to gird myself for tomorrow. I think you should rethink if he was lesser, post 2019. You like to make a lot of how dominant Novak has been, but you seem to skip over when he's not, or when Rafa has capped him, including blitzing him in 2020 at the autumn RG, and outplaying him in this one I'm watching now. I can understand how you might not revisit matches where Rafa has beaten Novak, but if you're going to make certain claims, perhaps you should. You can "think" that Rafa was better in 2017-19 than he was in 2020-22, but you should watch some of his matches v. Novak again. Because those are the ones that matter.

Great point Moxie. I have learned to accept @El Dude El Dude perspective better because he has tried to be as fair as "he can" in regards to Rafa's game. Rafa to most of my Fed fan friends is the guy who got in their champion's path towards immortally with a playing style that's just not pleasing to their eyes. However, they're being a bit blindsided because if you watch the your attached video look at the level of skill Rafa displayed around the net. My LORD is just as good as Roger ever was and Novak never will have the confidence in his hands in the front court and around the net. Rafa raised his game to Roger's prime level but since he was dethroned by Nadal it's easier to acknowledge Novak's titles than Rafa's brilliance. I think I'm pretty fair and accurate about this one.

 

[El Dude]

I'm rewatching his match v. Novak at RG 2022 to gird myself for tomorrow. I think you should rethink if he was lesser, post 2019. You like to make a lot of how dominant Novak has been, but you seem to skip over when he's not, or when Rafa has capped him, including blitzing him in 2020 at the autumn RG, and outplaying him in this one I'm watching now. I can understand how you might not revisit matches where Rafa has beaten Novak, but if you're going to make certain claims, perhaps you should. You can "think" that Rafa was better in 2017-19 than he was in 2020-22, but you should watch some of his matches v. Novak again. Because those are the ones that matter.

I think we're operating under different definitions. I'm not saying he wasn't able to rise to high levels in 2022 - obviously, he won two Slams. But he was less consistent, and faded in the second half. He was more consistent in 2017-19.

Anyhow, it isn't really an important point either way - not sure why you're returning to this. It isn't a knock on Rafa. And he was great in 2022, I just think his overall level slipped a bit after 2019 (or maybe after 2020, as it was messed up by Covid and hard to say).

 

[Moxie]

I think we're operating under different definitions. I'm not saying he wasn't able to rise to high levels in 2022 - obviously, he won two Slams. But he was less consistent, and faded in the second half. He was more consistent in 2017-19.

Anyhow, it isn't really an important point either way - not sure why you're returning to this. It isn't a knock on Rafa. And he was great in 2022, I just think his overall level slipped a bit after 2019 (or maybe after 2020, as it was messed up by Covid and hard to say).

What AP is saying above is that, however much you try to be fair, you don't grade Rafa on the same curve. It's a natural prejudice, from your years as a Federer fan. It's OK, I get it. But you need to, too. You always give Rafa the demerit. The prejudice leaks out, occasionally. The scars that Rafa left on Roger's fans run deep. You "sort of" give credit where due, but usually find a diss. I don't know that we're defining things differently, but appreciating them differently.

 

[El Dude]

What AP is saying above is that, however much you try to be fair, you don't grade Rafa on the same curve. It's a natural prejudice, from your years as a Federer fan. It's OK, I get it. But you need to, too. You always give Rafa the demerit. The prejudice leaks out, occasionally. The scars that Rafa left on Roger's fans run deep. You "sort of" give credit where due, but usually find a diss. I don't know that we're defining things differently, but appreciating them differently.

This is a weird take, Moxie, because really you're getting it backwards. Or rather, you are (mis)interpreting what I'm saying as a subtle dig at Rafa - and I think because you're always on the defensive about him, due to years of tussling with Federer and Novak fans.

To explain, I am grading Rafa on a different curve than anyone else - or rather, everyone else but Novak and Roger. Meaning, the three are of a higher caliber, so what would be a career year for 99% of other players is sub-par for them, at least relative to their higher octaves.

Again, I'm "grading" Rafa in the exact same way I grade Roger and Novak. What you're misunderstanding as me giving a "demerit" is just me saying he has had higher levels of greatness. I'm saying he was better in 2017-19 than he was in 2020-22, and all you're hearing is that I'm saying is he was lesser in 2020-22...not sure how that's a "demerit."

 

[atttomole]

What AP is saying above is that, however much you try to be fair, you don't grade Rafa on the same curve. It's a natural prejudice, from your years as a Federer fan. It's OK, I get it. But you need to, too. You always give Rafa the demerit. The prejudice leaks out, occasionally. The scars that Rafa left on Roger's fans run deep. You "sort of" give credit where due, but usually find a diss. I don't know that we're defining things differently, but appreciating them differently.

Why do Rafa fans think they know what’s in the minds of Roger fans? A lot of Roger fans give Rafa credit for his tennis prowess. 14 titles at one major is one of the greatest achievements in tennis. Rafa had his own limitations, just like all tennis greats.

 

[shawnbm]

It will never end LOL! ^^^^^^

 

[the AntiPusher]

Why do Rafa fans think they know what’s in the minds of Roger fans? A lot of Roger fans give Rafa credit for his tennis prowess. 14 titles at one major is one of the greatest achievements in tennis. Rafa had his own limitations, just like all tennis greats.

Of course Rafa fans don't know how every Fed fan thinks about Roger rivalry against Rafa. Trust me, the Fed fans that I know of its very similar to the thoughts on this board .

 

[shawnbm]

Federer and Nadal had a different rivalry from Novak and Rafa. Rafa started off 6-1 over Roger, then Roger went 5-2 and all of this was in the first four years of the rivalry. Starting with 2009, Rafa went on a tear while Fed fell a bit for a few years and won only two more majors after 2009 until 2017. By 2-17, Nadal led 23-10, meaning Federer had only won only 3 times in seven yearsm, while Rafa won another 14 times over Fed, mostly on clay of course. Then in 2017 until retirement, Federer went 6-1 over Nadal and--fittingly in my view--Rafa last beat Roger in Paris on the terre batue in four sets and Roger returned the favor a few weeks later at SW19 in four sets on the grass. I like how that ended.

Meanwhile, Novak and Rafa, at least to me, seemed to be much more a see-saw thing over most years. Yes, there were times Novak lagged behind Rafa, and on clay naturally, but he leveled it and stayed right about even for many years and then slid by Rafa as the years went by. I simply can't recall with as much specificity as I do with Roger and Rafa.

 

[Fiero425]

Federer and Nadal had a different rivalry from Novak and Rafa. Rafa started off 6-1 over Roger, then Roger went 5-2 and all of this was in the first four years of the rivalry. Starting with 2009, Rafa went on a tear while Fed fell a bit for a few years and won only two more majors after 2009 until 2017. By 2-17, Nadal led 23-10, meaning Federer had only won only 3 times in seven years, while Rafa won another 14 times over Fed, mostly on clay of course. Then in 2017 until retirement, Federer went 6-1 over Nadal and--fittingly in my view--Rafa last beat Roger in Paris on the Terre battue in four sets and Roger returned the favor a few weeks later at SW19 in four sets on the grass. I like how that ended.

Meanwhile, Novak and Rafa, at least to me, seemed to be much more a see-saw thing over most years. Yes, there were times Novak lagged behind Rafa, and on clay naturally, but he leveled it and stayed right about even for many years and then slid by Rafa as the years went by. I simply can't recall with as much specificity as I do with Roger and Rafa.

OTTH, Novak was able to catch up & surpass Nadal in their H2H due to Djokovic having 2 winning streaks of 7 over Rafa! No other player comes close to accomplishing that including overcoming lead Roger had over him early on!

 

[Moxie]

This is a weird take, Moxie, because really you're getting it backwards. Or rather, you are (mis)interpreting what I'm saying as a subtle dig at Rafa - and I think because you're always on the defensive about him, due to years of tussling with Federer and Novak fans.

To explain, I am grading Rafa on a different curve than anyone else - or rather, everyone else but Novak and Roger. Meaning, the three are of a higher caliber, so what would be a career year for 99% of other players is sub-par for them, at least relative to their higher octaves.

Again, I'm "grading" Rafa in the exact same way I grade Roger and Novak. What you're misunderstanding as me giving a "demerit" is just me saying he has had higher levels of greatness. I'm saying he was better in 2017-19 than he was in 2020-22, and all you're hearing is that I'm saying is he was lesser in 2020-22...not sure how that's a "demerit."

It's not a "weird" take, it's my honest take.

 

[Moxie]

Federer and Nadal had a different rivalry from Novak and Rafa. Rafa started off 6-1 over Roger, then Roger went 5-2 and all of this was in the first four years of the rivalry. Starting with 2009, Rafa went on a tear while Fed fell a bit for a few years and won only two more majors after 2009 until 2017. By 2-17, Nadal led 23-10, meaning Federer had only won only 3 times in seven yearsm, while Rafa won another 14 times over Fed, mostly on clay of course. Then in 2017 until retirement, Federer went 6-1 over Nadal and--fittingly in my view--Rafa last beat Roger in Paris on the terre batue in four sets and Roger returned the favor a few weeks later at SW19 in four sets on the grass. I like how that ended.

Meanwhile, Novak and Rafa, at least to me, seemed to be much more a see-saw thing over most years. Yes, there were times Novak lagged behind Rafa, and on clay naturally, but he leveled it and stayed right about even for many years and then slid by Rafa as the years went by. I simply can't recall with as much specificity as I do with Roger and Rafa.

Yes, the rivalries and H2Hs are different. The closest Roger ever got to Rafa was 1-1, a tie, in their first two meetings. Rafa has always led.

It's misleading to say that Rafa and Novak have had more of a "seesaw" over the years, though I understand you say you can't recall. Novak was so far behind Rafa that, when, as @Fiero425 points out, he had 2 winning streaks of 7 matches against, he STILL didn't even the H2H. I'm sure he tied with Roger first, which I think was in 2015, and Rafa around then, too. I can't remember which one he got ahead for first, but both were around the same time. Pretty late-career for both, and obviously 2015 was a bad year for Rafa. But for all of the later-career beating up on Rafa, he's kept it to a difference of one match.

As a couple of people said today, the Rafa of yesterday might well have beaten the Novak of today. Who knows, but too bad he drew an in-form player, instead, if he was going to draw a seed.

 

[El Dude]

It's not a "weird" take, it's my honest take.

OK, but as I pointed out, it is a misinterpretation and illogical - which is why I said it was weird, because it is such a strange way to (mis)interpret. One more time: saying a player was lesser in year X than he was in year Y isn't being prejudiced against him or giving him a demerit. Just as saying Goldfinger was better than Thunderball isn't being prejudice against Sean Connery or James Bond. Thunderball was still really good, just not as good as Goldfinger.

 

[Moxie]

OK, but as I pointed out, it is a misinterpretation and illogical - which is why I said it was weird, because it is such a strange way to (mis)interpret. One more time: saying a player was lesser in year X than he was in year Y isn't being prejudiced against him or giving him a demerit. Just as saying Goldfinger was better than Thunderball isn't being prejudice against Sean Connery or James Bond. Thunderball was still really good, just not as good as Goldfinger.

That's a false equivalence. I can't even figure out where to go with it. If we all think that Sean Connery is the best Bond, how does it translate that Goldfinger is better than Thunderball (which it is,) in terms of the tennis? I'm all ears.

You also don't say, in the same way, that a player is lesser in year X than in year Y. Not in the same way. You give lots of credit to Federer's great years, and to Novak's. You have given Novak a bit of a pass for his walkabouts. Rafa, you credit only for on and off years. Is that completely fair?

What you don't get about your analysis of Rafa, in comparison to the others, is that you find a way to make it less. It's in the wording. In the organizing of the your statistics. I'm sorry to point this out again, but you made an entire post about who would end up with the most Majors...when Rafa had the most, at that time. You came up with about 4 options for Novak, but none for Rafa, which I pointed out to you. You did have to do a spit-take on that one. You like to think that you have no prejudices, but you do.

I like your take on tennis, and I love you as a friend. But when I tell you that you don't completely "get" Nadal, and that you have a certain prejudice when judging him, that comes from an honest place. Look at your resistance to Alcaraz. I get it, and you've as much as said it. Old scars.

 

[Fiero425]

OK, but as I pointed out, it is a misinterpretation and illogical - which is why I said it was weird, because it is such a strange way to (mis)interpret. One more time: saying a player was lesser in year X than he was in year Y isn't being prejudiced against him or giving him a demerit. Just as saying Goldfinger was better than Thunderball isn't being prejudice against Sean Connery or James Bond. Thunderball was still really good, just not as good as Goldfinger.

I think I've talked about Bond films here in the past! My Step-dad was big on "Goldginfinger" & "Dr. No" while I thought the breakout hit early on was how cool & colorful "You only Live Twice" & "Thunderball" were at the time when I was a kid! Bond zipping in on that underwater fight w/ his propelled airtanks was very dramatic in "Thunderball!" The music in the theatre just had your heart pounding! I had so little respect for Goldfinger as a villain as it was all about him; even going as far as to cheat at cards! A true psycho madman!