Another angle on comparing tennis greats (with a pretty chart)

[the AntiPusher]

Roger in his prime on grass was too good for anyone,, yes we wont remember what happened later in 2019 at Wimby

Hmm.. Roger was in his early prime in 2006, 2007 and 2008.. I know of one player he wasnt too good! hmmm

 

[the AntiPusher]

Yeah, that's a match I've revisited several times, or at least the highlights. Some amazing points and fun to watch.

It is also an interesting match to watch, because despite Roger being one of the few holdouts of strong elements of 90s-style play, he was still more of a new generation. We tend to emphasize the return/defense games of Novak and Rafa, but Roger was doing it as well, if not quite as well. But some of his returns of Pete's serve were epic.

Maybe I'm biased, but I tend to think Roger was overall better during his peak. But 2001 wasn't 94 Pete vs. 06 Roger. I suppose they were both about as far from their best...Pete was a few years past prime, but arguably still good enough to beat anyone on grass (except baby Fed). But Roger was still a good ways from his peak grass form.

That said, while I think Roger was the better player on all surfaces (aside from carpet, which he didn't play a lot on), Pete was a stronger minded competitor, which is one of the reasons I would have liked to see him face-off against Rafa.

Correct, Pete was past his prime. Pete ran into a complete player in Roger that day. Roger was able to become Fed that day. Tennis is the one sport where for one day a player can play way above his pay grade for that 5-6 hour time span.. too bad we didnt get to witness Pete vs Roger Part 2.

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

Uh, Roger's early prime was 2003. His prime was 2004-2007. 2008 was the start of the decline.

Pete's early prime was 1990-1992. His prime was 1993-1998. 1999 was the start of the decline.

2001 was the middle year between the end of Pete's prime and the beginning of Roger's prime.

 

[the AntiPusher]

Uh, Roger's early prime was 2003. His prime was 2004-2007. 2008 was the start of the decline.

Pete's early prime was 1990-1992. His prime was 1993-1998. 1999 was the start of the decline.

2001 was the middle year between the end of Pete's prime and the beginning of Roger's prime.

Are you sure in regards to your listed timeline for Roger's decline.. let's bring @El Dude da Dude into this one.. any thoughts on this Dude ?

 

[El Dude]

Are you sure in regards to your listed timeline for Roger's decline.. let's bring @El Dude da Dude into this one.. any thoughts on this Dude ?

I think the inherent problem is that there's no agreed upon definition of "prime," or "peak," for that matter - so there's a semantic issue.

@PhiEaglesfan712 is using "prime" in the way that I tend to use "peak" - that is, when a player was at their very best for a consistent period of time. But it also is a bit tricky, because different players have different patterns - Rafa being a case in point. His five best seasons are, by my accounting and in chronological order, 2008, 2010, 2013, 2017, and 2019. What is his prime? Is it 2008-19? Or is it 2008-13, when he was probably at his very best (08, 10, and 13 being his very best years). What about 2005-07, when he was already nearly unbeatable on clay, just not as great across all surfaces? Or 2015-16, when he was struggling? Or 2022 when he won two Slams? Rafa has been up and down his whole career, and his different peaks had different qualities of greatness.

Not to mention that best accomplishments and level don't always line up perfectly. Take Tomas Berdych, for example. His lone big title was in 2005, when he won the Paris Masters. But he improved as a player and his overall prime level really didn't start for another five years or so, or 2010-16ish. The reverse can be seen with Goran Ivanisevic, who won his lone Slam in 2001, but his prime phase was 5+ years before.

Back to Roger, after 2007 he wasn't quite as good - and it wasn't only the rise of Rafa and Novak. He was losing to lesser players more frequently. But he was still the 3rd best player in the world through most of the next decade, and of course if Rafa and Novak hadn't been around, he would have piled on more Slams, at least early on. But he also played some of the best tennis of his career in 2017 - a resurgent "peak-ish" season.

Maybe we can illustrate all this by equating a tennis career with a mountain range. We have the "Himalayan Plateau," which for Roger began in 2003 when he broke out and won his first Slam and the Tour Finals and ended in 2019, his last elite season. Within that plateau are mountains of various heights, with 2004-07 being the Everest, K2, and Kangchenjunga of his career. Even though those are the very highest peaks in a range, there are other very high mountains (e.g. 2009, 2012, 2017).

 

[the AntiPusher]

I think the inherent problem is that there's no agreed upon definition of "prime," or "peak," for that matter - so there's a semantic issue.

@PhiEaglesfan712 is using "prime" in the way that I tend to use "peak" - that is, when a player was at their very best for a consistent period of time. But it also is a bit tricky, because different players have different patterns - Rafa being a case in point. His five best seasons are, by my accounting and in chronological order, 2008, 2010, 2013, 2017, and 2019. What is his prime? Is it 2008-19? Or is it 2008-13, when he was probably at his very best (08, 10, and 13 being his very best years). What about 2005-07, when he was already nearly unbeatable on clay, just not as great across all surfaces? Or 2015-16, when he was struggling? Or 2022 when he won two Slams? Rafa has been up and down his whole career, and his different peaks had different qualities of greatness.

Not to mention that best accomplishments and level don't always line up perfectly. Take Tomas Berdych, for example. His lone big title was in 2005, when he won the Paris Masters. But he improved as a player and his overall prime level really didn't start for another five years or so, or 2010-16ish. The reverse can be seen with Goran Ivanisevic, who won his lone Slam in 2001, but his prime phase was 5+ years before.

Back to Roger, after 2007 he wasn't quite as good - and it wasn't only the rise of Rafa and Novak. He was losing to lesser players more frequently. But he was still the 3rd best player in the world through most of the next decade, and of course if Rafa and Novak hadn't been around, he would have piled on more Slams, at least early on. But he also played some of the best tennis of his career in 2017 - a resurgent "peak-ish" season.

Maybe we can illustrate all this by equating a tennis career with a mountain range. We have the "Himalayan Plateau," which for Roger began in 2003 when he broke out and won his first Slam and the Tour Finals and ended in 2019, his last elite season. Within that plateau are mountains of various heights, with 2004-07 being the Everest, K2, and Kangchenjunga of his career. Even though those are the very highest peaks in a range, there are other very high mountains (e.g. 2009, 2012, 2017).

Thanks El Dude..Roger's prime was extended by his ability to tweak his weapon to keep up with Novak, Andy and of course Rafa.

 

[El Dude]

Thanks El Dude..Roger's prime was extended by his ability to tweak his weapon to keep up with Novak, Andy and of course Rafa.

I think that's part of what has made the Big Three so amazing - they all adjusted as they aged. Look at Rafa in 2017-22...that was after 2015-16, when he looked like he was fading out. I haven't studied it in great depth, but my sense is that he adapted his game to not quite being so ferociously fast (he was still really fast, but not quite what he was in 2013 and before). Novak's superpower has been his ridiculous health and fitness. Now it looks like he just doesn't have it anymore.

Time catches us all...even Novak, presumably.

 

[Moxie]

I think that's part of what has made the Big Three so amazing - they all adjusted as they aged. Look at Rafa in 2017-22...that was after 2015-16, when he looked like he was fading out. I haven't studied it in great depth, but my sense is that he adapted his game to not quite being so ferociously fast (he was still really fast, but not quite what he was in 2013 and before).

I can help you out with this. 2014 was complicated with injuries for Rafa. Yes, he won RG again, but if you remember he had a back injury in the final of the AO, v. Wawrinka, and had a wrist injury and appendicitis later that year. 2015 was about recouperating, and lacking confidence, due to the injuries. Everyone and his mother seemed to beat Rafa that year, including Fognini...twice, I think. And 2016 was much of the same.

It's hard to say what he changed to make up for loss of a step, because he's been working on his serve his whole career. He's gotten more aggressive on it, though, gotten to be a better spot-server, and has worked to shorten points. I don't think there was any specific adjustment. He definitely needed to get his confidence back. He is the one, of the 3, IMO, who has always tinkered with his game. I also think he's the most astute and attentive, mid-game, to make changes. Federer, on the other side, being the most hard-headed.

Novak's superpower has been his ridiculous health and fitness. Now it looks like he just doesn't have it anymore.

Time catches us all...even Novak, presumably.

It is ridiculous how healthy Novak seems to stay, especially for all the niggles/injuries he claims to. He cries injury, then wins the next tournament. Kind of aggravating, especially if you're a fan of a guy who has lost serious time to injury.

But, yeah...Father Time seems to be coming for Novak, too. He just turned 37. I think Roger was 36.5 when he won his last Major. I think Rafa was about 36 when he won his last, (but he's still in it! For the record.) Much has been made of the fact that Novak won 3 Majors last year. And much has been made of the fact that he seems a shadow of himself this year. Wear and tear? Rust? Ennui? Nothing more to play for? Let's see if if really wants it anymore. Or if he still has it. The sharks will be circling.

 

[El Dude]

I can help you out with this. 2014 was complicated with injuries for Rafa. Yes, he won RG again, but if you remember he had a back injury in the final of the AO, v. Wawrinka, and had a wrist injury and appendicitis later that year. 2015 was about recouperating, and lacking confidence, due to the injuries. Everyone and his mother seemed to beat Rafa that year, including Fognini...twice, I think. And 2016 was much of the same.

It's hard to say what he changed to make up for loss of a step, because he's been working on his serve his whole career. He's gotten more aggressive on it, though, gotten to be a better spot-server, and has worked to shorten points. I don't think there was any specific adjustment. He definitely needed to get his confidence back. He is the one, of the 3, IMO, who has always tinkered with his game. I also think he's the most astute and attentive, mid-game, to make changes. Federer, on the other side, being the most hard-headed.

That all makes sense, and it is interesting that even you aren't exactly sure what he did differently...though it could be, as you imply, a combination of regained confidence and tinkering adjustments, that eventually congealed into the "late prime" Rafa we saw in 2017-19, and a bit after (to a lesser degree).

The Rafa I saw in 2017-19 was more selective - he wasn't the long-haired wildling of 2005 who ran everything down, but more of a samurai with surges of speed to strike with that deadly forehand and two-handed backhand. It was as if he accepted that "less can be more," if done well.

It is ridiculous how healthy Novak seems to stay, especially for all the niggles/injuries he claims to. He cries injury, then wins the next tournament. Kind of aggravating, especially if you're a fan of a guy who has lost serious time to injury.

Well, I think he deserves kudos as well. Staying healthy is a skill, and Novak works really hard - to the point, I think, of being somewhat of a health puritan. I recognize some of the signs I've seen in the alternative/natural health movement - and the people that do it well are the healthiest people (aside from those who opt out of the pathologies of modern society). I can imagine him never veering from diet and exercise regime, drinking cucumber smoothies at his Monte Carlo parties, waking at dawn to do yoga, sauna, and relaxing in his ozone pod (or whatever he has). On the other hand, I can see Rafa relaxing with a beer with friends while fishing, or Roger enjoying wine and cheese.

I mean, obviously all three knew how to take care of themselves, with their 30+ results, but I just think that Novak is the type that would be rigid, to the point of never veering from his regime, while Rafa and Roger would be more laid back.

Or maybe all three partake in adrenochrome...

But, yeah...Father Time seems to be coming for Novak, too. He just turned 37. I think Roger was 36.5 when he won his last Major. I think Rafa was about 36 when he won his last, (but he's still in it! For the record.) Much has been made of the fact that Novak won 3 Majors last year. And much has been made of the fact that he seems a shadow of himself this year. Wear and tear? Rust? Ennui? Nothing more to play for? Let's see if if really wants it anymore. Or if he still has it. The sharks will be circling.

Well, enjoy it Moxie - I know you've been waiting for this. Haha.

On a serious note, I do think he'll bounce back, in a dead-cat sort of way. But I think his dominance is over, except for maybe a stray big title or three, maybe one more Slam just to round it off at 25. As I said before, I think the best case scenario (for Novak) is somethingn like Agassi's last few years, adjusted for context and Novak's higher peak.
I mean, the one thing that I could see really inspiring him to get back into form would be Rafa winning Roland Garros. So be careful what you wish for!

 

[Moxie]

That all makes sense, and it is interesting that even you aren't exactly sure what he did differently...though it could be, as you imply, a combination of regained confidence and tinkering adjustments, that eventually congealed into the "late prime" Rafa we saw in 2017-19, and a bit after (to a lesser degree).

"A little bit after" 2017? To a lesser degree? He won 4 Majors after 2017, and made the finals of 4 others. That alone is a career.

Rafa didn't make a specific adjustment in the way that Roger finally adapted to a bigger racquet head, or somehow found a stronger backhand. Or Novak just somehow grew into a better monster. (Do you have an analysis for that?) If you followed Rafa's game, it has been endless tinkering. And the late game has been about accommodating the aging, rickety body.

The Rafa I saw in 2017-19 was more selective - he wasn't the long-haired wildling of 2005 who ran everything down, but more of a samurai with surges of speed to strike with that deadly forehand and two-handed backhand. It was as if he accepted that "less can be more," if done well.

He did make his backhand more of a weapon. Flattened it out. Hit deeper, generally, and sometimes flatter, when called for. He stopped being the long-haired wild child after the first great insult to his knees, in 2009, if you ask me. But he was always one to finish at the net. That gets forgotten in the way tennis likes to tell the story. Watch old videos.

Well, I think he deserves kudos as well. Staying healthy is a skill, and Novak works really hard - to the point, I think, of being somewhat of a health puritan. I recognize some of the signs I've seen in the alternative/natural health movement - and the people that do it well are the healthiest people (aside from those who opt out of the pathologies of modern society). I can imagine him never veering from diet and exercise regime, drinking cucumber smoothies at his Monte Carlo parties, waking at dawn to do yoga, sauna, and relaxing in his ozone pod (or whatever he has). On the other hand, I can see Rafa relaxing with a beer with friends while fishing, or Roger enjoying wine and cheese.

Staying healthy is also luck, and a blessing. Doesn't always matter how many cucumber smoothies you consume. I don't know where you get that Rafa drinks beer, or Roger with the wine and cheese. That's falling into a cliche of what the world likes to think they are. I have said that Novak gets credit for keeping himself in shape. I think the stretching gets the most credit.

I mean, obviously all three knew how to take care of themselves, with their 30+ results, but I just think that Novak is the type that would be rigid, to the point of never veering from his regime, while Rafa and Roger would be more laid back.

Maybe, but who knows? I have no idea what Roger ate or eats. Rafa keeps to a fairly Mediterranean diet. No cheese, because he hates it. Lots of fish. You're convinced that Novak keeps to a regime because that's what he tells us. OK, results do show that he's probably quite strict about his habits.

Well, enjoy it Moxie - I know you've been waiting for this. Haha.

Don't be a dick. All I've said is that people who pretend that Novak can beat Father Time are kidding themselves. Folks have been talking about Majors to 40 and past 40. No amount of whey shakes (movie reference) will keep you in the game forever.

On a serious note, I do think he'll bounce back, in a dead-cat sort of way. But I think his dominance is over, except for maybe a stray big title or three, maybe one more Slam just to round it off at 25. As I said before, I think the best case scenario (for Novak) is somethingn like Agassi's last few years, adjusted for context and Novak's higher peak.
I mean, the one thing that I could see really inspiring him to get back into form would be Rafa winning Roland Garros. So be careful what you wish for!

Oh, wow, now you are giving Novak the dead-cat bounce. (I seem to remember you giving it to Rafa. God, I hope it was before he won another RG! ) Honestly, I'm with you. Chances that he's completely done seem small, given last year. Chances that he's mostly done, however, seem increasingly probable, given this year. I'm not even being a bitch because I don't like him. I'm being practical. He's 37, and on a bad slide. On top of that, there are some young guys out there who seem to have his number. He's also got a target on his back, and the locker room is increasingly less intimidated. It happens to all of them.

 

[El Dude]

"A little bit after" 2017? To a lesser degree? He won 4 Majors after 2017, and made the finals of 4 others. That alone is a career.

I think you missed the part where I wrote "2017-19". Yes, he won 3 Slams after, but I think 2019 was the peak of his late career surge. I think he was better in 2017-19 than he was in 2020-22.

Rafa didn't make a specific adjustment in the way that Roger finally adapted to a bigger racquet head, or somehow found a stronger backhand. Or Novak just somehow grew into a better monster. (Do you have an analysis for that?) If you followed Rafa's game, it has been endless tinkering. And the late game has been about accommodating the aging, rickety body.

He did make his backhand more of a weapon. Flattened it out. Hit deeper, generally, and sometimes flatter, when called for. He stopped being the long-haired wild child after the first great insult to his knees, in 2009, if you ask me. But he was always one to finish at the net. That gets forgotten in the way tennis likes to tell the story. Watch old videos.

Staying healthy is also luck, and a blessing. Doesn't always matter how many cucumber smoothies you consume. I don't know where you get that Rafa drinks beer, or Roger with the wine and cheese. That's falling into a cliche of what the world likes to think they are. I have said that Novak gets credit for keeping himself in shape. I think the stretching gets the most credit.

Maybe, but who knows? I have no idea what Roger ate or eats. Rafa keeps to a fairly Mediterranean diet. No cheese, because he hates it. Lots of fish. You're convinced that Novak keeps to a regime because that's what he tells us. OK, results do show that he's probably quite strict about his habits.

I was only conjuring silly images to illustrate my view that Novak is more of a health nazi, and that Rafa and Roger probably are less strict, although obviously take care of themselves quite well. I just think Novak takes it to another level, with a kind of OCD vibe, imo. Who knows, though.

Don't be a dick. All I've said is that people who pretend that Novak can beat Father Time are kidding themselves. Folks have been talking about Majors to 40 and past 40. No amount of whey shakes (movie reference) will keep you in the game forever.

Don't be touchy, Moxie . But yeah, I agree.

Oh, wow, now you are giving Novak the dead-cat bounce. (I seem to remember you giving it to Rafa. God, I hope it was before he won another RG! ) Honestly, I'm with you. Chances that he's completely done seem small, given last year. Chances that he's mostly done, however, seem increasingly probable, given this year. I'm not even being a bitch because I don't like him. I'm being practical. He's 37, and on a bad slide. On top of that, there are some young guys out there who seem to have his number. He's also got a target on his back, and the locker room is increasingly less intimidated. It happens to all of them.

Yes, agreed. I think what is shocking is how quickly we've come to the point where we can even entertain Novak being done. Even if he wins another Slam or two, it still seems like the end of an era...that is, of Novak being the top player on tour.

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

Sometimes, the end can come suddenly. Andre Agassi had a good 2005, and was holding his own against Rafa and Roger, then he was a shell of himself in 2006. Same with Federer, who was good in 2019 (and made the Australian Open semifinals in his only tournament in 2020), but was a broken down version of himself in 2021. It probably isn't, but there's a chance that 2023 was Novak's last good year on tour.

 

[Moxie]

I think you missed the part where I wrote "2017-19". Yes, he won 3 Slams after, but I think 2019 was the peak of his late career surge. I think he was better in 2017-19 than he was in 2020-22.

OK, I wrote that wrong, but my point is that you were being a bit dismissive of still winning 3 Majors.

I was only conjuring silly images to illustrate my view that Novak is more of a health nazi, and that Rafa and Roger probably are less strict, although obviously take care of themselves quite well. I just think Novak takes it to another level, with a kind of OCD vibe, imo. Who knows, though.

Don't be touchy, Moxie . But yeah, I agree.

Yes, agreed. I think what is shocking is how quickly we've come to the point where we can even entertain Novak being done. Even if he wins another Slam or two, it still seems like the end of an era...that is, of Novak being the top player on tour.

I wouldn't be insulted if you weren't being rude. On top of it, you agree me.

It is a bit surprising how much he's dropped off in form/motivation this year, after winning 3 Majors last year. At the same time, I've been surprised how long he's been able to maintain such top form. I'm sure he has been quite strict in his habits. Maybe he'd just like to drink a beer and eat a pizza, at this stage in his life.

 

[El Dude]

OK, I wrote that wrong, but my point is that you were being a bit dismissive of still winning 3 Majors.

No I wasn't. I was suggesting that he wasn't quite as good in 2020-22 as he was in 2017-19.

I wouldn't be insulted if you weren't being rude. On top of it, you agree me.

It is a bit surprising how much he's dropped off in form/motivation this year, after winning 3 Majors last year. At the same time, I've been surprised how long he's been able to maintain such top form. I'm sure he has been quite strict in his habits. Maybe he'd just like to drink a beer and eat a pizza, at this stage in his life.

I mean, why wouldn't he? (I'm making pizza tonight, and am probably going to get some beer, too)

 

[the AntiPusher]

"A little bit after" 2017? To a lesser degree? He won 4 Majors after 2017, and made the finals of 4 others. That alone is a career.

Rafa didn't make a specific adjustment in the way that Roger finally adapted to a bigger racquet head, or somehow found a stronger backhand. Or Novak just somehow grew into a better monster. (Do you have an analysis for that?) If you followed Rafa's game, it has been endless tinkering. And the late game has been about accommodating the aging, rickety body.

He did make his backhand more of a weapon. Flattened it out. Hit deeper, generally, and sometimes flatter, when called for. He stopped being the long-haired wild child after the first great insult to his knees, in 2009, if you ask me. But he was always one to finish at the net. That gets forgotten in the way tennis likes to tell the story. Watch old videos.

Staying healthy is also luck, and a blessing. Doesn't always matter how many cucumber smoothies you consume. I don't know where you get that Rafa drinks beer, or Roger with the wine and cheese. That's falling into a cliche of what the world likes to think they are. I have said that Novak gets credit for keeping himself in shape. I think the stretching gets the most credit.

Maybe, but who knows? I have no idea what Roger ate or eats. Rafa keeps to a fairly Mediterranean diet. No cheese, because he hates it. Lots of fish. You're convinced that Novak keeps to a regime because that's what he tells us. OK, results do show that he's probably quite strict about his habits.

Don't be a dick. All I've said is that people who pretend that Novak can beat Father Time are kidding themselves. Folks have been talking about Majors to 40 and past 40. No amount of whey shakes (movie reference) will keep you in the game forever.

Oh, wow, now you are giving Novak the dead-cat bounce. (I seem to remember you giving it to Rafa. God, I hope it was before he won another RG! ) Honestly, I'm with you. Chances that he's completely done seem small, given last year. Chances that he's mostly done, however, seem increasingly probable, given this year. I'm not even being a bitch because I don't like him. I'm being practical. He's 37, and on a bad slide. On top of that, there are some young guys out there who seem to have his number. He's also got a target on his back, and the locker room is increasingly less intimidated. It happens to all of them.

Wait wait wait.. Moxie. You wrote "Rafa made changes to his game . Hit the ball flatter" .

You saw me battle for years on the other board with that snobby Canadian who called me an idiot saying that When I said Rafa needed to begin flatten out his strokes around 2010 but NoOne came to my defense. Don't pipe in MM this was way before we met you . I know the poster would NEVER admit that he/she was wrong!

 

[Moxie]

No I wasn't. I was suggesting that he wasn't quite as good in 2020-22 as he was in 2017-19.

OK, maybe it just sounded dismissive to me. But you know I've got sensitive ears.

I mean, why wouldn't he? (I'm making pizza tonight, and am probably going to get some beer, too)

Funny, I'm making pizza tonight, too! (Maybe not SO funny, because it's Sat. night, but we're both making it, not ordering in.)

Maybe Novak IS having a pizza and a beer, too, and that's why his results have dropped off. But kidding aside, you know what I mean about the rigors of maintaining a top athlete's body, especially later in the career. And particularly if he's as strict as he implies that he is. Could be one of the things he's losing motivation for. @don_fabio suggested as much, above. That he may not be training as much, and just kind of hoping/expecting he find his groove, like he used to.

 

[Moxie]

Wait wait wait.. Moxie. You wrote "Rafa made changes to his game . Hit the ball flatter" .

You saw me battle for years on the other board with that snobby Canadian who called me an idiot saying that When I said Rafa needed to begin flatten out his strokes around 2010 but NoOne came to my defense. Don't pipe in MM this was way before we met you . I know the poster would NEVER admit that he/she was wrong!

Who was the "snobby Canadian?"

 

[El Dude]

OK, maybe it just sounded dismissive to me. But you know I've got sensitive ears.

Funny, I'm making pizza tonight, too! (Maybe not SO funny, because it's Sat. night, but we're both making it, not ordering in.)

Maybe Novak IS having a pizza and a beer, too, and that's why his results have dropped off. But kidding aside, you know what I mean about the rigors of maintaining a top athlete's body, especially later in the career. And particularly if he's as strict as he implies that he is. Could be one of the things he's losing motivation for. @don_fabio suggested as much, above. That he may not be training as much, and just kind of hoping/expecting he find his groove, like he used to.

Yes, and I think I've been right there with you, with that hypothesis (along with the end of the Big Three era, and losing motivation due to that).

Pizza turned out pretty well, though I didn't have the 00 flour and had to use all-purpose. Not as good, but still delicious. My daughters and lady-friend were pleased, which is all that matters.

 

[Moxie]

Yes, and I think I've been right there with you, with that hypothesis (along with the end of the Big Three era, and losing motivation due to that).

Pizza turned out pretty well, though I didn't have the 00 flour and had to use all-purpose. Not as good, but still delicious. My daughters and lady-friend were pleased, which is all that matters.

Not to distract from the thread, but what toppings? I went full old-school pepperoni, with arugula, lightly bathed in lemon and garlic to take the edge off of the oil from the pepperoni. I throw the arugula on top at the end. Lots of it. It's like a pizza and a salad, in one.

I know we're all on the same train as to wondering what has happened to Novak's game, and thinking that it's motivation. It's not a specific injury, so what else could it be, really? Yes, age. The body doesn't respond as well or as quickly. But the sharp drop-off, and the firing of the crew seems to be more mental than physical.

 

[don_fabio]

Funny, I'm making pizza tonight, too! (Maybe not SO funny, because it's Sat. night, but we're both making it, not ordering in.)

Kudos for both of you and El Dude for making pizza at home. Ordering has become too expensive and it's just more fun to make it yourself. We used to bake it in a conventional electric oven, but recently bought a portable gas oven (similar to Ooni Koda 12") and it's honestly a game changer. Pizza is done in less than 2 minutes due to much higher temperature inside and taste like you bought it from napolitan pizza place. We always make dough at least 1 day ahead, but usually 2-3 days before and let it sit in a fridge. It turns out great.

Maybe Novak IS having a pizza and a beer, too, and that's why his results have dropped off. But kidding aside, you know what I mean about the rigors of maintaining a top athlete's body, especially later in the career. And particularly if he's as strict as he implies that he is. Could be one of the things he's losing motivation for. @don_fabio suggested as much, above. That he may not be training as much, and just kind of hoping/expecting he find his groove, like he used to.

As Goran said, even in the offseason Novak had hard time to motivate himself. I can imagine how it is now, when a few months have passed and couple of coaches left. Where is his hitting partner btw, that spanish fella, he is missing too? He seems to be homesick, wants to spend too much time with his family and that doesn't work well for the pro athlete.