2023 Wimbledon F: Alcaraz vs. Djokovic

[Kieran]

Some of Rafa's wins in the RG final were some of the worst. Just last year he beat Ruud 6-3 6-3 6-0. And then Stan in 2017 6-2 6-3 6-1 and Ferrer in 2013, 6-3 6-2 6-3.

You forget the 2020 final.

But I’ve been saying it for years brother, the Big 3 records are inflated. Combination of things. They’re like 100m sprinters leaving everyone on the starting line. Hopefully we’re heading into another scrappy period like the 80’s, though with the way the courts play, I don’t think so…

 

[Kieran]

Evan as a Rafa fan I was live at that RG 2008 final, Rafa did take his clay court game to another level in 2008 though that final against Roger was sad to see in ways, complete blow out.

Sad? One of the best days in my life!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Sad? One of the best days in my life!

I knew you would say that Kieran lol! what I meant to say I wish it was more compeitiive ( though it was great wasnt it )

 

[El Dude]

And how many of them went 2-0 in their first two?

God damn you. That's a tough one. Among ATGs, the Slam final win streaks to start were: Rafa 2-0, Roger 7-0 (!), Becker 2-0, Edberg 3-0, Borg 3-0, Connors 3-0.

And of course Stan was 3-0 before losing a final. Hewitt 2-0, Bruguera 2-0, Rafter 2-0.

 

[tented]

I knew you would say that Kieran lol! what I meant to say I wish it was more compeitiive ( though it was great wasnt it )

I can definitely see, though, how it would have been disappointing having bought tickets, made the trip to be there, etc., only for it to be a blowout.

 

[tented]

God damn you. That's a tough one. Among ATGs, the Slam final win streaks to start were: Rafa 2-0, Roger 7-0 (!), Becker 2-0, Edberg 3-0, Borg 3-0, Connors 3-0.

7-0 in his first seven major finals! Now there’s a record of Roger’s which may never be broken, like his consecutive weeks at No. 1.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I can definitely see, though, how it would have been disappointing having bought tickets, made the trip to be there, etc., only for it to be a blowout.

Actually I had tickets also for Rafa v Novak before the final not that bad and I stay with my cousins who live in Paris had a nice holiday afterwards

 

[El Dude]

All the Carlos love, here's something amazing about Novak. Of the last 12 Slams he's played in, he's reached the final 10 times. One of the two times he didn't make the final was due to disqualification in the 4R, the other was losing to Rafa in the RG QF last year.

 

[Kieran]

Actually I had tickets also for Rafa v Novak before the final not that bad and I stay with my cousins who live in Paris

Did Novak actually finish the match or did he bail when he was losing? There’s been so many times bailed..

 

[El Dude]

7-0 in his first seven major finals! Now there’s a record of Roger’s which may never be broken, like his consecutive weeks at No. 1.

Probably not, but you just never know. 20 years ago, we would have never thought we'd see not one but three 20+ Slam winners, and now here we are.

That said, I am very leery to compare anyone -- even Carlos -- to the Big Three. It just isn't fair. Plus, as Keiran likes to remind us, a lot of it has to do with opportunity and context. Who knows what the next decade or so will be like for Carlos, who might yet still emerge as top players, and how Carlos will hold up past his 20s. Right now, though, the sky is the limit. He could be #1 for the next four or five years, or be de-throned by Novak in a month or two, or by someone else (Holger?) next year.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Did Novak actually finish the match or did he bail when he was losing? There’s been so many times bailed..

No he stayed for the whole match, lost in 3 sets to Rafa, as I said Rafa took his clay court to another level at RG in 2008
His dad didnt though lol! he left the match in a huff before the match ended

 

[El Dude]

Did Novak actually finish the match or did he bail when he was losing? There’s been so many times bailed..

He finished the match, punk.

 

[Kieran]

Probably not, but you just never know. 20 years ago, we would have never thought we'd see not one but three 20+ Slam winners, and now here we are.

That said, I am very leery to compare anyone -- even Carlos -- to the Big Three. It just isn't fair. Plus, as Keiran likes to remind us, a lot of it has to do with opportunity and context. Who knows what the next decade or so will be like for Carlos, who might yet still emerge as top players, and how Carlos will hold up past his 20s. Right now, though, the sky is the limit. He could be #1 for the next four or five years, or be de-throned by Novak in a month or two, or by someone else (Holger?) next year.

One thing I’ll say about Carlos, and I know it came up here a few times that he might only be a Hewitt, but I think his ranges of shots might prohibit that, his mental strength and the fact theatre he’s not a little ‘un punching above his weight.

I’m not saying he’ll be double digits (and I believe we’ll have great players in the future who’ll have maybe ten or eleven slams but are compared to the Big 3) but I think now he’ll be a bigger player in tennis history than Hewitt..

 

[Kieran]

No he stayed for the whole match, lost in 3 sets to Rafa, as I said Rafa took his clay court to another level at RG in 2008
His dad didnt though lol! he left the match in a huff before the match ended

Novaks dad? Classy bloke…

 

[the AntiPusher]

Brotha The Rafa fans doesn't have a year. It CAN'T be tomorrow, Tomorrow is TODAY! Heck I was wondering if Carlos tripped Novak by "mistake" as they were walking down the stairs could I sleep well. I would be AIGHT; seriously It has to Happen Now.

Well @Kieran that was my prematch pep talk for Us Rafa fans

 

[Federberg]

Some of Rafa's wins in the RG final were some of the worst. Just last year he beat Ruud 6-3 6-3 6-0. And then Stan in 2017 6-2 6-3 6-1 and Ferrer in 2013, 6-3 6-2 6-3.

But yeah, the worst was 2008 RG: Rafa over Roger 6-1 6-3 6-0. That's the fewest games won by the loser in ANY Roland Garros of the Open Era.

Novak has had some lopsided wins at the AO, not as bad as RG 2008 but similar to the others. The worst recent one was Novak over Rafa in 2019, 6-3 6-2 6-3. Agassi over Schuettler in 2003 was worse, though: 6-2 6-2 6-1, and maybe the worst of the Open Era (Korda over Rios in '98 and Lendl over Mecir in '89 were close, both 6-2 6-2 6-2).

At the USO Roger over Hewitt in 2004 was pretty bad: 6-0 7-6 6-0. A tiebreaker sandwiched by two bagels! Edberg over Courier in 1991 and Lendl over Mecir in '86 were also bad: 6-2 6-4 6-0 and 6-4 6-2 6-0. But the absolute worst USO final was in 1974, when a young Connors beat an old Rosewall 6-1 6-0 6-1. Ouch. Maybe the worst Slam final ever.

Wimbledon: Roger over Cilic in 2017 was the worst in recent years: 6-3 6-1 6-4. Going back, McEnroe over Jimmy Connors in '84, 6-1 6-1 6-2, and over Chris Lewis in '83, 6-2 6-2 6-2 were worst. Borg over Connors in '78, 6-2 6-2 6-3, was also bad, as was Connors over Rosewall in '74, 6-1 6-1 6-4.

I had the extreme displeasure of being there live for that '08 RG final. We had booked the 9pm Eurotunnel to get back to London. Ended up having to wait in a shitty cafe near Gard du Nord for hours. It was horrific!!

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Novaks dad? Classy bloke…

He did the same thing at the AO in 2008, his dad is a .....though he came back to see his son win his first GS title he didnt like the French fans near him cheering on Joe?

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

I had the extreme displeasure of being there live for that '08 RG final. We had booked the 9pm Eurotunnel to get back to London. Ended up having to wait in a shitty cafe near Gard du Nord for hours. It was horrific!!

You and me both at that final

 

[Moxie]

You forget the 2020 final.

But I’ve been saying it for years brother, the Big 3 records are inflated. Combination of things. They’re like 100m sprinters leaving everyone on the starting line. Hopefully we’re heading into another scrappy period like the 80’s, though with the way the courts play, I don’t think so…

Good point. Novak won 7 games, same as Stan. Even Ferrer got 8.

 

[El Dude]

One thing I’ll say about Carlos, and I know it came up here a few times that he might only be a Hewitt, but I think his ranges of shots might prohibit that, his mental strength and the fact theatre he’s not a little ‘un punching above his weight.

I’m not saying he’ll be double digits (and I believe we’ll have great players in the future who’ll have maybe ten or eleven slams but are compared to the Big 3) but I think now he’ll be a bigger player in tennis history than Hewitt..

I definitely agree. Even Elo says that Carlos is already better than Hewitt ever was. Carlos was at 2290 to begin the tournament, Hewitt peaked at 2295, and Carlos is probably now somewhere in the 2300-2330 range.

Hewitt was a really good player, and the fact that he was cast adrift by the rise of Roger sort of diminishes how good he actually was from 2000 to 2005. But...he was also the beneficiary of the kind of opportunity you talk about. His reign in 2001-02 was against a decrepit Sampras and old Agassi, a weak generation that should have been reigning (Kuerten, Moya, Rios, etc), an erratic then-best peer (Safin), and before the rise of Fedal. If the Kuerten group had been stronger and/or Safin been less of a head-case, there's no way he'd have gotten 80 weeks at #1.

The "anti-Hewitt" would be Andy Murray, whose mere 3 Slams under-represent how good he actually was.