2023 Wimbledon F: Alcaraz vs. Djokovic

[Moxie]

I get your point, but IMO it does indicate the player was at least playing well enough to win that particular match against that opponent.

Especially if said player got to match-point first on their own serve , because then the match is literally on their racket.

So as a tennis fan, I can certainly empathize with fans thinking their player “should have won” and being incredulous about the final result.

(ETA: just realized both the USO SF 2011 & the 2019 W final was Federer 40-15 on his serve, i think the 2010 USO SF was 15-40 Novak serving.)

I’m more forgiving if a player reaches matchpoint on the opponent’s serve, and the opponent responds with a screaming ace or service winner erasing it. Not much a player can do in that scenario.

I never quite understand what it means to say that if/when a plays at his "best." I think we all agree that it's hard to play absolute best the whole time over the course of a long match, especially against a formidable opponent. There are ebbs and flows. Plus, I suspect when we talk about the 2019 Wimbledon, that Federer fans mean his earlier best. That level was not necessarily attainable, or long sustainable at 37 (nearly 38,) as I believe Federer was then. Getting to championship points on his serve, though, does indicate he was playing "well enough," as you say. And I would suggest more than that, given that he was playing Novak.

You know I have little patience for fans claiming a "shoulda" won, but that W 2019 comes as close as they get, IMO. He had 2 serves, and he had been a great and reliable server, though he had begun to falter when closing, in recent years. As @shawnbm says, above: one ace away. I think this is where age was a factor. Not in stamina, but in belief, and in that the window of opportunity was closing to the size of a keyhole. Novak evened the match, and Roger had more chances to win, by virtue of time, but that window closed on him, and he seemed to feel it.

To bring it back to the Alcaraz d. Djokovic match, to say that it would have been all over if Novak had won that second set TB is not wildly conjectural, but it's still a parallel universe. Novak never had CP's in that match. Did he play his "best?" He played some very good tennis in that match. Did he not play his "best" when it mattered? No. But you have to ask yourself why. There are similarities to the 2019 W final: a) opponent and b) pressure, such as age, and window closing, with the addition of CYGS.

 

[Jelenafan]

I never quite understand what it means to say that if/when a plays at his "best." I think we all agree that it's hard to play absolute best the whole time over the course of a long match, especially against a formidable opponent. There are ebbs and flows. Plus, I suspect when we talk about the 2019 Wimbledon, that Federer fans mean his earlier best. That level was not necessarily attainable, or long sustainable at 37 (nearly 38,) as I believe Federer was then. Getting to championship points on his serve, though, does indicate he was playing "well enough," as you say. And I would suggest more than that, given that he was playing Novak.

You know I have little patience for fans claiming a "shoulda" won, but that W 2019 comes as close as they get, IMO. He had 2 serves, and he had been a great and reliable server, though he had begun to falter when closing, in recent years. As @shawnbm says, above: one ace away. I think this is where age was a factor. Not in stamina, but in belief, and in that the window of opportunity was closing to the size of a keyhole. Novak evened the match, and Roger had more chances to win, by virtue of time, but that window closed on him, and he seemed to feel it.

To bring it back to the Alcaraz d. Djokovic match, to say that it would have been all over if Novak had won that second set TB is not wildly conjectural, but it's still a parallel universe. Novak never had CP's in that match. Did he play his "best?" He played some very good tennis in that match. Did he not play his "best" when it mattered? No. But you have to ask yourself why. There are similarities to the 2019 W final: a) opponent and b) pressure, such as age, and window closing, with the addition of CYGS.

In some ways 2011 was worse because Federer had won the first two sets and in the 5th set was serving at 5-3, 40-15 and then he got in a good wide first serve only to have Novak rip it back cross-court for an outright winner. : O 28 year old Federer was not ancient yet…



I think after that match was the most “sour grapes” i ever heard Federer in a postmatch interview. He said Novak just got “a lucky shot.”

Ouch.

 

[PhiEaglesfan712]

In some ways 2011 was worse because Federer had won the first two sets and in the 5th set was serving at 5-3, 40-15 and then he got in a good wide first serve only to have Novak rip it back cross-court for an outright winner. : O 28 year old Federer was not ancient yet…



I think after that match was the most “sour grapes” i ever heard Federer in a postmatch interview. He said Novak just got “a lucky shot.”

Ouch.

In my opinion, even if Roger had defeated Novak in either the 2010 or 2011 US Open, I do not think he would have beaten Rafa in the finals to steal a slam. Keep in mind, the US Open (even though Roger won it 5 times in a row from 2004-2008) became his worst slam post-2008. The 2014 and 2019 Wimbledon finals will always hurt more because they were in Roger's best slam/surface. If Roger just wins those 2 matches, he has 10 Wimbledons and the slam count is Federer 22, Nadal 22, Novak 21. Not to mention, his longest gap between slams would have been 2.5 years.

 

[Moxie]

I'm not sure why we're revisiting Roger's most painful losses here, except that we can say that some were closer than Alcaraz d. Djokovic, which is the point of this thread. At least a couple of those slipped through Roger's fingers, as in they were within his grasp. This match was not so for Novak. MikeOne and the not-so-legendary Pilic can complain about that lost 2nd set, but it was still a Best of 5 match, and far from over. I'm sure Novak will have this one high on his list of regrets, given all that was on the line, and how favored he was to win, but he was out-played, in the end. I hope he regrets underestimating his opponent, if that's what cost him. Either he neglected to sharpen his blade that day, or maybe it only gets so sharp anymore, at 36.

 

[Jelenafan]

In my opinion, even if Roger had defeated Novak in either the 2010 or 2011 US Open, I do not think he would have beaten Rafa in the finals to steal a slam. Keep in mind, the US Open (even though Roger won it 5 times in a row from 2004-2008) became his worst slam post-2008. The 2014 and 2019 Wimbledon finals will always hurt more because they were in Roger's best slam/surface. If Roger just wins those 2 matches, he has 10 Wimbledons and the slam count is Federer 22, Nadal 22, Novak 21. Not to mention, his longest gap between slams would have been 2.5 years.

Yes you bring out some good points, i was thinking in the context of the posts earlier how “age” would not be a speculative point as Federer was “ only “ 28 that year. In 2011 it seemed he matched up better versus Novak than Nadal, as he beat Novak at the French Open and like i mentioned earlier was in the driver’s seat for about 2 1/2 sets . Regardless each painful loss is a painfull loss in their own distinct way, the Patriots losing both those SB’s to the Giants & Eli Manning (???!!!???) I still debate which was worse.

BTW I agree that Rafa would have had a great shot at winning that 2011 USO title versus Roger, on HC he matched well so in this hypothetical “what if” it would be this Slam tally:

Nadal 23, Novak 22, Federer 21

 

[Jelenafan]

I'm not sure why we're revisiting Roger's most painful losses here,..,

Because it’s a fun thing to do….

You may have a point….

 

[Moxie]

Because it’s a fun thing to do….

You may have a point….

I was totally with you when you got to Nadal 23, Novak 22, Roger 21. I gave you a "like."

It's my favorite thing to do, revisit old territory. I just figure if I mention the original topic ever 3 or 4 posts, the admins won't feel like they have to move them.

Because I'm not finished discussing this match, which has been the highlight of my season, with Rafa on the sidelines.

 

[Fiero425]

Yes you bring out some good points, i was thinking in the context of the posts earlier how “age” would not be a speculative point as Federer was “ only “ 28 that year. In 2011 it seemed he matched up better versus Novak than Nadal, as he beat Novak at the French Open and like i mentioned earlier was in the driver’s seat for about 2 1/2 sets . Regardless each painful loss is a painfull loss in their own distinct way, the Patriots losing both those SB’s to the Giants & Eli Manning (???!!!???) I still debate which was worse.

BTW I agree that Rafa would have had a great shot at winning that 2011 USO title versus Roger, on HC he matched well so in this hypothetical “what if” it would be this Slam tally:

Nadal 23, Novak 22, Federer 21

I hated that 2011 USO Final! It was more draining than the '12 AO Final considering the points, games, & sets just ran on interminably at Flushing! Points had rallies going 20+ routinely, games going on for 16-20 min., & sets over an hour/ hour 1/2! Novak's 2011 saved us from consecutive seasons of Rafa winning everything as his 2010 was one of his best efforts! Rafa could have sealed the deal as the GOAT rather early as Novak only had 1 major at the time! That was a true rivalry unlike the make-believe one created w/ Fedal!

 

[Nadalfan2013]

I hated that 2011 USO Final! It was more draining than the '12 AO Final considering the points, games, & sets just ran on interminably at Flushing! Points had rallies going 20+ routinely, games going on for 16-20 min., & sets over an hour/ hour 1/2! Novak's 2011 saved us from consecutive seasons of Rafa winning everything as his 2010 was one of his best efforts! Rafa could have sealed the deal as the GOAT rather early as Novak only had 1 major at the time! That was a true rivalry unlike the make-believe one created w/ Fedal!

Rafa in 2011 was nowhere near the level he was in 2010. I'd say 2011 Rafa is around 25% of the level of 2010 Rafa.

 

[Kieran]

Much is made of Federer losing to Novak in 2019 SW19. It had to be his greatest loss and frustrating beyond belief, but who really thought he would beat Novak back then? It was making the final that was inspiring. Him getting two championship points on his service was incredible. But, Novak got back those serves and hung tough. He deserved the title, even if Roger ought to have won if only he had hit an ace or one of his best services. It did not happen, unfortunately. But Roger did play well as did Nole, obviously.

Yeah I tend to agree. I don’t think Roger played ‘his best’ - which was many years in the past - but he got to match point against a player 6 years his junior, after what Roger himself described as a grinding semi final against Rafa. Novak is like Napoleons best generals - he’s been lucky in his opponents over the last 4 years - but Roger achieved something immense in that final…

 

[Kieran]

I hated that 2011 USO Final! It was more draining than the '12 AO Final considering the points, games, & sets just ran on interminably at Flushing! Points had rallies going 20+ routinely, games going on for 16-20 min., & sets over an hour/ hour 1/2! Novak's 2011 saved us from consecutive seasons of Rafa winning everything as his 2010 was one of his best efforts! Rafa could have sealed the deal as the GOAT rather early as Novak only had 1 major at the time! That was a true rivalry unlike the make-believe one created w/ Fedal!

You forget that due to the strangely inept scheduling of the USO that year the defending champ started late and had to play his last 4 matches in 5 days, so little wonder it was draining. For Rafa, anyway…

 

[atttomole]

I'm not sure why we're revisiting Roger's most painful losses here, except that we can say that some were closer than Alcaraz d. Djokovic, which is the point of this thread. At least a couple of those slipped through Roger's fingers, as in they were within his grasp. This match was not so for Novak. MikeOne and the not-so-legendary Pilic can complain about that lost 2nd set, but it was still a Best of 5 match, and far from over. I'm sure Novak will have this one high on his list of regrets, given all that was on the line, and how favored he was to win, but he was out-played, in the end. I hope he regrets underestimating his opponent, if that's what cost him. Either he neglected to sharpen his blade that day, or maybe it only gets so sharp anymore, at 36.

The reason is that your good friend. Jelenafan, can’t stop bringing up Federer, even when there is no need to. There must be something about Federer that torments him!!

 

[tented]

 

[Kieran]

Great interview. God, he’s so young. Can shave his hair off and it grows back. Ah the days! They go so fast. So does the hair. Nice bloke!

 

[the AntiPusher]

In some ways 2011 was worse because Federer had won the first two sets and in the 5th set was serving at 5-3, 40-15 and then he got in a good wide first serve only to have Novak rip it back cross-court for an outright winner. : O 28 year old Federer was not ancient yet…



I think after that match was the most “sour grapes” i ever heard Federer in a postmatch interview. He said Novak just got “a lucky shot.”

Ouch.

That shot truly change calculus between those two dramatically. Novak was the hunter and Roger was the hunted at that phase in their careers..