2019 Roland Garros Men's Final: Rafael Nadal vs. Dominic Thiem

[Ricardo]

Totally agree.
Who was statistically the best server so far?
Since I follow tennis (early 80s) my choice is Goran Ivanišević , surly only the serve. He was unfortunately always a mental midget .

you didn't follow tennis. anyone can see Ivo beats Goran in either aces or services game holds, and that's considering Goran has better ground game which supports his service game better.

 

[Federberg]

Totally disagree bud. If his serve was in the same realm as some of those other guys his serve stats would be way beyond what they currently are. I'm not sure how it's even a question. Roddick has slightly better stats and that was with a way way worse game backing up his serve.

I think we're looking at serves differently. You choose to isolate the serve itself as a one off shot. On that basis it's hard to dispute your conclusion. But I don't see a serve that way and I don't believe the greatest players do either. Their optimal play doesn't seem to be the ace. It's a go to serve they can rely on absolutely that's high percentage and elicits a return into a specific area on the court (or drags the returner into a specific area) and elicits a setup for a point ending response. To me, this is a far more important play than going for an ace which is really a shot to nothing. This is what we have always seen the really strong servers. The guys who win more service games than others do this. And there are few that are in Federer's league in that regard

 

[the AntiPusher]

I read you fine. If you don't see how Roddick, Isner, and Karlovic having superior serve stats proves that their serve (as a stand alone shot) is far superior to Roger then I can't help you.

I will put it this way; your life is on the line for the next point and you are picking someone to serve for you. You know nothing about the rest of the player's game aside from their serve. Would you want Roger serving for you instead of Isner, Roddick, Karlovic, Raonic, etc? I wouldn't need to think more than a 1/2 second. If Roger served anywhere near as well as those guys he'd be impossible to break off clay.

if my life depended on one person .I want Sampras..next would be Roger or Johnny Mac in his prime with a wooden racket..Each player would follow their serves to the net..I wouldn't trust Roddick, Karlovic and the Canadian missile.. between all of them, they have a total of One single grand slam title than I do..Hell , I can crank a 120-125 MPH serve and I am now Old.. however I would serve and volley..I am nobody's Fool

 

[DarthFed]

I think we're looking at serves differently. You choose to isolate the serve itself as a one off shot. On that basis it's hard to dispute your conclusion. But I don't see a serve that way and I don't believe the greatest players do either. Their optimal play doesn't seem to be the ace. It's a go to serve they can rely on absolutely that's high percentage and elicits a return into a specific area on the court (or drags the returner into a specific area) and elicits a setup for a point ending response. To me, this is a far more important play than going for an ace which is really a shot to nothing. This is what we have always seen the really strong servers. The guys who win more service games than others do this. And there are few that are in Federer's league in that regard

I definitely get the argument that Roger's serve sets up the rest of his game really well. The problem with comparing that to Roddick and big serving trees is that those guys didn't have anywhere near as much game to back up their serves. I will put it this way; if you give Roger the serve of any of those guys mentioned I think he'd be a much better player and the opposite if you give Roger's serve to the other guys. I think if any of the top 3 had the serve of Ivo or Isner they'd never lose a match, at least not one off of clay.

 

[Bonaca]

you didn't follow tennis. anyone can see Ivo beats Goran in either aces or services game holds, and that's considering Goran has better ground game which supports his service game better.

Didn’t check stats, just feeling. He had a very effective serv and was an ace machine. Remember the 1000 aces in Wimbledon, think he was the first.
Maybe because of his better results I thought he was above Ivo.

 

[Ricardo]

Didn’t check stats, just feeling. He had a very effective serv and was an ace machine. Remember the 1000 aces in Wimbledon, think he was the first.
Maybe because of his better results I thought he was above Ivo.

Ivo hammered more aces in less matches than Goran, so he was the king of ace machines. Goran is behind Ivo and Isner but certainly one of the greatest acemen. His serve is the hardest to break, and that's purely on his serving ability as he is extremely slow around the court....no question who is the best server ever, when one considers serve, and serve alone.

 

[Ricardo]

if my life depended on one person .I want Sampras..next would be Roger or Johnny Mac in his prime with a wooden racket..Each player would follow their serves to the net..I wouldn't trust Roddick, Karlovic and the Canadian missile.. between all of them, they have a total of One single grand slam title than I do..Hell , I can crank a 120-125 MPH serve and I am now Old.. however I would serve and volley..I am nobody's Fool

flawed logic as usual, we are talking serve alone and somehow you bring what slams they won. Totally irrelevant, you don't win slams just by serving. If you actually play tennis, you should know better. 120-125mph, sure make it up as you go...…bs behind the screen, your rubbish post already gave it away.

 

[tennisville]

@MikeOne, Thiem himself said that the schedule tired him out and thus not able to give his best effort in the third and fourth set. I trust he would know his body better than you know his

 

[Jelenafan]

I think it's ridiculous to say that Thiem was 100% physically. He played 3 days in a row, including 3+ hours yesterday. GSM meant his over-all over-scheduling, I suspect. Anyway, I do agree that Nadal's heavy ball and relentlessness takes a physical and mental toll on players, esp. on clay, but you can't say Thiem came in with a full tank today. I don't know if he'd have won, but he'd have been able to make more of a match in the last 2 sets.

I would say Theim was mentally exhausted from the Wimbledon conditions of his SF with Nole.

 

[Moxie]

I would say Theim was mentally exhausted from the Wimbledon conditions of his SF with Nole.

I'm thinking you mean "weather conditions," but maybe you do mean "Wimbledon conditions," since it was rain. In any case, I'm sure that's true. Mentally and physically. It was no way to go into a final v. Nadal. Good to see you around, Jelenafan!

 

[Carol]

@MikeOne, Thiem himself said that the schedule tired him out and thus not able to give his best effort in the third and fourth set. I trust he would know his body better than you know his

I see that you have not read too well what Thiem said because what really he said was that he went mentally down in the third set but he felt physically good. His problem was that he started to play too fast, crazy running all around the court, hitting the balls too hard and then he paid for that because at the other side of the net was the Champion of 11 RG (since yesterday 12) who played better and had enough weapons to stop him like he did, end of the story

 

[Carol]

Great and true article by Steve Tignor

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2019...en-12th-title-dominic-thiem-2019-final/82482/

 

[Moxie]

I see that you have not read too well what Thiem said because what really he said was that he went mentally down in the third set but he felt physically good. His problem was that he started to play too fast, crazy running all around the court, hitting the balls too hard and then he paid for that because at the other side of the net was the Champion of 11 RG (since yesterday 12) who played better and had enough weapons to stop him like he did, end of the story

Are you worried that Nadal's win will be denigrated because Thiem was diminished? I think it's fair to say that he was. It doesn't mean that he would have beaten Rafa anyway, or that Djokovic would have. The way the tournament shook out is the way that it did. Bigger point is that you don't win 12 RG titles by luck. Rafa is still better than all of them.

 

[Moxie]

@DarthFed, @Front242, @Fiero425: You all made comments about Nadal "juicing" during the Live Chat. (Rather surprising from Fiero, as that's not usually his jam.) I have told you I won't let them pass. Darth for one, and many others lamenting it wasn't Novak to face Rafa today, as the only one with a chance to beat Nadal. Had it been Novak in the final, and he'd won, history tells us it wouldn't have been in straights, and it would have been a hard fight. Had that happened, would you have been questioning how Novak could have so much energy and stamina, after 3 straight days of matches, and 3+ hours v. Thiem yesterday? A hint of suspicion, or even half as many implications that he dopes? I would suggest not...that you would just be crowing that someone took down Rafa at RG. And you wonder at Rafa's fitness today, with snide remarks about cheating, even though he is the one that had a relatively easy match on Friday, and the much easier path to the final than Thiem.

Asking for a friend.

Funny, I get crickets on this. Some people are very bold to make accusations, sliding them in when it's hard to counter, but when called out, have nothing to say. Further proof that the allegations are agenda-driven, and have no basis in reality.

 

[MikeOne]

Are you worried that Nadal's win will be denigrated because Thiem was diminished? I think it's fair to say that he was. It doesn't mean that he would have beaten Rafa anyway, or that Djokovic would have. The way the tournament shook out is the way that it did. Bigger point is that you don't win 12 RG titles by luck. Rafa is still better than all of them.

the problem here is that there is a level of exaggeration by those who aren't particularly Nadal fans. How many times have we seen tennis players play 3 sets on 2 consecutive days and then win a tournament on the 3rd day? It's happened quite a few times. Tennis players are used to this, they train to play 3 sets on consecutive days... it happens ALL the time on regular tournaments. If Thiem had gone 5 sets with Kachanov or Monfils and then played 2.5 sets fri, 2.5 sets sat, i would admit he must have had some exhaustion in finals. But Thiem blasted Monfils, beat Kachanov pretty easily.. then played 2.5 sets fri and sat, on quite cool conditions, with some breaks. Physically, i don't see how he would've been much affected by this. Someone here tells me i need to listen to Thiem, i did, actually. Thiem said he wasn't going to be tired in finals after he beat Djokovic. McEnroe said Thiem said he felt fresher this year than previous year, not sure where Mcenroe got this but he said it. So Thiem was feeling quite well physically before match and even if he lied, the facts are there for us to analyze. Again, a tennis player like Thiem is TRAINED to play 3 sets on a daily basis and he played 2.5 on two days... and two EASY routine matches before semis. The evidence for him being tired just doesn't hold up.

What i will say is that if anything, mentally he may have been a bit tired. I say mentally because even though physically 2.5 sets in cool condition is a cakewalk for someone like Thiem, mentally it must have been tough... to play #1, in windy conditions and so maybe this had some effect, mentally. As Thiem said after losing, fri/sat 'may' have left 'traces' in mind and body.

and the way i look at it, maybe he would've lost in straight sets if he HAD come in with a day's rest. He started off strong, maybe playing against Djoker the day before allowed him to start the finals on fire, he was quite hot. So you never know...

 

[tennisville]

I see that you have not read too well what Thiem said because what really he said was that he went mentally down in the third set but he felt physically good. His problem was that he started to play too fast, crazy running all around the court, hitting the balls too hard and then he paid for that because at the other side of the net was the Champion of 11 RG (since yesterday 12) who played better and had enough weapons to stop him like he did, end of the story

https://www.eirsport.ie/thiem-admits-fatigue-was-a-factor

Of course to clarify I am not saying the end result would still have been different. Nadal is a 12 time champion here and extremely hard ot beat in the final. I am just calling a spade as it is . The post was directed towards Mikeone who insisted that the 3rd and 4th sets would have played out like it would have even if Thiem had '3 days rest'

 

[tennisville]

Funny, I get crickets on this. Some people are very bold to make accusations, sliding them in when it's hard to counter, but when called out, have nothing to say. Further proof that the allegations are agenda-driven, and have no basis in reality.

I agree with you on this. I always believe it is innocent until proven guilty in such cases. I hate it when people just randomly post like this on the internet without any proof

 

[MikeOne]

https://www.eirsport.ie/thiem-admits-fatigue-was-a-factor

Of course to clarify I am not saying the end result would still have been different. Nadal is a 12 time champion here and extremely hard ot beat in the final. I am just calling a spade as it is . The post was directed towards Mikeone who insisted that the 3rd and 4th sets would have played out like it would have even if Thiem had '3 days rest'

Thiem may have lost in straight sets if he had a day's rest... maybe he wouldn't have started the match so well as he did, after having battled Djoker day before.

Thiem contradicted himself before and after match, before he said he wasn't going to be tired, then, wasn't so sure. I think he was more mentally tired than physically.... the thing is, i can even play 3 sets on 3 consecutive days and a guy like Thiem can't play 2.5 sets on consecutive days? It's totally illogical... Thiem trains to play 3 sets every day as this is what is sometimes required on the avg atp tournament, think about that. He had also breezed past his previous two opponents...

I think he may have been mentally tired after what it took mentally to beat Djoker.. but it is so illogical to me that a world class player cannot handle 2.5 sets on consecutive days, this is almost like a practice session! mentally, though, different story.

and maybe he would've lost in straights if he had played with a day's rest, maybe he would've started cold, allowed Nadal to jump on him and once Nadal does that, you're in for a straight set destruction.

 

[tennisville]

Thiem may have lost in straight sets if he had a day's rest... maybe he wouldn't have started the match so well as he did, after having battled Djoker day before.

Thiem contradicted himself before and after match, before he said he wasn't going to be tired, then, wasn't so sure. I think he was more mentally tired than physically.... the thing is, i can even play 3 sets on 3 consecutive days and a guy like Thiem can't play 2.5 sets on consecutive days? It's totally illogical... Thiem trains to play 3 sets every day as this is what is sometimes required on the avg atp tournament, think about that. He had also breezed past his previous two opponents...

I think he may have been mentally tired after what it took mentally to beat Djoker.. but it is so illogical to me that a world class player cannot handle 2.5 sets on consecutive days, this is almost like a practice session! mentally, though, different story.

and maybe he would've lost in straights if he had played with a day's rest, maybe he would've started cold, allowed Nadal to jump on him and once Nadal does that, you're in for a straight set destruction.

I mean yeah who knows how the final would have played. But the thing is you are talking about an all time great player who is rested physically and ready to go vs a good player who played 3 sets on 3 straight days. Theim did become tired after the 2 hour mark which is what normal ATP matches play in regular tournaments and started missing his regular shots.

And just to point out, there is a difference in the level of opponents you play in a local club event and the later stages of a grand slam event, they are not comparable

 

[Moxie]

I agree with you on this. I always believe it is innocent until proven guilty in such cases. I hate it when people just randomly post like this on the internet without any proof

And they do it all the time. No amount of counter-arguments, that make real sense, make them stop. But when called out...they go dark. It's cheap, and it's cowardly.