2019 Roland Garros Men's Final: Rafael Nadal vs. Dominic Thiem

[tennisville]

I am curious. Was Kermode responsible for the bad scheduling at RG?

I am not going to suggest it since I have no proof but ever since he ousted Kermode, Djokovic has been treated really unfairly by the ATP. Many of his achievements like 200 wins at slams, 250 weeks at no 1 have all been pushed under the rug and not been given the same coverage that Federer got. Further to that, he was screwed by the ATP schedule in Rome as well, the tournament immediately before this. I personally feel Thiem was just unlucky that he was in Djokovic's half

 

[tennisville]

I think Thiem is one of the fittest players on tour. I said I expected if anyone could come back on Sunday and compete, it was Thiem. Also, he's 25. But I think what he was up against was rough. I won't compare it to Bo3 competition. Look, I'm on the same side as you: I fully agree that what Nadal brings is hard to put up with for a long time. And perhaps even rested, Thiem would have folded after a couple of hard-fought sets. But I won't pretend that they were equal parts rested going into the final. That's all I'm saying.

Again I agree with this, I am not saying Nadal would have lost had Theim been fit but it was not a fair battle. Theim did not get a fair shot not because of his fault but because Forget wanted more money

 

[GameSetAndMath]

do you really think that a world top 10 tennis player will be tired after 3 easy sets one day (2,4,2), 2.5 sets one day and 2.5 sets another day? The last two days included rain delays and were in unusually cool conditions too, big factors.

What world are we living in when we diminish the fitness of a world class tennis player like this, it's sad. I bought up Madrid 2018, where Thiem went 6 tough sets in 2 days and then beat Nadal on 3rd day. This was very similar to what happened this time around.. not exact, but similar.

I also bring up how the 3rd sets have gone in each of last 3 RG finals, 1,2,1... pattern anyone?

Thiem was fine... he himself said it before the match, repeatedly. After the match, he mentioned maybe he was wrong and maybe he was tired but how many times have we seen losers rationalize and look for excuses, after a loss? I trust more what he said before the match.

Again, this is just logical. Dominic Thiem is not a USTA 4.5 player... he's world class tennis pro... 3 easy sets, followed by 2.5 sets on two consecutive days is NOT going to tire him, it's absurd to even suggest it. I have no doubt Dominic Thiem would've probably straight stetted any other player or gone 5 sets and won. Nadal is Nadal, he will torture you and by 3rd, 4th sets, it takes it toll. Happened to Stan in 2017, happened to Thiem in 2018 and happened to Thiem again in 2019. Yes, nadal was fresher... but Thiem was fine, Nadal was the problem. Come one, just analyze how i break it down...

Look, nobody will say in a prematch presser that they are exhausted and have no chance, even if they are dead tired.

 

[Moxie]

Again I agree with this, I am not saying Nadal would have lost had Theim been fit but it was not a fair battle. Theim did not get a fair shot not because of his fault but because Forget wanted more money

I don't know what the tournaments are up against when they make their decisions, but they did get bad luck with the weather. However, different decisions could have been made. The bottom half of the draw played on Tues., so that was good luck for them. Wed. was a washout. Bad luck for the bottom half of the draw. They played Thurs, and again on Friday. Here's where decisions could have been made differently, since the forecast was not great. For example, as others have said before me, why not play both men's SFs simultaneously, on PC and SL, to assure getting them both in? There were women's matches, and doubles, too, but if they had somehow split it up better, they could have played it all out on Friday. I have no idea what that does to their TV commitments, but at a certain point, you aren't being fair to the players. I suppose this is where Forget comes in (is he the RG tournament director?) and perhaps Kermode. The tournaments have to make money, but at some point you have to ask: at what expense to fair play?

That said, Djokovic was in no mood to win on Friday, so I think the result in that match would have been the same. Thiem doesn't (yet?) have the chops to hang with Nadal in a RG final, so the result would have been the same, IMO. But it would have felt like they got a fairer shake.

 

[monfed]

Expected result. RG should've postponed the final to Monday in lieu of Thiem's overplaying. But luckdal strikes again. Thiem didn't even get a fair shot to challenge Nadal in the final. Glad this sham tournament is over and hopefully grass will heal our wounds.

 

[Moxie]

Expected result. RG should've postponed the final to Monday in lieu of Thiem's overplaying. But luckdal strikes again. Thiem didn't even get a fair shot to challenge Nadal in the final. Glad this sham tournament is over and hopefully grass will heal our wounds.

Always singing that same old song about "luck." Do you really believe that's how someone wins 18 Majors? As with a net cord, luck falls on both sides of the net, and it tends to even out. Don't pretend that your boy hasn't had his fair share.

 

[Carol]

Expected result. RG should've postponed the final to Monday in lieu of Thiem's overplaying. But luckdal strikes again. Thiem didn't even get a fair shot to challenge Nadal in the final. Glad this sham tournament is over and hopefully grass will heal our wounds.

Are you still around, loser? go to cry to another place :cuckoo:

 

[monfed]

Are you still around, loser? go to cry to another place :cuckoo:

yes I'm still here, mama.

 

[Bonaca]

@MikeOne, Thiem himself said that the schedule tired him out and thus not able to give his best effort in the third and fourth set. I trust he would know his body better than you know his

He would be more rested if he won the SF on one day in straights and it wouldn’t change nothing significant looking at the outcome of the final. What else could he say? What’s your point?
He simply isn’t good enough when such an opponent is on his usual level.

 

[Bonaca]

For me it was crystal clear , after the 2nd SF Nadal becomes the winner.
Far more interesting is how will the semis end up under normal weather conditions? Pretty sure Novak would handle thiem.
And than we would have a real final.
With Nadal winning , let’s say 60:40, but what we saw against thiem was 95:5.

 

[Bonaca]

He would be more rested if he won the SF on one day in straights and it wouldn’t change nothing significant looking at the outcome of the final. What else could he say? What’s your point?
He simply isn’t good enough when such an opponent is on his usual level.

Oh I read all your Posts right now, sorry, you pointed out it’s about fairness. Yes I agree with that, it would be fair to thiem to put the final on Monday !

 

[GameSetAndMath]

One of the key problems most players have when playing with Rafa is winning a decent percentage of "long points" (with more than 9 shots). Informally, this is what is meant when one says "can player X hang with Rafa".

Thiem can indeed hang with Rafa on grueling baseline rally battle.

In fact he did so very nicely in the first set. It is reasonable to say that he could not hang with Rafa later on in the match due to accumulated fatigue.

If it is some other player, I would easily accept that it probably would not have mattered that they played for three days previously, as any way they would lose. It is difficult to say the same with Thiem, considering he is one of the few players who could actually go toe to toe with Rafa on baseline rallies.

 

[Bonaca]

Yes he could and would have won more games if rested. But not the match. In best of 2 yes, Not in best of three on Slow Clay Court.
It’s not only the baseline rallies that are necessary to beat him, but a important part. Looking at this one puzzle he can look good against him over some time, that’s it.
The three are still too good to be threatened at the biggest stages. If they are healthy / fit they win.

 

[MikeOne]

I think Thiem is one of the fittest players on tour. I said I expected if anyone could come back on Sunday and compete, it was Thiem. Also, he's 25. But I think what he was up against was rough. I won't compare it to Bo3 competition. Look, I'm on the same side as you: I fully agree that what Nadal brings is hard to put up with for a long time. And perhaps even rested, Thiem would have folded after a couple of hard-fought sets. But I won't pretend that they were equal parts rested going into the final. That's all I'm saying.

i never said they were equal, just that Thiem was ready to go 5 sets..he just couldn't maintain level.

These guys are fit enough to play 3 sets on 4-5 consecutive days, which is what it sometimes takes to win the avg. atp tour tournament! Thiem said he was perfectly fine and wasn't going to get tired in the finals... then he loses and is not so sure? Thiem was wasted in 3rd set for a simple reason - Nadal wore him out mentally and physically in the first two sets, just like Nadal did to Thiem in 2018 and to Stan in 2017! Even a Thiem with 1 day's rest would've probably been worn out after those two sets. This is why Nadal has 12 FO's... It's a physical and mental war out there, it takes its toll. My opinion is that the schedule had nothing to do with Thiem's loss and in fact, had Thiem had 1 day's rest, it could've gone against him and he could've lost in straights, as he did in 2018. He started the finals hot, Nadal not so much...

 

[don_fabio]

Great and true article by Steve Tignor

http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2019...en-12th-title-dominic-thiem-2019-final/82482/

This is a good article. Nadal is playing smarter with age and adapting his style of play, but this what he is doing in RG is ridiculuos. As much as I wanted to see some change after watching the final match I just realize how hard is to beat him there. I am not even sure that Novak would have a chance in this final.

There is a lot of talks on how well Thiem was rested and perhaps he wasn't mentally, but I feel like he also lost a match on the tactic side too. He just wants to overpower Rafa all the time and eventually makes an error. He should have mixed up his game better. Throw Nadal off rhytm, short ball, long ball, slice ball, stretch him left and right with angle mid court low balls, some dropshots like in first 2 sets..Every time he brought Nadal in he went for pasing shot and was so predictable. Where was that lob, one of the most effective shots when a guy is kissing the net? Maybe he learns from this and prepares something better next year.

Nadal is just playing insanely good on PC too, every time he is pushed he just comes out ultra agressive and every single player don't know what to do about it. It seems also that Nadal don't care so much anymore about winning the prep up tourneys, but more about finding the form even if he looses finals and semifinals, no big difference on his RG performance.

Everyone keeps hoping that Rafa is going to be overthrown in RG, but he just keeps winning. Everyone says that time is running out, but the way he plays here 1 or 2 more RGs seems reasonable enough and even at 37 he could make SF and be a threat. You will still need to deliver great tennis to bring him down.

 

[monfed]

Always singing that same old song about "luck." Do you really believe that's how someone wins 18 Majors? As with a net cord, luck falls on both sides of the net, and it tends to even out. Don't pretend that your boy hasn't had his fair share.

If Fed had 1% of dull's luck he would've won 25-30 slams by now.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

20-18-15-3-3-1-1-zero.. rest of atp tour.

won by active players. unless i forgot someone winning a sneaky major sometime or other.

including murray who could be finished with singles, but i thought i'd bump up the numbers and be inclusive.

 

[calitennis127]

BS! I used to play a lot of basketball in high school and college and what you say is just biased. I never found basketball to be more physical demanding... yes, you run up/down the court

Running up and down the court is not something minor. It adds a whole new dimension to in-game fitness. Moving side-to-side explosively is much more challenging when you have the added cardiovascular strain of running up and down a 94-foot court.

but you share the workload with teammates.

Lol....not when it comes to running up the court and moving side-to-side. How do you get teammates to run up the court for you and move your feet for you?

Sharing the workload with teammates is significant if you want to talk about the mental challenge of tennis or boxing versus basketball/football. Yes, with tennis you're out there by yourself, so there is no one else to blame. That is tough mentally, without a doubt. But even with teammates no one else can run up and down the court or move for you.

There is something called passing the ball, where you get to take many mini breaks as the other player does the work, on offense.

And in tennis you get to take mini-breaks after you hit the ball and you wait for your opponent to hit the ball back to your side, and you don't have to run that far (compared to basketball) unless your opponent hits a great drop shot or short-angle shot that you have to chase. You also get mini-breaks between points.

And, again, having to RUN vertically up and down the court constantly is a very significant difference. Tennis players don't have to run vertically like that unless they are chasing down drop shots or chasing down lobs that were hit over their head.

On defense, you do some work but depends what defense the team is playing and who you are guarding.

You also get hit and have to run through screens. And I could just as easily say that when playing tennis "you do some work" but it depends on what opponent you are playing and what kind of shots they hit.

Then you get to sit down and take a break as someone else steps in for you...

And in tennis you have changeovers. You also get to leave the court if you are a player with clout to take bathroom breaks.

Don't get me wrong, it was a workout but very similar to tennis.

The difference being that in tennis you don't have to run up and down the court constantly and you're not getting hit.

One thing i will tell you is that no basketball game will drain you as much as a 3-5 hour match consisting of long rallies... end of it.

That depends on how much playing time you get.

Djoker-Nole is the extreme but you are being disingenuous to think the avg tennis match is a walk in the park...just do some analysis, look at results.

I am not saying it's easy but it's also not as hard as you are trying to say.

and in basketball? running up and down the court, doing a little jumping, at times moving side to side.

Yes, running up and down the court is a huge difference. And moving side-to-side in basketball is not something you only do "at times." It's something you have to do on every defensive possession.

In tennis you do a lot more lateral movement with sudden changes of direction than in basketball, give me a break.

This is only true if you are talking about the biggest, lumbering post players. Guards are constantly changing direction and moving laterally, plus they have to run up and down a long court repeatedly (which tennis players do not). Guards have to do defensive slides and fight through screens, plus chase their man all over the court.

Again, i played a lot of basketball in high school and college... It is a lot running up/down court... less lateral movement and less changes of direction. Where is Stephen Curry and Clay Thomposi running side to side, stopping, changing direction? Where is that? can i see? They are running up/down the court, passing, shooting and sometimes, moving side to side when defending or dribbling past opponents, in tennis it happens A LOT MORE.

What you are doing is holding it against basketball than it is not 90% lateral movement like tennis is. Tennis is almost all lateral movement. Aside from chasing drop shots or short-angle rally shots that bounce wide off the court, there isn't much straight-line running in tennis.

You want to see Curry and Thompson run side-to-side, stop, and change direction? Then watch them on defense, or on offense when they don't have the ball and they are coming off screens to get open.

in what universe do basketball players play at max intensity all game?

They don't, they pace themselves too. But they have to run A LOT more.

tennis players get injured more often than basketball players. How many times did MJ get injured in his entire career? I can only remember 1 ankle injury and this was a guy who was roughed up often by defenders.

Because Jordan displayed a rare level of durability. Most NBA guys are not that durable.

It's the wear and tear that gets you in tennis. The avg tournament is having to play daily and if you do well, it's what, 2 hours a day for a week? In basketball? 38 mins per game and how many games per week? oh, and they take a LONG break, tennis is all year round.

80% of entrants to a pro tennis tournament are gone by the time the tournament gets to the quarterfinals. Don't act like every player on tour plays 6 matches a week. Lol

What unnatural movements are basketball players doing? none... jumping? running? hitting hundreds of serves and fh's, bh's is wear and tear on the joints... plus the lateral movement, stopping and changing directions, which happens much more often in tennis than in basketball.

There are plenty of ankle, hamstring, and groin injuries in basketball. Plus I have seen over the years far more ACL and Achilles injuries (like the one Durant just suffered) in basketball than in tennis.

So Curry is considered top 5 best basketball player and isn't more athletic than the top tennis players, how can this be?

Because Curry has a highly specialized skill in shooting, coupled with lateral quickness. But he is an exception that you should not draw general rules from.

Go watch John Wall or Derrick Rose highlights when they were younger and please try to tell me that Djokovic or Nadal are even close to being in their athletic ballpark. I'll wait.

Monfils, who is more athletic than Curry isn't top 5 in tennis.

Monfils is nowhere near as athletic as Westbrook, John Wall, or Derrick Rose. Curry is a misleading example simply because of his shooting skill.

This makes no sense if basketball is so much superior than tennis in athleticism.

Go look at John Wall high school highlights and tell me that any pro tennis player (Monfils included) is even close to that level of athleticism.

Mind you, i'm not saying the avg. tennis player is more athletic than avg. basketball player but you are grossly underestimating tennis athletes and just being silly.

I respect the athleticism of tennis players but I don't think tennis entails the same cardiovascular strain as basketball.

Tennis has become a very athletic sport and just because they are not leaping off the court and dunking, doesn't mean anything.

Yes it does. You are just talking up tennis players because tennis is obviously your favorite sport.

 

[calitennis127]

had Thiem had 1 day's rest, it could've gone against him and he could've lost in straights, as he did in 2018. He started the finals hot, Nadal not so much...

I actually agree with this, and that's why I was even more devastated that Djokovic lost. I thought on Saturday that the Thiem-Djokovic winner would have a big advantage in the first set against Nadal as a carryover with rhythm from the semifinal.

 

[Jelenafan]

People are obviously forgetting that this was Theim’s 4th best of five Match with Nadal at Roland Garos. In 2014, and then SF’s in 2017, as well as last years final. Those first 3 matches he was 0-9 against Nadal in sets won.


Having played Nadal as much as anyone these last 5 years on clay, Theim’s strategy wasn’t much different than camping behind the baseline and whaling the hell out of the ball.


The plan was to do that for five sets, if need be against Rafa.


Have my doubts that he could have kept that up even if fully rested. Standing so behind the ad court and not taking control of the baseline is attempting to win with a tough as ass strategy.


So apparently he was going to wear down Nadal over 5 sets with a one handed BH 10 feet BEHIND the baseline?


Lots of luck!