2019 Men’s Wimbledon Final: Novak Djokovic vs. Roger Federer

[DarthFed]

^^^The Tennis Intelligentsia won't see it that way; Federer was, is, and forever will be "The MAN!" When rivalries are thought or talked about it, it always winds up being about Fedal even though Nole has a winning H2H record against them both! The commentators that haven't a clue about tennis lament Fedal not being in the final! It's like they can't take a look at the record books to see Djokovic is right in there and making a name for himself as well as Fedal! :whistle:

No commentator is going to make light of the fact that Roger has done stuff like this all too often. Let's face it, these occurrences have happened to often to be considered coincidences.. As to the 2nd MP, all the commentators were implying it was a terrible play without flat out saying it.

 

[JesuslookslikeBorg]

federers brain went on holiday during the tbs..

whilst djokovic went into full "this is sparta" mode.

 

[Moxie]

federers brain went on holiday during the tbs..

whilst djokovic went into full "i am sparta" mode.

Late in the day. Did you see that 2nd set, though? When he went into green and wobbly-mode?

 

[calitennis127]

Choking is letting the pressure of the moment clearly get to you and affecting your play and decision making negatively.

Right, so Federer had the balls and the guts to hit two aces to go up 40-15 but he didn't have the strength to think rationally once up match point. Sure Darth.

It's also funny that you can't answer the question about what Federer should have done exactly.

Roger was frozen on a routine 2nd serve return acting like he didn't expect it to come back with any depth and didn't bother to move until it was too late and even then it's a ball he should be able to get back without much trouble.

You are totally understating how good of a return that was. Go to 0:57 to 1:02 of this video and look at how deep the return was. That was not an easy ball to get back:

Then he decides to play it safe and basically go for nothing on the 1st serve. Now why the fuck do you think he did that fellas?

Probably to draw a cheap error and avoid giving Djokovic a look at a second serve.

Is it a great idea for him to be aggressive most of the match and then decide he wants to engage Novak in a long rally?

Who said that he wanted to engage Djokovic in a long rally.

Then he gets a return that clearly didn't neutralize the point and instead of actually going for a shot that would at least put Novak on the run he rolls a passive and easy forehand pretty close to the middle of the court. Again why the fuck did he do that fellas? Could it be that the passive and weak play was a result of the moment and being afraid of deja vu?

Like the deja vu of hitting countless forehand errors in tight matches against Djokovic and Nadal? Maybe he wanted to keep the ball in play and not give Djokovic a cheap point off an error? Ever thought of that?

And to make matters worse he followed it in and just begged to be passed, do you think this ridiculous decision may have had something to do with the moment and panicking?

It wasn't the best set-up, no doubt. But Djokovic hit a fantastic shot that you are not showing any respect for at all.

 

[calitennis127]

I watched the match with (near-complete dispassion,)

No you didn't. Even though you did not want Federer to get #21, you internally cannot stand Djokovic's demeanor or attitude and you have made that clear many times. Were it not for Federer potentially going up 3 Slams on Nadal, you would have been all in for Federer and you know it.

and from my perspective, Roger did choke.

Because you can't stand Djokovic and want to diminish his victory.

But I'd say that Cali and Mike are rather guilty of the same kind of history re-writing to insist that Novak played pretty great.

I know, we're just being so insane for suggesting that Djokovic played great in a match against Federer that featured over 400 total points and went to a 5th set tiebreak in a Wimbledon final. Where in the world would we get the idea that Djokovic played great to win that kind of match?

Overall level for most of the match, I'd give the nod to Roger. As @britbox said, even on the Live Chat, it was Djokovic playing the big points better.

Neither Mike nor myself ever denied that. Our point is that in the big moments Djokovic was sturdier and had a more reliable game than Federer.

We've also discussed what it means to "choke" here. When the moment gets to you. I don't think that Novak so much undid Roger in the 4th, as the moment did. The win would have meant a lot to him, there was mental baggage, and he played with lack of clarity, esp. in big moments late in the match.

Okay, so did Federer "lack clarity" when he hit two aces up the middle to go up 40-15 and get a pair of match points?

I think that was obvious. Even the actual Djokovic fans admit he didn't play his best.

They're full of it too, because they see Djokovic as absolutely perfect in the way that Darth sees Federer as absolutely perfect, if their guy plays "good" or doesn't play "horrible." Neither side can ever give the opponent credit for anything.

 

[Ricardo]

Because you can't stand Djokovic and want to diminish his victory.

enough with your opinion. Federer had 32 surplus in winner to error and Djokovic just had 2, Federer was massively better in 2 sets and was slightly better in the other 3, and he ended up losing...…….not to mention set point and match point he missed, if that's not choking nothing is.

He was the better player, you just look at every significant stat and that all points to Fed......just stop your nonsense, nobody is trying to discredit Novak but he was outplayed for most of the match...….even Boris who supported Novak said that in set 1, that Fed was the better who lost the set. Not to mention the same happened in the sets after.

Every fukn set, enough said.

 

[calitennis127]

When were are not disagreeing on Nadal's game or Nalbandian's game, we actually agree on a lot cali, go figure.

Yes Mike, great minds think alike.

A choke is a double fault on match point (has happened to all big 3 i think), a missed easy volley, overhead, missing a sitting duck for a winner, hitting a drop lob etc...

Agreed.

Those two points were FAR from chokes. I don't know how many times we have to go through this. The first point was a good return from Novak which flat footed Federer, Fed tried to run around his bh and was caught flat footed. This is not a choke. The second was Fed hitting an approach with the intent to force Djokovic to come up big, Djokovic did. How people here underestimate how tough that was, down match point, with such a great volleyer at net... is beyond me.

Agreed again, but let me add this. Let's imagine the following scenarios for the 40-30 point:

1) Let's say Federer simply netted the forehand: then Darth would have said he couldn't even get the ball in play.

2) Let's say he went inside-out and Djokovic hit an excellent backhand pass. Darth would then say Federer was stupid to go to Djokovic's stronger wing.

3) Let's say Federer tried a drop shot and netted it: then Darth would have criticized him for not at least getting a regular shot in play.

4) Let's say Federer hit a drop shot a tad too high and Djokovic tracked it down and hit a winner off of it: then we would be hearing how Federer simply lost his mind and executed poorly under pressure.

5) Let's say Federer went for more on the same shot he hit and it seemingly landed in the corner but Djokovic challenged it and it was wide: then Darth would be saying that Federer went for too much and panicked.

6) Let's say Federer went for more on the same shot he hit and it barely landed in but Djokovic got it back and then Federer stayed back, played conservative, and hit an error 4 or 5 shots later. Then we would have heard from Darth that he should have gone to net because it worked all match.

7) Let's say Djokovic did not place his passing shot that perfectly and Federer finished it at the net: then we would be hearing that Federer finally handled the pressure well.

8) Let's say Djokovic simply mishit that shot into the net or wide or popped it up: then we would be hearing that Federer finally handled the pressure well.

The possibilities are endless. But Darth is acting like 20-20 hindsight settles the matter that Federer was totally weak in that moment. It could just be that Djokovic was that strong.

 

[Ricardo]

Our point is that in the big moments Djokovic was sturdier and had a more reliable game than Federer.

It's not Novak's game., it's about Fed being well KNOWN for losing matches after holding match points. So who else does that? not Rafa, not Novak, not Murray....how many times they done that combined in grand slams?

Its about him getting mental when closing out matches. too many times he did that, it's really not about his opponent suddenly becoming reliable, the serve was on his racquet. Returner is ALWAYS at the mercy of a great server in that moment, cant believe you don't see that.

Moxie is no supporter of Federer ever, in fact she digs at him time to time. Even she can see that Fed was better and choked, because there are times things are so OBVIOUS which just can't be denied.

 

[calitennis127]

enough with your opinion. Federer had 32 surplus in winner to error and Djokovic just had 2, Federer was massively better in 2 sets and was slightly better in the other 3, and he ended up losing...…….not to mention set point and match point he missed, if that's not choking nothing is.

He was the better player, you just look at every significant stat and that all points to Fed......just stop your nonsense, nobody is trying to discredit Novak but he was outplayed for most of the match...….even Boris who supported Novak said that in set 1, that Fed was the better who lost the set. Not to mention the same happened in the sets after.

I do think Federer was the better player for most of the match. But Djokovic was more clutch and I thought his level was outstanding as well. Like I said yesterday, I give both players a strong A grade for the match. I thought it was a terrific match.

 

[calitennis127]

It's not Novak's game., it's about Fed being well KNOWN for losing matches after holding match points. So who else does that? not Rafa, not Novak, not Murray....how many times they done that combined in grand slams?

Its about him getting mental when closing out matches. too many times he did that, it's really not about his opponent suddenly becoming reliable, the serve was on his racquet. Returner is ALWAYS at the mercy of a great server in that moment, cant believe you don't see that.

I do see that, but that's only if the great server hits a great serve, which you can't expect every time. So let me ask you the same question I asked Darth, which he keeps on dodging: if you were Federer's coach, what strategy exactly would you have had him use on the match points that would have been so straightforward (besides going for an ace)?

 

[DarthFed]

Right, so Federer had the balls and the guts to hit two aces to go up 40-15 but he didn't have the strength to think rationally once up match point. Sure Darth.

It's also funny that you can't answer the question about what Federer should have done exactly.



You are totally understating how good of a return that was. Go to 0:57 to 1:02 of this video and look at how deep the return was. That was not an easy ball to get back:





Probably to draw a cheap error and avoid giving Djokovic a look at a second serve.



Who said that he wanted to engage Djokovic in a long rally.



Like the deja vu of hitting countless forehand errors in tight matches against Djokovic and Nadal? Maybe he wanted to keep the ball in play and not give Djokovic a cheap point off an error? Ever thought of that?



It wasn't the best set-up, no doubt. But Djokovic hit a fantastic shot that you are not showing any respect for at all.

I never denied it was a good return but clearly Roger's footwork was lazy and slow. Even with that said it is still a ball he is putting back in play normally. As for the approach shot...I'm glad you finally posted the video. It was atrocious and shows Djoker cut it a bit too close, Roger wasn't anywhere near the fucking ball like Mike is suggesting. Roger is getting passed 95 out of 100 times there

 

[MikeOne]

and falsely accused me of saying something in 2011 (I never said Nadal was mentally weak WTF?).
.

100%!!! you and i argued about this at length! You basically claimed Nadal was in his prime 05-08 and that Novak was 'in his head' to explain all the major 2011 losses. We argued this at length and your core argument was that on grass, Nadal in 2011 was past his best, compared to 08. Similarly, you made the argument that Nadal on clay was better back in 05-08 and went to to hurl all sorts of reasons. You diminished Novak's domination of Nadal in those 6-7 straight big finals as Nadal being past his best and being a mental midget vs Novak. I remember this like it was yesterday.... you and darth are no different actually, when nadal loses, little credit to opponent. When Federer loses, darth is even worse than you....

I at least give credit to who wins. When Djoker lost to Stan i simply stated Stan is a bad match-up as he has the uncanny ability to hit through Djokovic and handle Djoker's depth. When Nadal started to lose to novak, no excuses either, i simply stated Djoker bad match-up for nadal. When Nadal lost to Federer in AO final, no excuses... Federer deserved it. I could've easily borrowed from Darth and claimed Nadal choked in 5th set vs Federer but this whole business of players choking is BS. If i recall, you made excuses for Nadal's loss to Djoker last year at Wimbledon too.. what was it again? Nadal played badly? choked?

Whilst i root against Federer, i seldom claim nadal or djoker choke or just play horrible every time they lose... you guys are way too obsessed with your player. Cali is the same, with Mr. Nalbandian..

 

[Ricardo]

Yes Mike, great minds think alike.



Agreed.



Agreed again, but let me add this. Let's imagine the following scenarios for the 40-30 point:

1) Let's say Federer simply netted the forehand: then Darth would have said he couldn't even get the ball in play.

2) Let's say he went inside-out and Djokovic hit an excellent backhand pass. Darth would then say Federer was stupid to go to Djokovic's stronger wing.

3) Let's say Federer tried a drop shot and netted it: then Darth would have criticized him for not at least getting a regular shot in play.

4) Let's say Federer hit a drop shot a tad too high and Djokovic tracked it down and hit a winner off of it: then we would be hearing how Federer simply lost his mind and executed poorly under pressure.

5) Let's say Federer went for more on the same shot he hit and it seemingly landed in the corner but Djokovic challenged it and it was wide: then Darth would be saying that Federer went for too much and panicked.

6) Let's say Federer went for more on the same shot he hit and it barely landed in but Djokovic got it back and then Federer stayed back, played conservative, and hit an error 4 or 5 shots later. Then we would have heard from Darth that he should have gone to net because it worked all match.

7) Let's say Djokovic did not place his passing shot that perfectly and Federer finished it at the net: then we would be hearing that Federer finally handled the pressure well.

8) Let's say Djokovic simply mishit that shot into the net or wide or popped it up: then we would be hearing that Federer finally handled the pressure well.

The possibilities are endless. But Darth is acting like 20-20 hindsight settles the matter that Federer was totally weak in that moment. It could just be that Djokovic was that strong.

Blablabla, how about one good serve with multiple chances, BANG and it's OVER...……...that happened so many times prior to that moment, then nothing Djoko could do. A great server like Fed should have closed him out.

Remember what Sampras used to do, no chance you come back like that. In fact none of the elites has EVER done that as many times as Federer did.

 

[MikeOne]

I never denied it was a good return but clearly Roger's footwork was lazy and slow. Even with that said it is still a ball he is putting back in play normally. As for the approach shot...I'm glad you finally posted the video. It was atrocious and shows Djoker cut it a bit too close, Roger wasn't anywhere near the fucking ball like Mike is suggesting. Roger is getting passed 95 out of 100 times there

If Djokovic would've missed that passing shot or hit it a few inches 'off' and Fed volleyed for winner, what would you be saying? NOTHING... you would be saying NOTHING.

 

[MikeOne]

Blablabla, how about one good serve with multiple chances, BANG and it's OVER...……...that happened so many times prior to that moment, then nothing Djoko could do. A great server like Fed should have closed him out.

Remember what Sampras used to do, no chance you come back like that. In fact none of the elites has EVER done that as many times as Federer did.

yes, just like Sampras did to Hewitt and Safin in 00, 01 USO finals. He put them way with serves didn't he... or how he did to federer in 01 Wimbledon?

Fed hit aces in that game, quite a stretch to ask him to hit 3-4 aces... i believe he had hit 2 to get to 40-15.. you expected him to hit 2 more? BUAHAHAHAHAHAH

 

[MikeOne]

Yes Mike, great minds think alike.



Agreed.



Agreed again, but let me add this. Let's imagine the following scenarios for the 40-30 point:

1) Let's say Federer simply netted the forehand: then Darth would have said he couldn't even get the ball in play.

2) Let's say he went inside-out and Djokovic hit an excellent backhand pass. Darth would then say Federer was stupid to go to Djokovic's stronger wing.

3) Let's say Federer tried a drop shot and netted it: then Darth would have criticized him for not at least getting a regular shot in play.

4) Let's say Federer hit a drop shot a tad too high and Djokovic tracked it down and hit a winner off of it: then we would be hearing how Federer simply lost his mind and executed poorly under pressure.

5) Let's say Federer went for more on the same shot he hit and it seemingly landed in the corner but Djokovic challenged it and it was wide: then Darth would be saying that Federer went for too much and panicked.

6) Let's say Federer went for more on the same shot he hit and it barely landed in but Djokovic got it back and then Federer stayed back, played conservative, and hit an error 4 or 5 shots later. Then we would have heard from Darth that he should have gone to net because it worked all match.

7) Let's say Djokovic did not place his passing shot that perfectly and Federer finished it at the net: then we would be hearing that Federer finally handled the pressure well.

8) Let's say Djokovic simply mishit that shot into the net or wide or popped it up: then we would be hearing that Federer finally handled the pressure well.

The possibilities are endless. But Darth is acting like 20-20 hindsight settles the matter that Federer was totally weak in that moment. It could just be that Djokovic was that strong.

with 20/20 hindsight, there are so many possibilities!

 

[Ricardo]

I never denied it was a good return but clearly Roger's footwork was lazy and slow. Even with that said it is still a ball he is putting back in play normally. As for the approach shot...I'm glad you finally posted the video. It was atrocious and shows Djoker cut it a bit too close, Roger wasn't anywhere near the fucking ball like Mike is suggesting. Roger is getting passed 95 out of 100 times there

thank god he post the video, Fed's approach shot was 3 meters from the side line, after a slice fh return (which they claim to be some kind of great return) by Djoko, and let's recap the game there...…..15-15 all, Fed served aced down the T, 30-15, unreturnable down the T so 40-15....then first serve down the T, hit the net cord or it would have been OVER. So second serve to Djoko fh, missed inside out forehand wide, which he has hit tons of winners like that prior. so 40-30, first serve down the middle (nowhere close to the T) Djoko hit slice fh return then you know what happened next.

IT was on Fed's racquet, cant believe some idiots still try to argue.

BANG, and it should have been over. it was that close, a little bit higher that serve at 40-15, and it would be truly OVER.

 

[Ricardo]

yes, just like Sampras did to Hewitt and Safin in 00, 01 USO finals. He put them way with serves didn't he... or how he did to federer in 01 Wimbledon?

Fed hit aces in that game, quite a stretch to ask him to hit 3-4 aces... i believe he had hit 2 to get to 40-15.. you expected him to hit 2 more? BUAHAHAHAHAHAH

stop making it up, you are a FUKn liar. 15-15 all he hit ace down the T, 30-15 he served first serve (unreturnable) but not an ACE, don't make it up. and do I expect to hit 2 more? YOU DIMWIT, at 40-15, he didn't need to hit 2 more.

Did I tell you that you are an idiot and liar?

In fact he only needed ONE good first serve NOT ACE, and it was over. And he had multiple chances, even in set 3. Keep lying, Fed was better and AHEAD in EVERY SET. IF you keep lying I will expose you with evidence.

You are a PROVEN liar and discredited BS.

 

[Ricardo]

with 20/20 hindsight, there are so many possibilities!

you are a proven idiot and liar, still bragging?

 

[calitennis127]

Blablabla, how about one good serve with multiple chances, BANG and it's OVER...……...that happened so many times prior to that moment, then nothing Djoko could do. A great server like Fed should have closed him out.

Remember what Sampras used to do, no chance you come back like that. In fact none of the elites has EVER done that as many times as Federer did.

I fully acknowledge that an ace would have won it, but that is very difficult to pull off. So, again, allow me to ask: short of an ace, what exactly did you want Federer to do on that 40-30 point?