2019 Men’s Wimbledon Final: Novak Djokovic vs. Roger Federer

[DarthFed]

Unforced errors in 3 TBs:

Fed 11
Novak 0

This is insane stat.

It's a special ed stat. Roger handed the TB's on a silver platter.

 

[DarthFed]

THIS IS THE GREATNESS of Novak Djokovic!!! To be able to defeat the supposed GOAT and 8 time wimbledon champ at his best when he (djokovic) is below his best. Novak will surpass all records and own nadal and federer h2h. He has toppled federer 3 times in wimbledon finals and beaten nadal at RG. He is on his way to being undisputed GOAT.

lol the 38 year old who hasn't done shit in 1.5 years was at his best apparently. He was brilliant in those TB's right?

 

[brokenshoelace]

The truth lies somewhere in the middle of what you/Darth and Mike are saying. I would not call this a "choke" in the sense that Federer simply gifted away the match points. But I also would say that Federer could have been better on match points.

I'm sure you would have been just as level headed if Federer had lost those match points the exact same way vs. Nadal... I mean, just in this thread, you claimed Federer choked away a set to Nadal in which he was 40-15 up despite that never happening... So, yeah.

Federer choked away those two points. Call it what it is.

 

[MargaretMcAleer]

Unforced errors in 3 TBs:

Fed 11
Novak 0

This is insane stat.

I just saw that stat on another website,and was going to post it.....absolutely insane stat from Novak

 

[DarthFed]

I agree on going for a bigger serve but as for the rest I think what you are totally missing is the context. Match points in the 5th set of a Grand Slam final are not always moments of strategic clarity.

Roddick came to net aimlessly over the course of matches in which he was getting destroyed with passing shots. Federer, on the other hand, had a very strong day at net yesterday (he won 51 total net points). He had reason to think/feel that something good would happen if he went to net and Djokovic did an amazing job placing a shot where he could not touch it.

You are vastly underrating the quality of Djokovic's passing shot, especially at that moment.

But you just told me a bunch of things Federer should not have done (classic 20-20 hindsight).

So I am asking you: if you were Coach Darth and you had a chance to tell Federer what to do on the match points, what would you tell him to do that would not be horrible, pathetic, etc. in your eyes? If Federer had stayed back and gotten into an 8-12 shot rally and hit an error, would that have been more tolerable to you?

I just told you what he should have done. Actually go for a 1st serve that could potentially end the match instead of hitting it right to Novak and just praying he misses. Then actually hitting an approach shot with some pace, depth, or angle that could drag Novak off the court. The weak approach had nothing on it, no pace, no depth, it was just begging to be put away into the wide open court. Roger played passively and then made a retarded decision most juniors wouldn't have made in coming to net on a total trash shot. It is a textbook choke when you factor in he should have had no problem getting Djoker's return back in play on the 1st match point. It was barely even a half volley, Roger didn't move his feet.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

Guys, the problem with Roger is having 2 match point always against Nole Not one, but two. Having something to fall back on kills you in anything in life. He is tentative with the first one, stressed out with the second. And now that it has happened three times, there is the added baggage of that.
Or not... I do not have the answers...

 

[MikeOne]

I just told you what he should have done. Actually go for a 1st serve that could potentially end the match instead of hitting it right to Novak and just praying he misses. Then actually hitting an approach shot with some pace, depth, or angle that could drag Novak off the court. The weak approach had nothing on it, no pace, no depth, it was just begging to be put away into the wide open court. Roger played passively and then made a retarded decision most juniors wouldn't have made in coming to net on a total trash shot. It is a textbook choke when you factor in he should have had no problem getting Djoker's return back in play on the 1st match point. It was barely even a half volley, Roger didn't move his feet.

no, Roger didn't choke, he just played it safe and Novak came up big. Your definition of a choke is incorrect... there were a few times Novak missed easier passing shots, off bad drop shots by Fed. The one he made was NOT EASY... Those two points were FAR from chokes, Federer just decided not to risk a lot.. taking risks is easier said than done. He misses and then you chastise him for it... to ask Roger to play the perfect points in every crucial point is ridiculous but you do it all the time. The perfect serve, the perfect approach shot... yeah, sure. Novak stepped up, hit great shots... federer didn't. MATCH OVER.

 

[calitennis127]

I'm sure you would have been just as level headed if Federer had lost those match points the exact same way vs. Nadal... I mean, just in this thread, you claimed Federer choked away a set to Nadal in which he was 40-15 up despite that never happening... So, yeah.

Federer choked away those two points. Call it what it is.

Why don’t you answer the question that Darth dodged, which is this: what strategy would you have asked Federer to employ on the match points?

My issue with how Federer has handled Nadal has had to do with the body of the match, not match points, which are in large part a Catch 22. It’s ridiculous to look at them as some kind of indicator of strategic competence.

Also, I regard a “choke” as being a fatal error in a straightforward scenario, not simply playing it cautious.

 

[MikeOne]

Djokovic truly showed his greatness last night, this match was big. Federer was playing extremely well, Djokovic was less consistent.. Novak was able to stay with Fed, take him to breakers and then played better in the bigger points. 0 UFEs in 3 breakers? That's ridiculous! That is called GREATNESS!

To steal a Wimbledon title from the 8 time Wimbledon champion like this is GREATNESS. He has now beaten Federer 3 times in a row in Wimbledon final. NO-ONE ELSE COULD EVEN DREAM OF DOING THIS - Murray, Nadal, NO-ONE! Only Novak could do this. He has also beaten Rafa at RG, albeit Rafa not at 100%, but he has beaten Rafa on clay more than anyone else. He has won 4 slams in row, all 9 masters... GENTLEMEN... He is the GOAT in the making.

 

[MikeOne]

Also, I regard a “choke” as being a fatal error in a straightforward scenario, not simply playing it cautious.

When were are not disagreeing on Nadal's game or Nalbandian's game, we actually agree on a lot cali, go figure.

A choke is a double fault on match point (has happened to all big 3 i think), a missed easy volley, overhead, missing a sitting duck for a winner, hitting a drop lob etc...

Those two points were FAR from chokes. I don't know how many times we have to go through this. The first point was a good return from Novak which flat footed Federer, Fed tried to run around his bh and was caught flat footed. This is not a choke. The second was Fed hitting an approach with the intent to force Djokovic to come up big, Djokovic did. How people here underestimate how tough that was, down match point, with such a great volleyer at net... is beyond me.

 

[DarthFed]

no, Roger didn't choke, he just played it safe and Novak came up big. Your definition of a choke is incorrect... there were a few times Novak missed easier passing shots, off bad drop shots by Fed. The one he made was NOT EASY... Those two points were FAR from chokes, Federer just decided not to risk a lot.. taking risks is easier said than done. He misses and then you chastise him for it... to ask Roger to play the perfect points in every crucial point is ridiculous but you do it all the time. The perfect serve, the perfect approach shot... yeah, sure. Novak stepped up, hit great shots... federer didn't. MATCH OVER.

Choking is letting the pressure of the moment clearly get to you and affecting your play and decision making negatively. No, it doesn't just have to be a double fault or a missed overhead, that is silly. Not that I expect you or Cali to even be the least bit reasonable of course. Roger was frozen on a routine 2nd serve return acting like he didn't expect it to come back with any depth and didn't bother to move until it was too late and even then it's a ball he should be able to get back without much trouble. Then he decides to play it safe and basically go for nothing on the 1st serve. Now why the fuck do you think he did that fellas? Is it a great idea for him to be aggressive most of the match and then decide he wants to engage Novak in a long rally? Then he gets a return that clearly didn't neutralize the point and instead of actually going for a shot that would at least put Novak on the run he rolls a passive and easy forehand pretty close to the middle of the court. Again why the fuck did he do that fellas? Could it be that the passive and weak play was a result of the moment and being afraid of deja vu? And to make matters worse he followed it in and just begged to be passed, do you think this ridiculous decision may have had something to do with the moment and panicking?

Roger panicked and the moment got to him probably in large part because he is used to blowing match points vs. Novak at majors and he is used to blowing match points at majors in general, 2nd straight Wimbledon he has lost in pathetic fashion against all odds. That is now the 5th major in QF, SF, and F stage that he has lost from match point up. Take the next 9 best players in history and I doubt they combine for that total. It is a huge huge mental block for Roger and one that Novak knows all too well about. He knew the match was done the second Roger came to net on that suicide bomb style attack.

 

[Fiero425]

^^^The Tennis Intelligentsia won't see it that way; Federer was, is, and forever will be "The MAN!" When rivalries are thought or talked about it, it always winds up being about Fedal even though Nole has a winning H2H record against them both! The commentators that haven't a clue about tennis lament Fedal not being in the final! It's like they can't take a look at the record books to see Djokovic is right in there and making a name for himself as well as Fedal! :whistle:

 

[Moxie]

I watched the match with (near-complete dispassion,) and from my perspective, Roger did choke. While I agree that sometimes the ardent Feddies can be accused of claiming that a loss is all about Roger playing poorly, as @calitennis127 accused them of above, to the point of irritation and unreasonable. But I'd say that Cali and Mike are rather guilty of the same kind of history re-writing to insist that Novak played pretty great. Overall level for most of the match, I'd give the nod to Roger. As @britbox said, even on the Live Chat, it was Djokovic playing the big points better.

We've also discussed what it means to "choke" here. When the moment gets to you. I don't think that Novak so much undid Roger in the 4th, as the moment did. The win would have meant a lot to him, there was mental baggage, and he played with lack of clarity, esp. in big moments late in the match. I think that was obvious. Even the actual Djokovic fans admit he didn't play his best. I can't believe we're still here arguing it with Mike and Cali, just because they want to tweak tails.

 

[MikeOne]

Choking is letting the pressure of the moment clearly get to you and affecting your play and decision making negatively. No, it doesn't just have to be a double fault or a missed overhead, that is silly. Not that I expect you or Cali to even be the least bit reasonable of course. Roger was frozen on a routine 2nd serve return acting like he didn't expect it to come back with any depth and didn't bother to move until it was too late and even then it's a ball he should be able to get back without much trouble. Then he decides to play it safe and basically go for nothing on the 1st serve. Now why the fuck do you think he did that fellas? Is it a great idea for him to be aggressive most of the match and then decide he wants to engage Novak in a long rally? Then he gets a return that clearly didn't neutralize the point and instead of actually going for a shot that would at least put Novak on the run he rolls a passive and easy forehand pretty close to the middle of the court. Again why the fuck did he do that fellas? Could it be that the passive and weak play was a result of the moment and being afraid of deja vu? And to make matters worse he followed it in and just begged to be passed, do you think this ridiculous decision may have had something to do with the moment and panicking?

Roger panicked and the moment got to him probably in large part because he is used to blowing match points vs. Novak at majors and he is used to blowing match points at majors in general, 2nd straight Wimbledon he has lost in pathetic fashion against all odds. That is now the 5th major in QF, SF, and F stage that he has lost from match point up. Take the next 9 best players in history and I doubt they combine for that total. It is a huge huge mental block for Roger and one that Novak knows all too well about. He knew the match was done the second Roger came to net on that suicide bomb style attack.

He didn't choke, he didn't panic... he miscalculated. He thought Djokovic would succumb to pressure and not come up with big shots, Djokovic proved Roger's calculations wrong. Keep talking, fact is Djokovic could've easily lost this if he hadn't remained sharp, he hit good shots. Next time Roger should not bank on Novak missing, he should go for it but going for it under pressure means he could miss...

Let me ask you a question and answer honestly. In those two points, what if: at 40-15 Roger actually gets ball in play, gets in a rally and novak wins the point? Novak had the clear advantage during neutral rallies. Then at 40-30, Roger goes for an ace, misses. He then hits second serve, Novak returns short, Roger goes for a 95mph fh, to the corner and shanks it... misses it badly. What would you have said? This could've easily happened, Roger would've tried what you wanted and lost the points. Then what? Would you honestly be here saying 'he didn't choke, he played the right shots, took some risks and missed' YEAH RIGHT! You would flooding this forum with 'HE CHOKED, HOW COULD HE MISS THAT? WHY DID HE GO FOR SO MUCH! ALL HE HAD TO DO WAS PLAY IT SAFE AND FORCE DJOKOVIC TO HIT A GOOD PASSING SHOT!'

So no matter what happens darth, if fed loses, there is never a way for you to say anything else other than he played horribly or choked, no matter what shots he attempts.

 

[MikeOne]

I watched the match with (near-complete dispassion,) and from my perspective, Roger did choke. While I agree that sometimes the ardent Feddies can be accused of claiming that a loss is all about Roger playing poorly, as @calitennis127 accused them of above. But I'd say that Cali and Mike are rather guilty of the same kind of history re-writing to insist that Novak played pretty great. Overall level for most of the match, I'd give the nod to Roger. As @britbox said, even on the Live Chat, it was Djokovic playing the big points better.

We've also discussed what it means to "choke" here. When the moment gets to you. I don't think that Novak so much undid Roger in the 4th, as the moment did. The win would have meant a lot to him, there was mental baggage, and he played with lack of clarity, esp. in big moments late in the match. I think that was obvious. Even the actual Djokovic fans admit he didn't play his best. I can't believe we're still here arguing it with Mike and Cali, just because they want to tweak tails.

it's just basic... when someone is forced to hit a great passing shot and he makes it, that is not a choke. This wasn't a question of choking, it was a question of Federer not playing perfect points under pressure, a tall order. You must know deep inside that wasn't a choke, if that was a choke, then everyone chokes all the time because even novak and nadal don't hit perfect shots all the time. A good play sometimes is to play percentages and force your opponent to come up big. Do you play tennis Moxie? you telling me that was an easy passing shot? Roger was at the net, only gave Novak one angle and Novak executed it to perfection... he put the FH ON THE LINE! Had Novak missed that fh a few inches to the left, its out, a few inches to his right, Federer puts his racquet on it and most likely taps volley into open court. Federer played that intentionally, banking on novak either missing or hitting it within reach and federer had open court to tap volley away... That was not a bad play, of course he could've gone for more but he intentionally made that play to force Novak to come up with a difficult shot down match point, that is smart... under pressure it's tough to do. Of course, since Novak made that difficult shot now with 20/20 hindsight, Federer should've hit it harder but in the moment, there was no telling Novak was going to make that, under immense pressure.

 

[DarthFed]

He didn't choke, he didn't panic... he miscalculated. He thought Djokovic would succumb to pressure and not come up with big shots, Djokovic proved Roger's calculations wrong. Keep talking, fact is Djokovic could've easily lost this if he hadn't remained sharp, he hit good shots. Next time Roger should not bank on Novak missing, he should go for it but going for it under pressure means he could miss...

Let me ask you a question and answer honestly. In those two points, what if: at 40-15 Roger actually gets ball in play, gets in a rally and novak wins the point? Novak had the clear advantage during neutral rallies. Then at 40-30, Roger goes for an ace, misses. He then hits second serve, Novak returns short, Roger goes for a 95mph fh, to the corner and shanks it... misses it badly. What would you have said? This could've easily happened, Roger would've tried what you wanted and lost the points. Then what? Would you honestly be here saying 'he didn't choke, he played the right shots, took some risks and missed' YEAH RIGHT! You would flooding this forum with 'HE CHOKED, HOW COULD HE MISS THAT? WHY DID HE GO FOR SO MUCH! ALL HE HAD TO DO WAS PLAY IT SAFE AND FORCE DJOKOVIC TO HIT A GOOD PASSING SHOT!'

So no matter what happens darth, if fed loses, there is never a way for you to say anything else other than he played horribly or choked, no matter what shots he attempts.

So let me get this straight, he thought the guy known as one of if not the top defensive player in history who everyone knows is a total baseline machine with deadly passing shots was just going to miss an easy as cake approach shot. And he thought this even with the history between them at majors. You do realize what happened at 2010 and 2011 USO right? That is called major mental baggage. It was the cause of Mirka not even being able to watch and the cause of the look on her face after her man fucked up badly. She knew what was going on there, everyone did except apparently for you and Cali and other Djoker homers.

If Roger goes for his shots and badly misses on multiple match points that is also a form of choking yes. I would never ever ask for him to play it safe vs. Novak or Rafa, lol. That is retarded strategy for him, the fact he was playing so passively in big moments yesterday clearly shows the pressure got to him. He will never beat Djokovic or Rafa without serving and hitting aggressively. They both are way way more consistent baseliners, both way way better defenders and they will both outrally and simply outlast him all day every day. If Roger played full matches the passive and lethargic way he played those two points he will lose 100 out of 100 to Djokovic an Nadal and would probably be owned by a lot of other guys at this point too.

 

[Moxie]

I didn't say it was an easy passing shot. And I think it was a great save by Novak. But the bigger picture is what you and Cali are ignoring. I wasn't even rooting for Roger to win. You have an agenda...that's all I'm saying. Let's be honest: are you a Djokovic fan? 'Cos even most of his fans aren't defending his level as hard as you are. You've long come around to slag Roger. I am no Federer lover. But I know the match that I watched. As it unfolded, set to set, TBs, and etc., I was frankly surprised that Roger lost. Or up until the last TB, when it looked that Novak would prevail again in that format. Also, I had always thought that if it went 5, Djokovic would win. Still, I was surprised by how well Roger held up in the 5th.

 

[DarthFed]

it's just basic... when someone is forced to hit a great passing shot and he makes it, that is not a choke. This wasn't a question of choking, it was a question of Federer not playing perfect points under pressure, a tall order. You must know deep inside that wasn't a choke, if that was a choke, then everyone chokes all the time because even novak and nadal don't hit perfect shots all the time. A good play sometimes is to play percentages and force your opponent to come up big. Do you play tennis Moxie? you telling me that was an easy passing shot? Roger was at the net, only gave Novak one angle and Novak executed it to perfection... he put the FH ON THE LINE! Had Novak missed that fh a few inches to the left, its out, a few inches to his right, Federer puts his racquet on it and most likely taps volley into open court. Federer played that intentionally, banking on novak either missing or hitting it within reach and federer had open court to tap volley away... That was not a bad play, of course he could've gone for more but he intentionally made that play to force Novak to come up with a difficult shot down match point, that is smart... under pressure it's tough to do. Of course, since Novak made that difficult shot now with 20/20 hindsight, Federer should've hit it harder but in the moment, there was no telling Novak was going to make that, under immense pressure.

I do read posts like this and seriously wonder if you are trying to bullshit or you actually believe that. It was a terrible approach shot man, I know you watch enough pro tennis. You really think that was even a remotely difficult passing shot? Are you being serious right now??

 

[DarthFed]

I didn't say it was an easy passing shot. And I think it was a great save by Novak. But the bigger picture is what you and Cali are ignoring. I wasn't even rooting for Roger to win. You have an agenda...that's all I'm saying. Let's be honest: are you a Djokovic fan? 'Cos even most of his fans aren't defending his level as hard as you are. You've long come around to slag Roger. I am no Federer lover. But I know the match that I watched. As it unfolded, set to set, TBs, and etc., I was frankly surprised that Roger lost. Or up until the last TB, when it looked that Novak would prevail again in that format. Also, I had always thought that if it went 5, Djokovic would win. Still, I was surprised by how well Roger held up in the 5th.

Ugh, don't feed the beast Moxie. I was screaming at the TV when I saw him come in on that junk. People here are just nuts I think.

 

[Moxie]

Ugh, don't feed the beast Moxie. I was screaming at the TV when I saw him come in on that junk. People here are just nuts I think.

I'm trying to be a bit reasonable. But I'm supporting your argument. I've tried to find video on it and haven't seen it again. Forgive me if my memory of that shot is not so clear as yours. I don't think the match came down to one point, tbh.