2018 Wimbledon men’s SF: Djokovic v Nadal

[Moxie]

You listed something like 5 events. And Rafa should be a lot more injured than Federer and Djokovic. That's the price for having to rely so heavily on his physicality to win. 2010 was the beginnning of Roger's slide. He was dismal after AO and the competition that year sucked as it was before Nole broke out. You can say Fed had it easy in 2004 but Rafa was already a clay monster by 2005. 2017 and 2018 have been laughably weak years competition-wise and both Fed and Nadal have taken advantage.

As I said, that was off the top of my head. I could dig deeper, as surely there are more. We've discussed on these forums the notion of Nadal being "responsible" for his own injuries. He does play a very physical style, but some of it is bad luck. Anyway, despite predictions to the contrary, he's still standing, and still playing. Much to your chagrin, I know.

I would say Fed had it easy before 2004 and well-past 2005. You could make the argument he should have done more with it. (Olympics?) It took Rafa until 2008 to challenge him on other surfaces, and who else was there? And when Rafa went really fallow '15-'16 (and I'm guessing you're saying Roger was a git since '10,) who was there to pick up the hardware? Novak. You have to admit that Roger and Novak both had a bit of an open run in their careers, at certain points, whereas Rafa really didn't. Given the injury breaks, it's rather more astonishing what he's done than either Roger or Nole.

 

[Moxie]

I LMAO in '09 when he dropped all 3 of his RR matches in London! Of course the "Tony 'PR' machine" was cranking and it was already out there about an injury and the split of his parents! Everyone's got a story; "cry me a river!" He's only famous, rich, universally loved; don't play the victim with me! Too many are truly starving or are living day to day; I just don't listen to some people's caterwauling! :whistle:

You seem to absorb a lot of petulance from Djokovic. I guess it depends which side of the fence you're on.

 

[DarthFed]

As I said, that was off the top of my head. I could dig deeper, as surely there are more. We've discussed on these forums the notion of Nadal being "responsible" for his own injuries. He does play a very physical style, but some of it is bad luck. Anyway, despite predictions to the contrary, he's still standing, and still playing. Much to your chagrin, I know.

I would say Fed had it easy before 2004 and well-past 2005. You could make the argument he should have done more with it. (Olympics?) It took Rafa until 2008 to challenge him on other surfaces, and who else was there? And when Rafa went really fallow '15-'16 (and I'm guessing you're saying Roger was a git since '10,) who was there to pick up the hardware? Novak. You have to admit that Roger and Novak both had a bit of an open run in their careers, at certain points, whereas Rafa really didn't. Given the injury breaks, it's rather more astonishing what he's done than either Roger or Nole.

How did Fed have it easy in 2005 and beyond when you had the greatest clay court player ever in the mix? Roger went fallow after AO 2010 for most of 7 years. That season was a gift for Rafa, just as much as 2015 and 2016 was for Djokovic. And 2017-2018 when Nole went fallow? The only other good player on tour is 36 years old!

Nothing Rafa's done aside from RG is as impressive as the other two. Over the course of 70% of the season he's generally inferior. If the ball isn't bouncing ridiculously high he is hardly a threat (see indoors) and real grass.

 

[atttomole]

As I said, that was off the top of my head. I could dig deeper, as surely there are more. We've discussed on these forums the notion of Nadal being "responsible" for his own injuries. He does play a very physical style, but some of it is bad luck. Anyway, despite predictions to the contrary, he's still standing, and still playing. Much to your chagrin, I know.

I would say Fed had it easy before 2004 and well-past 2005. You could make the argument he should have done more with it. (Olympics?) It took Rafa until 2008 to challenge him on other surfaces, and who else was there? And when Rafa went really fallow '15-'16 (and I'm guessing you're saying Roger was a git since '10,) who was there to pick up the hardware? Novak. You have to admit that Roger and Novak both had a bit of an open run in their careers, at certain points, whereas Rafa really didn't. Given the injury breaks, it's rather more astonishing what he's done than either Roger or Nole.

Using your reasoning, Nadal never faced competition on clay until Djokovic (2011) resolved his physical problems. No one, aside from Djkoovic could physically hang with Rafa on clay. You are baiting Fed fans here and they will be coming at you for sure.

 

[Moxie]

How did Fed have it easy in 2005 and beyond when you had the greatest clay court player ever in the mix? Roger went fallow after AO 2010 for most of 7 years. That season was a gift for Rafa, just as much as 2015 and 2016 was for Djokovic. And 2017-2018 when Nole went fallow? The only other good player on tour is 36 years old!

Nothing Rafa's done aside from RG is as impressive as the other two. Over the course of 70% of the season he's generally inferior. If the ball isn't bouncing ridiculously high he is hardly a threat (see indoors) and real grass.

How did Roger have it tough in 2005? He lost 4 matches. Or in '06 or '07, really? Rafa was a great threat on clay, but he was only a multi-surface threat after he got to 22. That was where the age difference mattered. If 2010 was a "gift" for Rafa, it was a small window. And he'd gotten injured in the AO. Nothing like the windows of opportunity without decent challenge for Federer and Djokovic. I'm sure that's obvious to everyone. Even you.

 

[Moxie]

Using your reasoning, Nadal never faced competition on clay until Djokovic (2011) resolved his physical problems. No one, aside from Djkoovic could physically hang with Rafa on clay. You are baiting Fed fans here and they will be coming at you for sure.

Actually, Soderling beat him in '09. I'm not clear as to your point.

 

[DarthFed]

How did Roger have it tough in 2005? He lost 4 matches. Or in '06 or '07, really? Rafa was a great threat on clay, but he was only a multi-surface threat after he got to 22. That was where the age difference mattered. If 2010 was a "gift" for Rafa, it was a small window. And he'd gotten injured in the AO. Nothing like the windows of opportunity without decent challenge for Federer and Djokovic. I'm sure that's obvious to everyone. Even you.

Djokovic is a year younger than Nadal. I don't think he's had any more easy periods than Rafa had. Are you ignoring that Nole just basically did what Rafa did in 2015 and 2016? And you're still not letting it sink in...the greatest clay court player of all-time started his reign in 2005, a year after Federer's prime began. Even 2013 wasn't a terribly strong year competition wise. Nole was up and down, and Fed was atrocious. I'd say Rafa had an easier 2010 than Roger's 2004 as well but we can call that a wash. The difference in competition thing never really washed but it's a common excuse for Nadal.

 

[Moxie]

Djokovic is a year younger than Nadal. I don't think he's had any more easy periods than Rafa had. Are you ignoring that Nole just basically did what Rafa did in 2015 and 2016? And you're still not letting it sink in...the greatest clay court player of all-time started his reign in 2005, a year after Federer's prime began. Even 2013 wasn't a terribly strong year competition wise. Nole was up and down, and Fed was atrocious. I'd say Rafa had an easier 2010 than Roger's 2004 as well but we can call that a wash. The difference in competition thing never really washed but it's a common excuse for Nadal.

I don't know how you keep trying to make much of Nadal before he was 22. He was great on clay. I don't know what more you expected of him, though. Federer could barely manage one major at that age.

Don't give me Rafa's sink and Nole's sink when you'll talk about Roger being crap since 2008. It's not you that's said it but Federberg has: Roger and Rafa being AWOL for a couple of years did help Nole. And the reverse is true, too. But no, the 15-16 isn't the same as the 17-18 for Rafa...since Roger had reclaimed the Fountain of Youth. Not so convenient for Rafa. Astonishingly convenient for Roger. Especially for a guy who has been crap since '06 or '10 or whatever all you claim.

 

[GameSetAndMath]

I don't know how you keep trying to make much of Nadal before he was 22. He was great on clay. I don't know what more you expected of him, though. Federer could barely manage one major at that age.

.

Did not Rafa already beat Roger in Miami in 2004?

 

[Moxie]

Did not Rafa already beat Roger in Miami in 2004?

And so, what? At 17, he was supposed to be a complete world-beater? If Roger is so fabulous, then of course he should have held off the kid for some time. And on his better surfaces. Isn't the Fedfan party-line that there wasn't weak competition if Roger was just better? And that we can't use Roger as strong competition later on, if he wasn't good competition then? I'm not sure what you're trying to say, then.

 

[DarthFed]

I don't know how you keep trying to make much of Nadal before he was 22. He was great on clay. I don't know what more you expected of him, though. Federer could barely manage one major at that age.

Don't give me Rafa's sink and Nole's sink when you'll talk about Roger being crap since 2008. It's not you that's said it but Federberg has: Roger and Rafa being AWOL for a couple of years did help Nole. And the reverse is true, too. But no, the 15-16 isn't the same as the 17-18 for Rafa...since Roger had reclaimed the Fountain of Youth. Not so convenient for Rafa. Astonishingly convenient for Roger. Especially for a guy who has been crap since '06 or '10 or whatever all you claim.

I'm not making that much of Nadal off clay but he basically was great enough on clay to swallow up everything by 2005. How exactly would we call Roger strong competition after AO 2010 and before 2017? He had 1 major and only 4 finals in that time period. Even SF's he was only making about 60% of the time.

And LOL at you saying 2017/2018 is tougher than 2015 and 2016. In the latter years you had Murray and Stan well in the mix too and even though Roger has been playing better lately he was also playing full seasons until his injury in 2016.

For 1.5 years Rafa's only competition has been a 35-36 year old part-time player that has kicked his ass. And that part-time player used to be owned by Nadal too. I'm sorry but that is not a point in his favor for strong competition or anything really. And I've hated Ralphy and his continuous Fountain of Youth for a long time. We all remember how terrible he was in 2015 and 2016, way way worse than Roger, but now he's back to flying around the court for 10 hours over 2 matches and hitting with way more power off both wings again.

 

[DarthFed]

And so, what? At 17, he was supposed to be a complete world-beater? If Roger is so fabulous, then of course he should have held off the kid for some time. And on his better surfaces. Isn't the Fedfan party-line that there wasn't weak competition if Roger was just better? And that we can't use Roger as strong competition later on, if he wasn't good competition then? I'm not sure what you're trying to say, then.

I don't think that's the Roger fan party line. We correctly point out the double standard. If Roger wasn't really any good and feasted on easy competition then he can't be included as tough competition for Rafa and Djokovic especially since he's been out of his prime for nearly a decade. Rafa and Djoker fans act as though he got better with age.

 

[Andy22]

Nadal not being able to any majors off clay is false, 50% of the time he's been injured before or at that major event, so nadal only had half of ties from he's major off clay 3/6. Unlike Djokovic, federer whos been in 100% fit in their titles def the only time nadal been 100% is 2011 finals against Djokovic, anyway, nadal def majors mostly every year.

 

[monfed]

dull has been faker's lapdog since 2011 on non-clay surfaces. dull only beats faker when he gets the mental edge on him on clay. Luckily for mowgli, RG is before Wimbledon and USO so he's able to nick some wins at Wimbledon and USO against his main rivals using RG as a crutch. This time faker tanked at RG early so dull didn't get the mental edge and we saw the consequences of that at Wimbledon.

In 2013, dull crushed faker's spirit at RG 13 and used that mental edge to beat him off clay so many times, almost at WTF too but dull is just useless indoors.

All things being equal, both fraud and faker are much better than Nadull off-clay. That is why it's hard for tennis analysts to place dull above faker even though dull has 4 more slams.

 

[The_Grand_Slam]

In 2013, dull crushed faker's spirit at RG 13 and used that mental edge to beat him off clay so many times, almost at WTF too but dull is just useless indoors.

Twice though both comprehensive victories.

Almost got bagelled in the final set TB in Montreal and everyone is aware of his meltdown in the US Open final.

WTF Indoors wasn't close though.Djokovic only faced BPs in one game(got broken in that).Had BPs in 6 return games(broke 3 times)

 

[Front242]

I don't know how you keep trying to make much of Nadal before he was 22. He was great on clay. I don't know what more you expected of him, though. Federer could barely manage one major at that age.

Don't give me Rafa's sink and Nole's sink when you'll talk about Roger being crap since 2008. It's not you that's said it but Federberg has: Roger and Rafa being AWOL for a couple of years did help Nole. And the reverse is true, too. But no, the 15-16 isn't the same as the 17-18 for Rafa...since Roger had reclaimed the Fountain of Youth. Not so convenient for Rafa. Astonishingly convenient for Roger. Especially for a guy who has been crap since '06 or '10 or whatever all you claim.

Some fountain of youth it must be that he was fatigued after just 2 mickey mouse grass tournaments to the extent that he lost to world beater Borna Coric in Halle. Clear sign of amazing fitness there alright and definitely comparable to Nadal v Del Potro and Djokovic back to back at Wimbledon.

Roger was also visibly knackered at the WTF last year and played like crap against Goffin as a result. Sorry but all the laughable claims about Federer's supposed amazing stamina since 2017 are a joke when it's obvious it's bs. It was Kieran who started it laughably claiming he was doping which is hilarious when we've all seen some of his deciding set meltdowns and especially as a fan of a guy who never gets tired.

 

[Front242]

Last year when Roger was playing much better he was more aggressive on the backhand and return of serve than he has been in years which preserves his energy as he knows he can't hang with guys half his age on the baseline. Since when does doing your utmost to win matches faster equate to better fitness lol? He may give the impression of better court coverage because of his more aggressive backhand, (it's been crap much of this year, mind you) but really all that's changed is upping the ante on the aggression.

Because fans of other players are jealous of his skill set and ability to still keep up with the younger guys and do lots of stuff their favourite player can't, they make up this bs about his fitness winning him matches, which frankly is hilarious and proves that those claiming such nonsense aren't paying very close attention, especially to the guys they support themselves...

The number of pathetic deciding set losses this year alone that Roger has had should be proof enough for those people that he DOES NOT have great stamina and luckily for non fans looks every bit his age the way he's lost them. So let's just forget that nonsense about his amazing stamina please. It's been common knowledge to the whole world watching tennis that Roger can't even play consecutive tournaments now for a long time unless there's a day's rest between matches...and even then he's screwed next match if the last one was a long one.

 

[Moxie]

I don't think that's the Roger fan party line. We correctly point out the double standard. If Roger wasn't really any good and feasted on easy competition then he can't be included as tough competition for Rafa and Djokovic especially since he's been out of his prime for nearly a decade. Rafa and Djoker fans act as though he got better with age.

I believe I said the same thing as the the Fed fan policy page. And it's really only commentators on TV that say Roger has gotten better with age. Around here we've discussed it and I think most agree that it's generally a silly thing to say. A lot of players get smarter with age and improve some shots, but I think we all agree that age is not your friend in professional sports.

 

[Moxie]

Some fountain of youth it must be that he was fatigued after just 2 mickey mouse grass tournaments to the extent that he lost to world beater Borna Coric in Halle. Clear sign of amazing fitness there alright and definitely comparable to Nadal v Del Potro and Djokovic back to back at Wimbledon.

Roger was also visibly knackered at the WTF last year and played like crap against Goffin as a result. Sorry but all the laughable claims about Federer's supposed amazing stamina since 2017 are a joke when it's obvious it's bs. It was Kieran who started it laughably claiming he was doping which is hilarious when we've all seen some of his deciding set meltdowns and especially as a fan of a guy who never gets tired.

I'm only quoting a LOT of journalists on the "fountain of youth" vis-a-vis Roger. (The LA Times, Esquire, Times Free Press, and numerous others...you can just google it. I won't even bother looking for the videos of the number of times it was said on air.)

As to Nadal, your claims that he never gets tired are pretty far out of date. He was visibly flat in the AO '17 final, and you'll remember I complained that he had one day less rest after a 5-set SF. You just repeat that hackneyed old line because it suits your agenda. They're older, and they get more tired. And sore. You can say that Rafa's style is to put in more yards, but he's still 5 years younger, and has 300+ fewer matches on his body. Of course he is likely still a bit fresher in the body than Roger.

So, if I seem to make an implication about Roger, it's just to combat your and Darth's endless ones about Rafa. A taste of your own medicine. What's hilarious is that you feel it's so ironic that Nadal fans would point the finger back at you. You're so convinced by the unfounded allegations you've been spewing for so long that you can't even see the double-standard of your own claims.

 

[Front242]

I'm only quoting a LOT of journalists on the "fountain of youth" vis-a-vis Roger. (The LA Times, Esquire, Times Free Press, and numerous others...you can just google it. I won't even bother looking for the videos of the number of times it was said on air.)

As to Nadal, your claims that he never gets tired are pretty far out of date. He was visibly flat in the AO '17 final, and you'll remember I complained that he had one day less rest after a 5-set SF. You just repeat that hackneyed old line because it suits your agenda. They're older, and they get more tired. And sore. You can say that Rafa's style is to put in more yards, but he's still 5 years younger, and has 300+ fewer matches on his body. Of course he is likely still a bit fresher in the body than Roger.

So, if I seem to make an implication about Roger, it's just to combat your and Darth's endless ones about Rafa. A taste of your own medicine. What's hilarious is that you feel it's so ironic that Nadal fans would point the finger back at you. You're so convinced by the unfounded allegations you've been spewing for so long that you can't even see the double-standard of your own claims.

This is a Nadal fan myth because there of course has to be some reason to justify losing to Roger at a slam after all these years. I mean it couldn't possibly be that Roger is simply a much better player on fast hard courts now could it?! Ever since that AO court was speeded up it's advantage Roger over Rafa and Novak and this is not a stamina thing. There is no double standard thing, Roger has never outlasted any opponent by running down every damn ball in a godawful, ugly game of cat and mouse. Any time he's had long matches he's pretty much been poor the following match and either barely scraped through or lost badly. A bit different from old Rafa methinks in that regard.

Btw, the only flat in that AO 2017 final was he was flat out outplayed and it should have been over in 3 sets only for Roger's inexplicable mid match lapses. The rest of their 2017 matches proved that point too.

And regarding the fountain of youth comments by various sites and journalists, sure I saw loads of them, doesn't make it any less retarded when I read it again here. Guess they must have missed all the ugly deciding set losses that never should have happened.