2017 RG Final: Wawrinka vs Nadal

Who wins?

  • Nadal in 3

    Votes: 3 21.4%
  • Nadal in 4

    Votes: 8 57.1%
  • Nadal in 5

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Wawrinka in 3

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Wawrinka in 4

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Wawrinka in 5

    Votes: 1 7.1%
  • Nadal loses less than 12 games and beats his 2008 record

    Votes: 2 14.3%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .

MikeOne

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I don't see Rafa doing well at Wimbledon since he hasn't done well there in forever. Too many dangerous servers/big hitters can take him out, and that's not even counting the good players. I think he's struggled on grass since his knees became sort of shot in 2012 ("shot" is a big exaggeration, obviously). Definitely affected his movement since and he struggles do go down low when he needs to and his movement has looked awkward on that surface for a while now. Not that he was ever fully comfortable but he reached 5 finals in 5 appearances, which is hugely impressive.

I recall you arguing that Nadal of 2010 was inferior to Nadal of 05-07 because he was 'slower' when his best years have been 2008, 2010 and 2013. Now you are arguing that since 2012, his knees are 'shot'. This year, Nadal has looked as good as ever, perhaps a bit below 2010 and 2013. Back in 2008, did Nadal make AO finals? he was decimated by Tsonga. His FO win this year was as dominant or more dominant than in 2008. This year, i have seen 0 evidence of bad knees or physical issues.

When it comes to Wimbledon, i don't think it has anything to do with his knees... I think Nadal has always struggled on grass. With the exception of 2008, he had to get past 5 set matches to get to finals, he has always been vulnerable in early rounds. The problem is not his knees, it's that Rafa enters grass court season after dominating on clay and getting too accustomed to clay, then in early rounds of Wimbledon, he is trying to adjust to grass when grass isn't worn out yet. To compound his problems, he runs into guys that do nothing outside of grass but on grass, are very dangerous. If he gets past early rounds, he is a different player and harder to beat... Given he hasn't done well in previous years, he has less confidence too so this makes him even more vulnerable in early rounds.
 
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Front242

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This is the biggest break between the French Open and Wimbledon since 1895 apparently. The latest Wimbledon has started since then. Starts July 3rd. So it's good extra recovery time for all the players.
 

brokenshoelace

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I recall you arguing that Nadal of 2010 was inferior to Nadal of 05-07 because he was 'slower' when his best years have been 2008, 2010 and 2013.

Well, you need to work on your recollection. I argued, and still do, that Nadal of 2010 was inferior to Nadal of 2008, not 05-07. What kind of an idiot would argue that the well-rounded player who won 3 slams on 3 separate surfaces in 2010 is worse than the one-dimensional clay courter of 2005-2007? Are you seriously saying I ever argued that? Nadal never even reached a major semi final on hards until 2008.

On natural surfaces, I don't think it's even debatable. Nadal of 2008 was better. On hards, he definitely became a better, smarter, player since 2010. And he's better now on hards than he was even in 2008.

Now you are arguing that since 2012, his knees are 'shot'. This year, Nadal has looked as good as ever, perhaps a bit below 2010 and 2013. Back in 2008, did Nadal make AO finals? he was decimated by Tsonga. His FO win this year was as dominant or more dominant than in 2008. This year, i have seen 0 evidence of bad knees or physical issues.

Well, luckily, to avoid someone taking it out of context, I specified that "shot" is a huge exaggeration. That of course, didn't stop you from doing just that. Once again, Nadal was better on natural surfaces in 2008. He's a better hard court player now than he was then which I never argued against. So yeah, him making the AO final now when he got destroyed by Tsonga then makes sense (although the Tsonga who showed up that day crushes any version of Nadal).

And now I remember why I never fully agreed with your posts, it's because you misunderstand basic points. I am not saying Nadal's knees are hurting him now. So yes, of course you're not going to see evidence of injuries or physical issues. He's clearly healthy. However, years of tendinitis and knee injuries have taken their toll to where he clearly doesn't move as well as he used to (and the fact that he's 31). Moreover, that long layoff in 2012 definitely affected his movement permanently. He still moves as well anyone on tour but he's not quite as fast as he used to and he's clearly struggling on grass since. Please don't give me the whole "he's never been good on grass" bullshit... He got straight setted by Steve freaking Darcis, who has absolutely zero weapons. Or do you just conveniently bring up results when it suits your narrative?

Struggling in the early rounds of Wimbledon is one thing (you can say he struggled all you want, he always got past them), and not making it out of the fourth round since 2011 is another thing altogether. Are you seriously saying nothing has changed? Then explain 5 straight finals followed by the abomination that we've seen since 2012? If nothing's changed, don't you think he would have at least fluked out a quarter final appearance?

Maybe he'll do it this year. I'm not saying his knees absolutely prevent him from doing so. I'm saying they have affected his game on grass and he hasn't been able to adjust, mainly due to movement. I actually think he looked very good at Wimbledon in 2014 but Kyrgios had a insanely good day. I really think Rafa looked pretty good that year. Other than that he's looked like shit.
 

MikeOne

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Well, you need to work on your recollection. I argued, and still do, that Nadal of 2010 was inferior to Nadal of 2008, not 05-07. What kind of an idiot would argue that the well-rounded player who won 3 slams on 3 separate surfaces in 2010 is worse than the one-dimensional clay courter of 2005-2007? Are you seriously saying I ever argued that? Nadal never even reached a major semi final on hards until 2008.
I recall you argued that Nadal of 05-07 was faster and that Nadal of 08 was better than Nadal of 2010 because Nadal of 2010 was slower etc.. I recall this argument clearly. What i took issue is that you came up with this to explain Nadal's woes against Djokovic in 2011. Basically, as Nadal was getting beaten by Nole in 2011, your argument was basically that it was because Nadal had physical problems, slower etc... I then pointed out that Nadal's 2010 season was better than his 2008 season and even his 2013 season was better than Nadal's 08 season. Nadal himself has recently said that 08 wasn't his best year, it was either 13 or 10. My main issue with your argument is that it was all to make excuses for why Nadal was losing to Nole but if you consider that Nadal was making final after final and only losing to Nole (a possessed Nole), there was little evidence that he was slower or not at his best. Now you are making the same physical excuses to explain Nadal's woes at Wimbledon. Did you just see how Nadal swept everyone at FO this year? There is no way that a Nadal with knee issues wouldn't come close to dominating as he did.

On natural surfaces, I don't think it's even debatable. Nadal of 2008 was better. On hards, he definitely became a better, smarter, player since 2010. And he's better now on hards than he was even in 2008.
So basically, he improved on grass between 06-07, then peaks in 08 and then improves on hards but inexplicably his grass court game goes to crap? Makes little sense to me. He had a great 08 Wimbledon run, but this doesn't mean he just forgot to play on grass after 08. Now we can argue that perhaps he worked on his hard court game and not grass but this is counterintuitive because if someone improves his hard court game, his grass court game should also improve. Let me remind you that Nadal won 2010 Wimbledon and made finals of 2011 Wimbledon, only losing to Djokovic in finals. A baby Djokovic took a set off Nadal in 07 Wimbledon semis, any reason to believe 08 Nadal would've beaten 11 Djokovic on grass? You also can't say for sure that dangerous grass courters like like Kyrgios, Dustin Brown couldn't have taken out Nadal at 08 Wimbledon, we will never know. Now i think you can argue that 08 Nadal peaked on grass (i'm not sure that's the case based on what i have said here) but to use knees as the reason makes little sense and here's why. Which surface is the hardest on the knees? hard courts, right? So how can Nadal peak on hards in 2010-2013 but suffer on grass due to his knees? If he did have knee probs then his hard court game would've suffered the most.



Well, luckily, to avoid someone taking it out of context, I specified that "shot" is a huge exaggeration. That of course, didn't stop you from doing just that. Once again, Nadal was better on natural surfaces in 2008. He's a better hard court player now than he was then which I never argued against. So yeah, him making the AO final now when he got destroyed by Tsonga then makes sense (although the Tsonga who showed up that day crushes any version of Nadal).

And now I remember why I never fully agreed with your posts, it's because you misunderstand basic points. I am not saying Nadal's knees are hurting him now. So yes, of course you're not going to see evidence of injuries or physical issues. He's clearly healthy. However, years of tendinitis and knee injuries have taken their toll to where he clearly doesn't move as well as he used to (and the fact that he's 31). Moreover, that long layoff in 2012 definitely affected his movement permanently.
but he had his best hard court season ever in 2013 so how is this possible if he indeed was not the same due to past knee problems? isn't hard courts the toughest on knees? see my point?

He still moves as well anyone on tour but he's not quite as fast as he used to and he's clearly struggling on grass since. Please don't give me the whole "he's never been good on grass" bullshit... He got straight setted by Steve freaking Darcis, who has absolutely zero weapons. Or do you just conveniently bring up results when it suits your narrative?
He has always been vulnerable on grass, regularly battling 5 setters and tough matches even in years when he made finals. You can't say for sure that Dustin Brown, kyrgios wouldn't have beaten him in 08. My point is that using knees as an excuse is counterintuitive because how can a player improve on hards but worsen on grass due to knees? makes no sense.

Struggling in the early rounds of Wimbledon is one thing (you can say he struggled all you want, he always got past them), and not making it out of the fourth round since 2011 is another thing altogether. Are you seriously saying nothing has changed? Then explain 5 straight finals followed by the abomination that we've seen since 2012? If nothing's changed, don't you think he would have at least fluked out a quarter final appearance?

Maybe he'll do it this year. I'm not saying his knees absolutely prevent him from doing so. I'm saying they have affected his game on grass and he hasn't been able to adjust, mainly due to movement. I actually think he looked very good at Wimbledon in 2014 but Kyrgios had a insanely good day. I really think Rafa looked pretty good that year. Other than that he's looked like shit.
again, how can he improve on hards but worsen on grass due to knees? This is very tricky for you to explain. My issue isn't necessarily that you argue Nadal peaked on grass on 08 (it's debatable but i can see why you would say this) it's that you point to knees as the reason.
 
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Carol

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Wait, didn't reach Rafa some finals in Wimbledon and two Trophies? I think it's a very good record in spite of his bad results of these last years. He is healthy and serving much better so maybe he will be ready to do something good unless someone makes another 36 aces and playing his match of his life and then I'd like to know who will be the brave that could pass that tough test.....:eek:
 

Front242

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Wait, didn't reach Rafa some finals in Wimbledon and two Trophies? I think it's a very good record in spite of his bad results of these last years. He is healthy and serving much better so maybe he will be ready to do something good unless someone makes another 36 aces and playing his match of his life and then I'd like to know who will be the brave that could pass that tough test.....:eek:

Dustin Brown and Steve Darcis didn't serve 36 aces. Just saying. There's more to it than aces.
 

GameSetAndMath

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While there is at least 75% chance that Rafa would be taken out by some big server/hitter before QF at Wimbledon, in the event he makes it to QF, Rafa for sure has decent chances afterward playing in the worn out grass of second week.
 

the AntiPusher

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I have a feeling this is it for Stan and Slam finals
`this is it for Stan"

My gosh dude where do you come up with this madness.. he just won the USO.. made the semi finals of AO and the finals at RG.. what do you base your assumptions on a certain alignment of the stars
 
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the AntiPusher

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While there is at least 75% chance that Rafa would be taken out by some big server/hitter before QF at Wimbledon, in the event he makes it to QF, Rafa for sure has decent chances afterward playing in the worn out grass of second week.
I am surprised that you don't have it higher..why dont you shoot for 95 % or higher
 

Front242

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`this is it for Stan"

My gosh dude where do you come up with this madness.. he just won the USO.. made the semi finals of AO and the finals at RG.. what do you base your assumptions on a certain alignment of the stars

Maybe he meant winning them, not reaching them :)
 

Denis

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Congrats Nadalites with La Decima, an impressive feat! I don't think there will be a better player on clay ever, his game is of another world on this surface.

Also, noteworthy that in terms of games lost Nadal did better than 2008. His competition was only able to push him to four lost games max in three different sets (Paire, Haase, and Thiem). What a run!
 

the AntiPusher

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Congrats Nadalites with La Decima, an impressive feat! I don't think there will be a better player on clay ever, his game is of another world on this surface.

Also, noteworthy that in terms of games lost Nadal did better than 2008. His competition was only able to push him to four lost games max in three different sets (Paire, Haase, and Thiem). What a run!
Also Congrats to Stan..He had one heck of a tournament.. Dolgopo, Fognini, Monfils, Cilic, Murray and Rafa.. that's a reall murderous row.. Heck I dont even know who he played in the 1st round
 

GameSetAndMath

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What a contrast between AO'17 and RG'17. The former was highly unpredictable, whereas the later was totally predictable.
 

the AntiPusher

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Pretty predictable all the way through this clay season. As soon as I saw Nole's form this year and Rafa playing decent on HC I already penciled him in for this one.

10 is amazing but not as amazing as the 12+ he is going to finish with. There is no one aside from Djokovic to challenge him there for 3 more years at least and who knows if Djokovic ever becomes good again. I hope Roger is watching and ready because I don't think 18 is enough and he has been underachieving at Wimbledon for years, last title being in 2012. Past time for #8 and maybe #9 next year.
Really when he destroyed Novak at Madrid.. the Tennis World knew Rafa was ready to win grand slams championships again.. This is good for the game of tennis
 

rafanoy1992

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As a Rafael Nadal fan, the main reason I am very happy with this title is because he finally surpassed Pete Sampras in the GS title count. So, unless Djokovic wins 4 more slams AND Nadal does not win another major then Nadal will be in the Top 2 all time in GS count.

In my opinion, the best stat about this "La Decima" title is that he did not lose a single set! Who would've thought a 31-year old Rafael Nadal will win a GS title without losing a set?! I know the competition is not the best right now but to win a GS title without dropping a set at age 31 is pretty remarkable!

One last thing: my favorite stat of Nadal in Roland Garros is he is 10-0 in the finals and not of those single finals went to a deciding 5th set!
 
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