2017 Australian Open Final: FEDAL XXXV

[GameSetAndMath]

The main difference in the backhand of Roger, this time is that he went for more drive shots and
winners than typical of him. Usually, he does a slice about 2/3rd of the time.

Remember what happened to JMDP when he came back from wrist injury, but not fully healed.
He could only place slice on the backhand and everybody knew it and so everybody took advantage of it.

It is the same story with Roger's backhand (but to a lesser extent and without injury) when he plays Rafa. Most of the time he keeps slicing and sooner or later coughs up an error. This time he said to heck with it. I am going for it. May be it will be an UFE or may be it will be an winner (or at the very least it will be a difficult shot for Rafa). That is why Rafa was surprised often by Roger's backhand shots.

p.s. Unlike some Fed fans, I would admit that Rafa was bit tired in the final. However, I strongly feel that was not the deciding factor of this match by any means. The deciding factor was the aggression of Roger.

I can do business with this. We can easily agree to disagree about what Rafa would have been like if he hadn't been so tired. But I appreciate your candour here, and I accept your faith in federer because of it. You believe that despite rafas fatigue, federer was too aggressive. I disagree. I think that's cool...

You can do business with my admission that Rafa was bit tired. But, you cannot do business with the fact that Roger was playing groin injury. If Rafa was tired, Roger had injury and they cancel each other out and therefore there should be no excuses.

 

[Kieran]

The main difference in the backhand of Roger, this time is that he went for more drive shots and
winners than typical of him. Usually, he does a slice about 2/3rd of the time.

Remember what happened to JMDP when he came back from wrist injury, but not fully healed.
He could only place slice on the backhand and everybody knew it and so everybody took advantage of it.

It is the same story with Roger's backhand (but to a lesser extent and without injury) when he plays Rafa. Most of the time he keeps slicing and sooner or later coughs up an error. This time he said to heck with it. I am going for it. May be it will be an UFE or may be it will be an winner (or at the very least it will be a difficult shot for Rafa). That is why Rafa was surprised often by Roger's backhand shots.

p.s. Unlike some Fed fans, I would admit that Rafa was bit tired in the final. However, I strongly feel that was not the deciding factor of this match by any means. The deciding factor was the aggression of Roger.

I can do business with this. We can easily agree to disagree about what Rafa would have been like if he hadn't been so tired. But I appreciate your candour here, and I accept your faith in federer because of it. You believe that despite rafas fatigue, federer was too aggressive. I disagree. I think that's cool...

You can do business with my admission that Rafa was bit tired. But, you cannot do business with the fact that Roger was playing groin injury. If Rafa was tired, Roger had injury and they cancel each other out and therefore there should be no excuses.

Well, we know Roger had a groin injury, only because he told us so. As ever, he's generous that way. We saw no ill effects in terms of movement, and no diminishment of energy or aggression, twisting, stretching, bending, turning, over the course of his third fifth set match in a week. We got to admire his actually unbelievable conditioning, and stamina, while marvelling at his ability to ignore pain, despite the effect a groin strain obviously has on a player.

That Rafa was tired is self-evident, and obviously not an excuse. It's a statistic. It's a fact. It's a reason why he was unable to play as well as he had in the rest of the tournament, and as assertively as he usually does against federer. It's also not an excuse because for the umpteenth time I've laid the blame for this solely at Rafa's door..

 

[Front242]

Self-evident and not a stat lol? Did you see Roger v Stan? His movement was terrible towards the end of the match and got worse after set 2 ended. He went from playing great to losing a 6-1 set. I personally can't see that Nadal was that tired. He was running all over the place in set 5 so if he was able to run all over the place in the final set of the match then he can't have been that tired really.

Btw, players can be pumped full of anti inflammatories but they don't last a whole match and I wouldn't really go down the route of "as ever, he's generous that way" referring to Roger disclosing an obvious injury to anyone who saw him versus Stan 'cos Nadal, uncle phoney and his fans have been using the injury card excuse his whole career. I frankly have no idea how he managed to beat Stan as he was moving very poorly towards the end. It's no secret, Nadal only apparently loses 'cos he's injured or in this case we can add 'cos he's tired. Aw, poor Rafa. Life is so unfair.

 

[El Dude]

It's also not an excuse because for the umpteenth time I've laid the blame for this solely at Rafa's door..

I'm torn between thinking that you are deliberately spinning, or you really don't get why this is problematic. I'll assume the latter.

Kieran, by laying the blame solely on Rafa's door you are saying the match was entirely in his hands, and if only X had happened differently, he would have won. This negates the brilliance of Roger, the idea--seemingly anathema to some Rafa fans--that he won on his own merits. I mean, there is simply no way Roger could beat Rafa without something being wrong with Rafa, right?

I get it - this happens after every loss by any player. Fans of the loser find reasons for why their player wasn't up to par, which is a way of saving face for their player (and thus, presumably, the fan through psychological transference). I've done it with Roger, been frustrated because he seems to play great to get to a Slam final, and then folds in the final. This happen three times in 2014-15. But in every case, the winner of the Slam has a lot to do with it as well - I'll admit to that. The winner being, in all three cases, Novak Djokovic in his absolute prime.

Let's use the example of Wimbledon 2015. That one was particularly painful, because Roger looked terrific in the early going, destroying Andy in a virtuoso semifinal. And then he seemed to lose his brilliance in the final, losing to Novak. But Novak had something to do with that, right? To say otherwise and put the blame solely on Roger would be silly and insulting to Novak.

Look, the bottom line--in my view--is that Roger and Rafa both had some obstacles going into the AO, but both--astonishingly--overcame them to reach the final. Roger simply took it up a higher notch than Rafa did. He sustained it longer, played better, and won the match on his own power. It doesn't take anything away from Rafa's greatness to accept that. All it does is slightly lessen his dominance over Roger. But that historical dominance still exists.

 

[El Dude]

I would also add to what Front said, by saying that saying Rafa was tired is to state the obvious. Any player would be tired in the 5th set of the final of a Slam. But I don't think I've ever seen a match where Rafa's degree of fatigue stopped him from winning.

 

[Kieran]

There are certain thing I give federer credit for of course, chief among them his unprecedented conditioning, and I never disputed that at times his play was excellent. This is to miss the point I'm making. At times we rhapsodise too easily, too cheaply, that it assumes a form of dogma, when really there's often more to it. As for the idea that the match is on rafas racket; buddy, he's playing a bloke who's 36 in a few months, had played two five set matches in the space of a few days, had said he has a groin strain - and Rafa owns him at this level. You might believe the exceptional happened one way, but I watched the same things and believe otherwise...

 

[El Dude]

 

[Kieran]

According to you, brother. I might easy post a cheesy gag likat below your post, also. Just remember, the Nile is a River in Egypt.

 

[Front242]

There are certain thing I give federer credit for of course, chief among them his unprecedented conditioning, and I never disputed that at times his play was excellent. This is to miss the point I'm making. At times we rhapsodise too easily, too cheaply, that it assumes a form of dogma, when really there's often more to it. As for the idea that the match is on rafas racket; buddy, he's playing a bloke who's 36 in a few months, had played two five set matches in the space of a few days, had said he has a groin strain - and Rafa owns him at this level. You might believe the exceptional happened one way, but I watched the same things and believe otherwise...

I like how you keep putting in the digs about Federer's exceptional conditioning as it's been a career long cloud of suspicion hanging over Nadal when it comes to stamina so might as well throw Federer under the rug too even when there's really not a whole lot of evidence of him winning long matches. His 5 set record after all is extremely poor given who he is and he lost a lot due to running out of gas in the 5th. In some cases he's admitted tanking sets to conserve energy for a 5th (the consecutive USO debacles where he was in the driving seat most of the matches and had 2 match points each time and still lost). That's surely not an example of a guy who has exceptional conditioning that he needs to munch some breadsticks to gain some energy for the final set. These matches btw were in 2010 and 2011 when he was younger so he's not getting fitter as he gets older. The only reason he's winning the 5th set battles now is the greatly improved backhand, bigger racquet head and a lot more mental resilience, coupled with all out aggression. Win or lose, he's going down attempting winners. And it worked. It probably won't always work.

If you look at the highlights, Federer takes a lot of short steps and changes direction with ease and he's rarely running full speed like Nadal so he doesn't get out of puff as easily unless he's playing a guy who runs him ragged all match. Nadal often does but the quicker court speed didn't allow him this time, thanks to Roger's ability to hit winners off both wings much easier than in previous AO matches. I also posted the stats again and it shows it's not all about conditioning at all. It's about the ability to win matches quicker due to aggressive style of play and exceptional shot making skills.

Nadal:
Total time spent on court: 18 Hours 56 Minutes
Total metres covered: 18243.7
Sets (Won-Lost): 18-5

Federer
Total time spent on court: 13 Hours 37 Minutes
Total metres covered: 10060.8
Sets (Won-Lost): 18-5

That's a massive difference in distance covered and is all down to choice, namely style of play. Federer goes for winners more and therefore runs less and plays shorter matches. Feel free to think there's more to it than that but the stats don't back it up. They show why he's fresher despite the age difference. He simply runs around a lot less and gets off the court way quicker. Djokovic too has a problem finishing off lesser opponents in the early rounds and frequently plays long matches when there's no need to while Federer is off the court against many of the early round opponents in 1.5-2 hours. It's got less to do with age and more to do with ability or lack of: Djokovic and Nadal don't have the same shot making skills required to beat players as quickly and easily as Federer and yes, Federer, is pretty ancient for the ATP tour, but he's winning matches with shot making first and foremost and not stamina. He lost a 6-1 set against Wawrinka. These kind of sets don't sap your energy as you're hardly going all out and losing 6-1.

 

[Kieran]

Now buddy, don't be lowering the tone. You declared it all as FUBAR, in the appropriate thread for this sort of shenanigans. People in work think I'm saying food-bar when I use this term, they belch and make some space for a feed that isn't coming. One of 'em even thought I'd said "rhubarb" and wisely said "ugh, no thanks!"

I didn't fully agree with you there, because you also said "RIP tennis." I would certainly hope not...

 

[Carol]

The main difference in the backhand of Roger, this time is that he went for more drive shots and
winners than typical of him. Usually, he does a slice about 2/3rd of the time.

Remember what happened to JMDP when he came back from wrist injury, but not fully healed.
He could only place slice on the backhand and everybody knew it and so everybody took advantage of it.

It is the same story with Roger's backhand (but to a lesser extent and without injury) when he plays Rafa. Most of the time he keeps slicing and sooner or later coughs up an error. This time he said to heck with it. I am going for it. May be it will be an UFE or may be it will be an winner (or at the very least it will be a difficult shot for Rafa). That is why Rafa was surprised often by Roger's backhand shots.

p.s. Unlike some Fed fans, I would admit that Rafa was bit tired in the final. However, I strongly feel that was not the deciding factor of this match by any means. The deciding factor was the aggression of Roger.

I can do business with this. We can easily agree to disagree about what Rafa would have been like if he hadn't been so tired. But I appreciate your candour here, and I accept your faith in federer because of it. You believe that despite rafas fatigue, federer was too aggressive. I disagree. I think that's cool...

You can do business with my admission that Rafa was bit tired. But, you cannot do business with the fact that Roger was playing groin injury. If Rafa was tired, Roger had injury and they cancel each other out and therefore there should be no excuses.

What injury are you talking about? the same that he said when he was playing vs Wawrinka but later he contradict himself saying something different? come on! you should say that after 8 minutes to start the fifth set he got un incredible energy which he didn't have in the whole match, "groin" what? my boots!

 

[Front242]

Such incredible energy he was quickly down 3-1. Sigh. Nadal fans :cover My bad, you said un incredible energy so you agree he didn't have incredible energy. You might think someone who was up until then leading the match by a country mile having won set 3 by 6-1 may be getting a bit p1$$ed off that he was now losing the match and therefore went all out to try and recapture the lead? No, that would never happen lol :nono

 

[Carol]

Such incredible energy he was quickly down 3-1. Sigh. Nadal fans :cover My bad, you said un incredible energy so you agree he didn't have incredible energy. You might think someone who was up until then leading the match by a country mile having won set 3 by 6-1 may be getting a bit p1$$ed off that he was now losing the match and therefore went all out to try and recapture the lead? No, that would never happen lol :nono

Lol, that's my point, he got the energy 8 minutes after to get the MTO:cover because his "groin injury massage" took 8 minutes to get the good results :lolz:

 

[Front242]

Such incredible energy he was quickly down 3-1. Sigh. Nadal fans :cover My bad, you said un incredible energy so you agree he didn't have incredible energy. You might think someone who was up until then leading the match by a country mile having won set 3 by 6-1 may be getting a bit p1$$ed off that he was now losing the match and therefore went all out to try and recapture the lead? No, that would never happen lol :nono

Lol, that's my point, he got the energy 8 minutes after to get the MTO:cover because his "groin injury massage" took 8 minutes to get the good results :lolz:

Your posts get sillier every day. He got a massage and then came back and went down 3-1. Seems it was very effective, don't you think. You're just making yourself look stupid now. For a change. :s He didn't get any extra energy ffs. He didn't want to lose the match so he tried his best. As a Nadal fan you should know this. "For sure, I gonna try my best. Iz the true, no?" That's what Roger did and he won.

 

[Carol]

Such incredible energy he was quickly down 3-1. Sigh. Nadal fans :cover My bad, you said un incredible energy so you agree he didn't have incredible energy. You might think someone who was up until then leading the match by a country mile having won set 3 by 6-1 may be getting a bit p1$$ed off that he was now losing the match and therefore went all out to try and recapture the lead? No, that would never happen lol :nono

Lol, that's my point, he got the energy 8 minutes after to get the MTO:cover because his "groin injury massage" took 8 minutes to get the good results :lolz:

Your posts get sillier every day. He got a massage and then came back and went down 3-1. Seems it was very effective, don't you think. You're just making yourself look stupid now. For a change. :s He didn't get any extra energy ffs. He didn't want to lose the match so he tried his best. As a Nadal fan you should know this. "For sure, I gonna try my best. Iz the true, no?" That's what Roger did and he won.

Yeah........:laydownlaughing

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Folks should remember how these boards looked like after 2014 AO. Almost all Nadalites jumped on the bandwagon that there is no way Nadal would have lost if not for the back issue (forgetting how well Stan was playing and forgetting he is the one who took out Novak). Now, at least there are just one or two Nadalites who are in denial.

 

[El Dude]

Yes, I remember that well, Game. I don't know why Nadal fans are particularly prone to this - the view that Nadal can only lose if he's hurt, exhausted, is manstruating, etc. As I said above, it is all part of the psychology of fan transference.

 

[Kieran]

Seriously lads, get yourself a new set of cliches. Especially bringing up the Stan match again. :cover

As if none of us watched it. As if Rafa had a close rivalry with him going into the match. As if players can't lose over five, having been up a set and a break. :cover

Tell that to Baghdatis.

As if Rafa could actually play after his back went. :cover

But really, pay attention, lads. This level of barrel scraping is weird...

 

[El Dude]

Kieran, it is simple. Aside from differing perspectives on the match, let's look at the underlying psychological context. Roger just had what was probably the greatest victory of his career. And yet still there are some Rafa fans who are finding ways to diminish it. Can you understand why those of us still celebrating would be annoyed?

 

[GameSetAndMath]

Seriously lads, get yourself a new set of cliches. Especially bringing up the Stan match again. :cover

As if none of us watched it. As if Rafa had a close rivalry with him going into the match. As if players can't lose over five, having been up a set and a break. :cover

Tell that to Baghdatis.

As if Rafa could actually play after his back went. :cover

But really, pay attention, lads. This level of barrel scraping is weird...

Just because H2H favors Rafa, we should just give the trophy to Rafa. That is why the matches are played right?