2014 Wimbledon Draw

Kieran

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ftan said:
I dont think Roger falls before quarters.. hell I even pick him up as an eventual winner ( a fan can dream)

For Rafa really on paper none of the names really seem to be capable of giving him a run for money .. but who know.. I don' think Rosol will happen again..

Grigor can make a good run deep this time.. but he has disappointed time and again in slams... we will see

Nole will make it to Finals.. he has it easy.. no one is really gonna trouble him..

I wish 2012 repeats .. Rafa goes out to Rosol..Federer even plays JB then.. ;)

Ah you Federer fans, you never want your goat to face Rafa! ;)
 

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ftan said:
I dont think Roger falls before quarters.. hell I even pick him up as an eventual winner ( a fan can dream)

For Rafa really on paper none of the names really seem to be capable of giving him a run for money .. but who know.. I don' think Rosol will happen again..

Grigor can make a good run deep this time.. but he has disappointed time and again in slams... we will see

Nole will make it to Finals.. he has it easy.. no one is really gonna trouble him..

I wish 2012 repeats .. Rafa goes out to Rosol..Federer even plays JB then.. ;)

If Nole plays Murray he is a goner for sure. Nole has a pretty tough draw and we know he is mentally dodgy in the majors. I think he might get upset early here and he won't be getting past Murray. If Roger makes the final I'd rather see Nole than Murray but I'd like his chances vs. either. It is time for Roger to step up and show he can still play well at a major and this is the place and draw to do it. And he can break the tie with Pete who has the tiebreaker as greatest on grass IMO (7-0 in finals vs. 7-1).
 

Front242

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He had a good draw at RG too though and kinda made a balls of it against Gulbis. I like Ernie anyway so was very happy to see him make a semi at a slam finally but Roger was a botched overhead away from 2 sets to zip and probably would've had a good chance of winning that match then. Hope his concentration is better this time round 'cos one break of serve is all it takes on grass per set. Obviously true on any surface but much harder to get breaks back on grass as we sadly know all too well from the loss to Tsonga at Wimbledon.
 

ftan

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Re: RE: 2014 Wimbledon Draw

Kieran said:
ftan said:
I dont think Roger falls before quarters.. hell I even pick him up as an eventual winner ( a fan can dream)

For Rafa really on paper none of the names really seem to be capable of giving him a run for money .. but who know.. I don' think Rosol will happen again..

Grigor can make a good run deep this time.. but he has disappointed time and again in slams... we will see

Nole will make it to Finals.. he has it easy.. no one is really gonna trouble him..

I wish 2012 repeats .. Rafa goes out to Rosol..Federer even plays JB then.. ;)

Ah you Federer fans, you never want your goat to face Rafa! ;)
well 5 years ago..I wouldn't hav mind that..bt yea not now..Fed is an aging warrior

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk
 

masterclass

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crystalfire said:
britbox said:
I'm of the thinking that Wimbledon 2014 and 2015 are Roger's last chances for another major.

yea same.

It's quite difficult for me to agree about "last chances". Now please forgive me if I go off topic a bit while I explain that. I've seen and studied the cycles of tennis for quite a while. A lot depends on the dominating players' rates of decline. Federer has had a very gradual decline in terms of his place in the top rankings. His prime years (not peak) have lasted quite long. He even got back to #1 for a few months less than 2 years ago. By the way, I define prime years for the very top players (multiple major winners) as approximately the time between their first and last majors, in Federer's case between 2003 and 2012, so far. I define peak years as when they dominated the rest, or even if not dominating, got their bulk of majors, in Federer's case 2004-2007.

Now that Federer's chief competitors are getting up there, past 27, marriages and kids here or there, more injuries, absences, etc., we will see what's going on, and how much they decline. There is a possibility that players like Nadal, Murray, and Djokovic will decline at a faster rate, either physically, mentally, or both, relative to Federer and give Federer another window of opportunity to win an additional few majors before young stars rise, similar to what happened in the early part of the Open Era with Rosewall, Laver, etc. before Connors and Borg began to dominate, and to what happened in the early 2000's after Sampras, Becker, Kuerten, Rafter declined, leaving Agassi to get a few more, before Federer and Nadal rose to dominate. We do not have a situation like in the 80's and early 90's where the next generation's depth following dominant players was quite strong. The current crop of youngsters is quite weak, relatively speaking.

I can see at least one player of the "big four" taking advantage. I'm not sure who it could be, but Federer seems to fit the profile of longevity. Loves the game, has been relatively injury free, game is not too taxing on the body, and has been a dominant player, and still competitive at an older age. 2013 was a sharp drop off for him, but seeing how he has recovered in 2014, we might put that down to his intermittent back problems. The challenge for him as he goes on will be to continue keeping those problems at bay and ability to recover from taxing matches and tournaments, with smart scheduling.

Of the others, I would give the nod to Djokovic to take advantage. He's had the fewest physical problems recently, bar the wrist, or arm, or whatever it may be. But even though he has reached finals in slams, he seems to be having trouble winning them lately. It's also possible some changes might happen after marriage and child, so who knows?

I would be quite surprised to see Rafa's prime last more than 1 or 2 more years more, unless he takes another extended absence and rejuvenates himself, but, I don't feel that will happen again. I could be wrong, but I think he would be more likely to hang it up, than do that again.

Andy Murray hasn't won a title or beaten a top 10 player since Djokovic last Wimbledon with his success there and subsequent back surgery and recovery process. We'll see what he can do this Wimbledon and beyond, but I have a feeling that he will not last that long at the top. He's accomplished his biggest dream of winning Wimbledon, and combined with physical problems, I think it may be enough for him. Of course, I could be wrong about that and the rest, but that's how I see it.

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

Front242

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^ Well a while back with all the talk of Nadal's supposed decline I thought Federer may well at least get a few more wins at the smaller best of 3 venues as himself and Nadal aged but so far bar Indian Wells 2012 he's failed to do that so wait and see I guess. Came close in Cincy 2013 but screwed up at 4-5 set 2. Good try though and the set point backhand in set 1 was awesome. I think he'll get a few more wins for sure against Djokovic and Murray though.
 

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masterclass said:
crystalfire said:
britbox said:
I'm of the thinking that Wimbledon 2014 and 2015 are Roger's last chances for another major.

yea same.

Andy Murray hasn't won a title or beaten a top 10 player since Djokovic last Wimbledon with his success there and subsequent back surgery and recovery process. We'll see what he can do this Wimbledon and beyond, but I have a feeling that he will not last that long at the top. He's accomplished his biggest dream of winning Wimbledon, and combined with physical problems, I think it may be enough for him. Of course, I could be wrong about that and the rest, but that's how I see it.

Respectfully,
masterclass

I have to say I don't recognise Andy in your post. It has no doubt taken him longer to recover than he probably thought but he's almost back. He's worked hard and he's determined to try and add to his slam count. I think he'll be top 5 for a few years yet.
 

El Dude

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Great post, masterclass. I generally agree with you and have thought about many of the same things. But I do have one point of divergence - I wouldn't be surprised to see Andy be the one to take advantage and win a few more. He's hungry to be spoken of in a similar breadth as the other greats and I don't think will be satisfied with 2 Slams. I could even see him having a great 2015, although it really depends if he can regain his pre-surgery form - we still haven't see that level from him and as it is now I think people are overrating him for Wimbledon and that he won't get past Novak in the their half.

But I agree that Roger should remain dangerous for another year or two and has a chance to sneak one more Slam in somewhere. He doesn't seem in a hurry to retire and also doesn't appear to be frustrated or impatient with his play. He could probably hang around in the top 10 for another four or five years if he really wanted to.

I think that Novak's long-term outlook of the four is probably best, although the big question for me is what happens when his unworldly court coverage becomes merely very good. At that point players like Raonic and Dimitrov will be able to beat him, and that could be just a year or two away given Novak's age of 27.

As for Rafa, it is hard to say. I wouldn't want to bet against the clay warrior. On the other hand, when it goes I think it will go fast. I think that he and Roger will retire within a year of each other, despite the almost five year age difference. Roger at the end of 2016 and Rafa sometime in 2017. That's my guess, at least. But as I said above, a more modest Roger might be OK hanging around for a couple years past that. Wouldn't it be beautiful to see them retire together?
 

Front242

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Murray will imo have zero problem with Novak at Wimbledon. Edited to EVER. Novak's just not as good on grass. Also, Murray's being seriously underrated this year imo as he just reached the semis of his worst slam. Not too shabby at all.
 

masterclass

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The flip side of the coin is if Federer actually does win a couple of more big ones, like this Wimbledon, and/or a US Open, smashing more records, and gets a Davis Cup. No matter how happy he says he is playing, about the adulation and admiration from the crowds, he might decide enough is enough, say he has a wife and 4 kids, some money in the bank, and has done everything he can do, and decides to call it quits and enjoy life outside of playing tennis. So who knows? Nothing would surprise me, really.

But for now he has to be focused on this Wimbledon.

Here is a short video of him at practice with another Slam winner, Lleyton Hewitt, and the great Stefan Edberg.
[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3ENUhqBkNg[/video]


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masterclass
 

masterclass

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Not sure why I'm repeating myself, but like I said, I could be wrong about my assessments. Some of these things I've said are feelings I have after seeing so many great players come and go through the years. One sort of sees patterns. Yet, these players are all individuals, so they might not fit always fit the pattern.

Andy Murray is tough for me, because I do like Andy, but I'm also a little hard on him I guess, because I think he had so much potential with his talent and physical ability, but has been limited by some of his own mannerisms, tendencies and certain areas where I've felt he could have improved more than he has. Lendl I believe did well to help him get him over the mental hurdle to win majors, and got him to play more aggressively than he had been. I'm not sure about Mauresmo's role. It seems to be one of confidant at the moment from what Murray has said.

But I've seen no improvement in Andy's second serve, even a decline since his back surgery, and it is simply killing his play against many players that he should beat. Almost every player is just waiting for their chance to belt Andy's second serve, and it is putting a lot of pressure on his first serve, and when his 1st serve goes off, he's in big trouble. His loss to Stepanek at Queen's Club was perfect evidence on how he could not count on his serve when it really mattered. No way he should have lost that first set with so many set points on his serve. Now, it could be that with his back problems he just cannot get pace and good spin at the same time without it affecting him, and the serve is what it is. If that's not it, then the primary goal has to be to improve that 2nd serve. He also seems to have not been as aggressive lately in his ground strokes unless his back is against the wall. Maybe he is protecting the back, I don't know.

Many people, not only fans, are lauding his semifinal result at Roland Garros. He also did fairly well in Rome and took a set from Nadal, but in my assessment, that was more because of Nadal's inconsistent clay play at the time, than Andy's good play. Yes, at Roland Garros, Murray did well to beat a solid Kohlschreiber in a very tough 5 sets over two days, after looking in trouble on the first day, and was a bit fortunate when Monfils totally imploded in the 5th set of their encounter, but still, we have to be honest with ourselves and ask, who did he beat to reach the semis? The ones in front of him, sure, but these are players ranked in the top 20-30 and they pushed him to the limit. The problem is that he has not been able to raise his play against the top echelon of players when they are playing somewhere near their best, and has lost to players he should normally beat, which I had put down to his recovery from back surgery. He played a much better Nadal than he played in Rome and was pretty much obliterated. But then clay has never been Andy's forte anyway.

We will see what happens at Wimbledon, and then later in the US open series on hard court, but at Wimbledon he unfortunately he got a draw that I almost consider too easy. I would rather see it a bit tougher so that he can gradually raise his play before meeting the top players.

Finally, I do wish Mr. Murray the best and do hope he proves me wrong about his future. :)

Respectfully,
masterclass
 

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Interesting discussion. I think there will come a time where Roger and Rafa will likely fall away and Novak and Andy will dominate an 18-24 month period. Or do I? I'm not sure, I like to think Dimitrov will be in and amongst it by then as he should be hitting his best years.

Also agree that when Rafa's decline does begin, it'll be a much bigger one than the one we've started seeing from Roger, who I think is capable of staying at least top ten even until his expected retirement date of 2016.

I can't really see Murray going away in the near future, I think his best tennis is pretty much there again now, he just needs to refocus the mental side of his game, hopefully Mauresmo will help him with that. Maybe he won't reach his pre-surgery form again (I personally think he will), but even if he does, the gulf in the slams between the big four and everyone else is so big that he'll remain one of the main contenders even in the kind of form he's showed this year. I mean, Andy's had his worst run of form in recent memory so far this year yet he still reached the semi finals of his worst slam a couple of weeks ago. He's gonna be around.
 

Iona16

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Front242 said:
Murray will imo have zero problem with Novak at Wimbledon. Edited to EVER. Novak's just not as good on grass. Also, Murray's being seriously underrated this year imo as he just reached the semis of his worst slam. Not too shabby at all.

I agree that Andy is being underrated this year. Do I think Murray wins if he and Djokovic meet in the semis? Yes. However, I don't think for a second that Andy would take a meeting with Novak lightly. Grass is obviously not his best surface but it's still Novak and he has won the title before.
 

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TennisFanatic7 said:
Interesting discussion. I think there will come a time where Roger and Rafa will likely fall away and Novak and Andy will dominate an 18-24 month period. Or do I? I'm not sure, I like to think Dimitrov will be in and amongst it by then as he should be hitting his best years.

I think we'll see an interesting phase where the Big Four start losing a half step at the same time as the younger guys, in particular Raonic and Dimitrov--maybe Nishikori--start peaking and stealing matches away.

Roger has been in his "post-peak plateau" phase for half a decade now and we are seeing hints of a more vulnerable Rafa, at least outside clay, and then you have Andy's injury and Novak's mental lapses. Now advance all of this by about a year and we might see some more upsets.

But it probably won't be until 2017-18 that we see a major shift at the top of the sport, and then we'll probably go through a couple years where there are no dominant players but a handful of semi-dominant ones (e.g. Dimitrov, Raonic, Thiem, Vesely, etc) before the arrival of the next truly great players, who I've surmised are currently teenagers and not yet on the ATP tour.
 

Front242

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Iona16 said:
Front242 said:
Murray will imo have zero problem with Novak at Wimbledon. Edited to EVER. Novak's just not as good on grass. Also, Murray's being seriously underrated this year imo as he just reached the semis of his worst slam. Not too shabby at all.

I agree that Andy is being underrated this year. Do I think Murray wins if he and Djokovic meet in the semis? Yes. However, I don't think for a second that Andy would take a meeting with Novak lightly. Grass is obviously not his best surface but it's still Novak and he has won the title before.

Definitely wouldn't take it lightly but of the two Novak is the one more prone to really poor and sometimes quite bizarre lapses in concentration out of nowhere. If I had a load of money to bet on that match I'd back Murray without hesitation.
 

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Nard Dog might end up facing Murray in R3. See ya, Andy.

tumblr_mitkvqeV9C1rwhzvzo2_250.gif
 

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DarthFed said:
ftan said:
I dont think Roger falls before quarters.. hell I even pick him up as an eventual winner ( a fan can dream)

For Rafa really on paper none of the names really seem to be capable of giving him a run for money .. but who know.. I don' think Rosol will happen again..

Grigor can make a good run deep this time.. but he has disappointed time and again in slams... we will see

Nole will make it to Finals.. he has it easy.. no one is really gonna trouble him..

I wish 2012 repeats .. Rafa goes out to Rosol..Federer even plays JB then.. ;)

If Nole plays Murray he is a goner for sure. Nole has a pretty tough draw and we know he is mentally dodgy in the majors. I think he might get upset early here and he won't be getting past Murray. If Roger makes the final I'd rather see Nole than Murray but I'd like his chances vs. either. It is time for Roger to step up and show he can still play well at a major and this is the place and draw to do it. And he can break the tie with Pete who has the tiebreaker as greatest on grass IMO (7-0 in finals vs. 7-1).
I do not understand why you say Pete has the tiebreaker when he played in fewer finals. So Roger becomes a lesser player on grass because he lost an extra final that he played?
 

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atttomole said:
DarthFed said:
ftan said:
I dont think Roger falls before quarters.. hell I even pick him up as an eventual winner ( a fan can dream)

For Rafa really on paper none of the names really seem to be capable of giving him a run for money .. but who know.. I don' think Rosol will happen again..

Grigor can make a good run deep this time.. but he has disappointed time and again in slams... we will see

Nole will make it to Finals.. he has it easy.. no one is really gonna trouble him..

I wish 2012 repeats .. Rafa goes out to Rosol..Federer even plays JB then.. ;)

If Nole plays Murray he is a goner for sure. Nole has a pretty tough draw and we know he is mentally dodgy in the majors. I think he might get upset early here and he won't be getting past Murray. If Roger makes the final I'd rather see Nole than Murray but I'd like his chances vs. either. It is time for Roger to step up and show he can still play well at a major and this is the place and draw to do it. And he can break the tie with Pete who has the tiebreaker as greatest on grass IMO (7-0 in finals vs. 7-1).
I do not understand why you say Pete has the tiebreaker when he played in fewer finals. So Roger becomes a lesser player on grass because he lost an extra final that he played?

I wouldn't say Roger's any less a player, but during his reign, he could have been more offensive out there and avoided some of those upsets; esp. when leading 2-0 or 2-1 in sets! Federer was fortunate Andy choked having him on the ropes in '09! So I give Sampras a little more credit for his 7 wins with the grass being more challenging to win on! It's a baseline haven now and not half as entertaining to watch! These long points with little net play is so boring! Borg and Connors were baseliners, but they knew they had to come into the net more than to shake hands and collect the check! :angel:
 

DarthFed

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atttomole said:
DarthFed said:
ftan said:
I dont think Roger falls before quarters.. hell I even pick him up as an eventual winner ( a fan can dream)

For Rafa really on paper none of the names really seem to be capable of giving him a run for money .. but who know.. I don' think Rosol will happen again..

Grigor can make a good run deep this time.. but he has disappointed time and again in slams... we will see

Nole will make it to Finals.. he has it easy.. no one is really gonna trouble him..

I wish 2012 repeats .. Rafa goes out to Rosol..Federer even plays JB then.. ;)

If Nole plays Murray he is a goner for sure. Nole has a pretty tough draw and we know he is mentally dodgy in the majors. I think he might get upset early here and he won't be getting past Murray. If Roger makes the final I'd rather see Nole than Murray but I'd like his chances vs. either. It is time for Roger to step up and show he can still play well at a major and this is the place and draw to do it. And he can break the tie with Pete who has the tiebreaker as greatest on grass IMO (7-0 in finals vs. 7-1).
I do not understand why you say Pete has the tiebreaker when he played in fewer finals. So Roger becomes a lesser player on grass because he lost an extra final that he played?

I think losing a final (ie the biggest stage in the sport) is a dent against a player's greatness. Obviously a player in the final has a chance to win the prize everyone wants most but you also risk more legacy wise. I think the hypothetical player who goes 8-0 in finals but loses the occasional QF, Semis, or earlier is greater than someone who is 8-8 in finals. JMO.

Maybe it is an American thing but one good example is the Buffalo Bills in the NFL. They lost 4 straight Super Bowls and are often the target of any jokes regarding futility on the big stage. If they'd have lost just 2 SB's and 2 AFC title games nobody would think twice about them. In that line of thinking, Pete stepped up and took care of business in every final whereas Roger didn't in 2008.
 

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Darth thinks that losers should be ostracised in shame and the next time they step on court in their fancy white sailor suit, they should ring a large cowbell, like a leper does...