Wimbledon Day 6: Saturday, June 28 - Order of Play

[brokenshoelace]

In a nutshell, you are saying no top player has ever tried so hard to hide their weak backhand?:snigger

I know you're kidding but, yes. Well, obviously, Nadal's backhand is far from weak. But no player in history has protected his weaker wing with the same effectiveness as Nadal. We think of him now as a player with few weaknesses. But when he first burst onto the scene, movement and forehand were virtually all he had (not quite, obviously, but you get the point). Think of how much he was able to achieve with those two elements before gradually rounding up his game.

 

[I.Haychew]

Camila Giorgi is also cute as hell

That Kirilenko chick is pretty pretty, too. But none of them have ANYthing on Schiavone and Suarez-Navarro. Those two dudes are phine!

 

[Front242]

Camila Giorgi is also cute as hell

That Kirilenko chick is pretty pretty, too. But none of them have ANYthing on Schiavone and Suarez-Navarro. Those two dudes are phine!

:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:laydownlaughing:lolz::lolz::clap You forgot Mauresmo! But yeah, Kirilenko's nice!

 

[Moxie]

^ Well, clearly we don't have enough to talk about on the middle Sunday. Nice to see some of the WTA players getting some "appropriate" and "deserved" attention over here. (NOT!) :nono Better be careful, or I'll revive the dreaded "shirtless man" thread. :laydownlaughing (Cosmo, where are you?)

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

In a nutshell, you are saying no top player has ever tried so hard to hide their weak backhand?:snigger

I know you're kidding but, yes. Well, obviously, Nadal's backhand is far from weak. But no player in history has protected his weaker wing with the same effectiveness as Nadal. We think of him now as a player with few weaknesses. But when he first burst onto the scene, movement and forehand were virtually all he had (not quite, obviously, but you get the point). Think of how much he was able to achieve with those two elements before gradually rounding up his game.

I WAS kidding, except there was some truth to it for sure. I do believe when you look at Rafa's backhand on its own, I would not put it in top 10 in men's tennis. But he hides it so well that it does not matter. He had , what, 2 winners from that wing in the last match? He uses it to keep the ball going . And when you were talking about the parts of Rafa's game that you think might have regressed, I feel his backhand should have been there. I watched some past videos and the backhand, at times , was clearly a weapon. He actually initiated things with it. I don't see that anymore. And his slice backhand use to have more bite. Now it sits up, waiting to be punished. I am talking in general, so I am sure there are examples of it being solid here and there, but overall, I think the backhand has regressed...just like anything really, when you avoid using something, it does not get any better. Pretty much how Roger's backhand kept improving through his peak years.

 

[Moxie]

^ I don't know if Rafa's backhand has actually regressed, though it sometimes takes him longer to find it, like now. You're implying that it's atrophying, and I don't think that's the case. I think it goes more in and out, like his serve, which can go on holiday and then come back. As he finds his confidence, though, I think he starts to place his serves better, and hit the BH, esp. cross-court, better again.

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

^ Maybe it is the extent that he goes to hide it is what is making me think it has regressed. The video a couple pages back? NOBODY would run around that backhand to hit a forehand...He was outside the doubles line once that shot was done. The WHOLE court was open for Kukushkin had Nadal not managed to hit a perfect shot. Had Nadal played a backhand in that rally, it was going to be an average shot, the rally was going to resume, etc...So he is basically willing to risk hitting a less than stellar forehand that can leave the whole court open for his opponent as opposed to hitting a backhand. That tells me something.

 

[Front242]

^ Good observation there alright. Hardly just going for Youtube clips when he hits those.

 

[Moxie]

^ Maybe it is the extent that he goes to hide it is what is making me think it has regressed. The video a couple pages back? NOBODY would run around that backhand to hit a forehand...He was outside the doubles line once that shot was done. The WHOLE court was open for Kukushkin had Nadal not managed to hit a perfect shot. Had Nadal played a backhand in that rally, it was going to be an average shot, the rally was going to resume, etc...So he is basically willing to risk hitting a less than stellar forehand that can leave the whole court open for his opponent as opposed to hitting a backhand. That tells me something.

But you say something interesting too: rather than hit a mediocre BH, Nadal went for a FH. He risked missing, but trusted that shot more. And when it did hit, it changed his fortunes. You're rather saying he should have hit the safer BH, even though it would likely not have gained him much. Nadal wins by trusting that FH. He went for it on that shot, and it paid off. The best players win because they bet on themselves, which Rafa did there. At his worst, Rafa plays cautiously, so bravado does work for him. Same as it does for Djokovic.

 

[huntingyou]

Rafa's backhand it's more versatile now since he can change directions more effective than in the past. The result of Novak/Murray assault on that wing in the last 4 years.

It's off and on though, moxie mentioned the parallel between his serve and backhand. I think it's a function of confidence. His ROS from the backhand side it's doing a lot of damage so far in Wimbledon.

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cdQLPbxcpk[/video]

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

^ Maybe it is the extent that he goes to hide it is what is making me think it has regressed. The video a couple pages back? NOBODY would run around that backhand to hit a forehand...He was outside the doubles line once that shot was done. The WHOLE court was open for Kukushkin had Nadal not managed to hit a perfect shot. Had Nadal played a backhand in that rally, it was going to be an average shot, the rally was going to resume, etc...So he is basically willing to risk hitting a less than stellar forehand that can leave the whole court open for his opponent as opposed to hitting a backhand. That tells me something.

But you say something interesting too: rather than hit a mediocre BH, Nadal went for a FH. He risked missing, but trusted that shot more. And when it did hit, it changed his fortunes. You're rather saying he should have hit the safer BH, even though it would likely not have gained him much. Nadal wins by trusting that FH. He went for it on that shot, and it paid off. The best players win because they bet on themselves, which Rafa did there. At his worst, Rafa plays cautiously, so bravado does work for him. Same as it does for Djokovic.

Nope, I am not saying he should have hit the mediocre backhand, I am saying he KNOWS it is a mediocre backhand. A guy like Nole for example would not hesitate to pull the trigger with a DTL backhand there. Or a cross court...Or Murray, Stan. Those guys trust their backhands as much as their forehands but Nadal does not, at least not like he used to.

Hunting, backhand is not a serve. You CAN hide a backhand, which Nadal does to perfection, but you HAVE to serve, there is no way around it. And I agree that he uses it competently to change directions here and there, but that is exactly what I am saying anyways. A competent rally shot. How often do you see him actually initiate something on that side, ask questions with it like Nole , Murray, Stan or even Roger does? He rarely does that and I think he used to more. And he does not need to because forehand is doing the job just fine.

That's why I am saying if I look at his backhand in a vacuum, I have at least 10 other guys ahead of him that I would pick.

 

[huntingyou]

name the 10 guys

 

[Murat Baslamisli]

name the 10 guys

Obviously they are my choices and there is no point you coming back and saying " How can you pick so and so over Nadal etc..." But I would have the following guy's backhands over Rafa's for various reasons. If you want an explanation for all of them, we nee another thread.
Nole, Murray, Stan, Gasquet, Almagro, Roger, Haas, Kohlschreiber, Tsonga, Berdych,Hewitt, Paire (this one you might not be too familiar with but if this guy had a forehand as good as his backhand, he would be top tenner), and as a recent retiree, Nalby.

These are a few that just pop up in my head and remember, we are looking at the shot in a vacuum. I am aware Almagro might be a headcase or that the backhand side is a vulnerability for Roger against Rafa. Just the shot.

 

[I.Haychew]

name the 10 guys

Easy...
Djokovic
Murray
Wawrinka
Gasquet
Almagro
Kohlschreiber
Haas
Youzhny
Phabio
Paire
Phat Dave
Dimitrov
You
Me
My brother (and I don't even have a brother)
And that's just (some of) the men!

 

[Billie]

Easy...
Djokovic
Murray
Wawrinka
Gasquet
Almagro
Kohlschreiber
Haas
Youzhny
Phabio
Paire
Phat Dave
Dimitrov
You
Me
My brother (and I don't even have a brother)

I missed your posts most

 

[britbox]

Hi Billie, Good to see you on the board.

 

[Billie]

Hi Billie, Good to see you on the board.

Hi BB, always a gentleman.:angel:

 

[I.Haychew]

Hi Billie, Good to see you on the board.

Seconded. Where've you been, Billie? We've, well I've, missed you!

 

[Moxie]

Hi Billie, Good to see you on the board.

Seconded. Where've you been, Billie? We've, well I've, missed you!

We all have. Good to see you around. I hope you won't be a stranger.

 

[Billie]

Hi Billie, Good to see you on the board.

Seconded. Where've you been, Billie? We've, well I've, missed you!

Thank you IH. I've been busy but I always think of you when KA47 or F3 plays. :hug