Where does Andy Murray go from here?

What will Andy Murray do in the rest of his career?


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DarthFed

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Kieran said:
28 isn't young? WTF is 34? :laydownlaughing

28 for someone who has been playing top level tennis for 7-8 years is pretty old. Murray has been going deep in most tournaments for a long time and there is more wear and tear on him than a 28 year old who is lucky to win a match or two every week.

34 in tennis is a geriatric we already know that :p
 

Kieran

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I don't see Murray getting to #1 either. He's further away now than he was three years ago...
 

El Dude

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There are a few different scenarios, and a few factors to consider. One, how long can Novak continue his peak level? And can he do it without slip-ups, injuries, or losing interest? He's Andy's age as well, and no longer a spring chicken. Another is Fed. Can he continue at this level for another year or two, and be a second player that is a notch above Andy? A third is Stan - he's pretty much coeval with Andy right now. And then there are the young guns. All of these guys have a limited clock of dominance, that balances their age against the next generation of stars. They're luck that the Nishikori-Dimitrov-Raonic generation is turning out to be a dud. But eventually some young guys are going to notch it up and start sneaking Slams away, and as they age even the "lost generation" will be harder to beat.

Andy's window of opportunity for more Slams and a #1 ranking is probably 2016-18. He turns 31 in 2018, while players like Nick Kyrgios turns 23, Borna Coric turns 22, and Alex Zverev turns 21 (among others). Who knows, maybe Dimitrov (who will be turning 27) will have figured it out by then and be having a late peak, and players like Dominic Thiem and Jiri Vesely (both turning 25) will be in their primes. In other words, 2018 is going to be a much harder environment for the current elite to maintain their reign.
 

mrzz

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You guys do realise that we are talking about the #3 in the world and #2 in the race, right?
 

nehmeth

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DarthFed said:
Kieran said:
28 isn't young? WTF is 34? :laydownlaughing

34 in tennis is a geriatric we already know that :p

:cover

Ken Rosewall was #2 in the world when he was 40

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/players/ken-rosewall/r075/rankings-history

At the age of 36, he won the Australian Open without dropping a set.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/players/ken-rosewall/r075/titles-and-finals
 

Kieran

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mrzz said:
You guys do realise that we are talking about the #3 in the world and #2 in the race, right?

We understand that, but in the issue of the choices in the poll, I think any prediction that Andy will be a future #1, with multiple slam wins, is possibly too optimistic at the moment...
 

Johnsteinbeck

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^ exactly. and we're talking about the #3/2 who has made 1 final out of the last 9 slams / 1 win out of the last 10, and who was supposed to be a member of the "BIG" (as in: dominant) Four. many would've hoped/expected him to do more. so it's legitimate to ask these questions.

nehmeth said:
DarthFed said:
Kieran said:
28 isn't young? WTF is 34? :laydownlaughing

34 in tennis is a geriatric we already know that :p

:cover

Ken Rosewall was #2 in the world when he was 40

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/players/ken-rosewall/r075/rankings-history

At the age of 36, he won the Australian Open without dropping a set.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/players/ken-rosewall/r075/titles-and-finals

come on, you saw the smiley. plus: those were different times; even more so regarding the AO. but yes - we're currently looking at a time where the 28-32ish range actually sees a lot of players excelling. 15 years ago, 34 would've seemed ancient for a top ranked pro.
 

britbox

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Murray won't be a future #1 but if he keeps putting himself in the business end of majors then he'll get opportunities to win another. It wouldn't surprise me if he did bag another but likewise, it wouldn't surprise me if he didn't. He's consistent but without being dominant and I feel his game has stagnated to a degree. Is there anything Andy does better now than he did a couple of years ago?
 

DarthFed

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nehmeth said:
DarthFed said:
Kieran said:
28 isn't young? WTF is 34? :laydownlaughing

34 in tennis is a geriatric we already know that :p

:cover

Ken Rosewall was #2 in the world when he was 40

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/players/ken-rosewall/r075/rankings-history

At the age of 36, he won the Australian Open without dropping a set.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/players/ken-rosewall/r075/titles-and-finals

Good, then maybe we can expect the same or more from Roger. We've had this discussion with the outraged Kieran on other threads, the truth is that Roger has aged normally. Tough to estimate a % but what would you say, Roger is 70-80% of what he was?

Guys like Ferrer are the true oddity. He plays a very physical style, has played a lot of matches and is probably better than he was at 25. Lopez, Karlovic and others are doing well at advanced ages but they are not and have never been top players so there is much less wear and tear. Moreover those guys improved on backhands that were barely at a high school level standard.
 

Kieran

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Compared to who has Roger aged normally? And be kinder to Daveed Ferrer: he's prolly played fewer matches than Federer has actually won, and without the year round strain of being a dominant player.
 

DarthFed

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Kieran said:
Compared to who has Roger aged normally? And be kinder to Daveed Ferrer: he's prolly played fewer matches than Federer has actually won, and without the year round strain of being a dominant player.

Compared to many who haven't had any major injuries throughout their career. I think part of your issue is you thought 2013 was part of his career arch and that he would just get worse from there. Even these top guys are allowed to have a really bad year here and there. We've seen the really bad years from Roger (rebounded from 2013), Andy (rebounded from 2014) and now Rafa (who I'm not counting out yet by any means). We will likely see it from Djokovic in a few years too.

Roger played at the highest level we've seen from ages 23-27, is it really that shocking that he has won 1 slam in his 30's and is still consistently top 3? I don't think it is.
 

mrzz

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johnsteinbeck said:
^ exactly. and we're talking about the #3/2 who has made 1 final out of the last 9 slams / 1 win out of the last 10, and who was supposed to be a member of the "BIG" (as in: dominant) Four. many would've hoped/expected him to do more. so it's legitimate to ask these questions.

I see. But I was replying more to the conversation than the questions themselves, which are fair.
 

britbox

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Seeing as he's won 2 majors in 6 years I'd say his trajectory has been pretty reasonable, especially considering he won 14 majors in the 6 years prior to that, and one more the year before.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out 14 down to 2 represents a significant decline, but it also put's into perspective how far he had to fall...

But yeah, a few 30+ fellas have shown what's achievable in recent memory - even journeymen like Lukas Rosol, Dustin Brown, Steve Darcis and Stan Wawrinka, either post or recently before the 30 mark.
 

Kieran

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mrzz said:
johnsteinbeck said:
^ exactly. and we're talking about the #3/2 who has made 1 final out of the last 9 slams / 1 win out of the last 10, and who was supposed to be a member of the "BIG" (as in: dominant) Four. many would've hoped/expected him to do more. so it's legitimate to ask these questions.

I see. But I was replying more to the conversation than the questions themselves, which are fair.

Andy has to look at his team. I'm sorry, I know Amelie was a movie of great cuteness but he needs better calibre people in his box. Get rid of Bjorkman too. I'm sure he's a great bloke, but the way Andy responded to Lendl was special, from the shared dark sense of humour, to the discipline. I think he's got to go the bootcamp route, and pretty soon, too...
 

isabelle

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Unexpected loss from Andy, very disappointing. he could have beaten Anderson, don"t know what happened but it's really strange
 

nehmeth

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johnsteinbeck said:
^ exactly. and we're talking about the #3/2 who has made 1 final out of the last 9 slams / 1 win out of the last 10, and who was supposed to be a member of the "BIG" (as in: dominant) Four. many would've hoped/expected him to do more. so it's legitimate to ask these questions.

nehmeth said:
DarthFed said:
34 in tennis is a geriatric we already know that :p

:cover

Ken Rosewall was #2 in the world when he was 40

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/players/ken-rosewall/r075/rankings-history

At the age of 36, he won the Australian Open without dropping a set.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/en/players/ken-rosewall/r075/titles-and-finals

come on, you saw the smiley. plus: those were different times; even more so regarding the AO. but yes - we're currently looking at a time where the 28-32ish range actually sees a lot of players excelling. 15 years ago, 34 would've seemed ancient for a top ranked pro.

You've been away for a while John. Yes, I know Darth was tongue in cheek, but for many months our Kieran has been opining on how someone as ancient as Fed could still be playing top level tennis. Kenny came to mind and I did a little looking around.

It was also somewhat after Kenny's day (with all his other Aussies bros), that players began skipping the down under slam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Australian_Open_men%27s_singles_champions
 

herios

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isabelle said:
Unexpected loss from Andy, very disappointing. he could have beaten Anderson, don"t know what happened but it's really strange

Not strange at all. Kevin Anderson played better than ever and Andy was not at his best, which can happen. I am really appreciating the work KA put in to develop and become a better player.
I was wondering just this summer if KA has maxed out his potential and if he can make more of an impact than a top 15 player? Now I am convinced that he will be able to sniff in into the top 10 at the lower end of it, like Isner did a few times.
 

El Dude

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I think the only people disappointed with Andy are his most ardent fans and Andy himself. Everyone else realizes that he is what he's always been: a great player, but not as great as the truly dominant players of the era - Federer, Nadal, and Djokovic. Andy is to those guys what Guillermo Vilas was to Connors and Borg, or Courier to Agassi and Sampras (although unlike Courier, Andy never had his time at the very top). No shame in that. There's nothing wrong with Andy and his fans thinking that in 2012-13 he was stepping up to finally be an equal to the others, just as Novak stepped up in 2011. But it just didn't happen.

All that said, Andy remains the second best candidate for Slam wins and dominance over the next two or three years. I mean, other than Novak who is more likely to win a Slam and/or be #1 in 2016-17? I can't think of anyone.

p.s. My option would be "Probably 1-2 more Slams and maybe a brief stay at #1, if everything aligns for him."
 

El Dude

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As an aside...One thing we should look for is that while it seems tier 2 and 3 players like Ferrer and Anderson, respectively, seem to be peaking later, more in their late 20s to early 30s, we don't know if the same is true of the tier 1 players - meaning, the Big Four. Stan is an interesting exception in that he was a tier 3 player (top 20ish) who became a tier 1 player, almost over night (Well, not exactly - he was looking like a tier 2 player in late 2013 before winning the AO in early 2014). The first Slam title seemed like a fluke, that he was more of a late-blooming Berdych or Tsonga (tier 2) who got lucky, but the second Slam cemented that he's a step above these guys and closer to Andy.

Stan has played his best tennis at age 28-30, with no sign of declining. Ferrer, Lopez, Anderson, and others are playing their best tennis, even a bit older (although I think Ferrer is slightly reduced in 2014-15 than he was in 2012-13). Roger, despite still being great, showed a more standard career pattern: peaking at 22-27, declining to a lower plateau from 28-31, then after recovering from his disastrous 2013, another slightly lower plateau at age 32-34. As remarkable as he is, it is still a relatively normal pattern - it is just that, as someone said, he came from so high so that a "plate career plateau" is still Himalayan. Couple that with his extraordinary work ethic and health and you have a 34-year old who is #2 in the world and looks like he could remain a top 5 player for a year or two yet.

But what we don't know is how Djokovic, Nadal, and Murray will look in a couple years. Rafa is clearly in decline; best-case scenario and he comes back with a slightly lower late career plateau, like Federer over the last six years. But we don't know yet if Novak and Andy will decline at that time as well, or if they will be able to do what other, lesser players have done - have an equal or higher plateau at age 28-32 as the traditional peak years of 22-27. Who knows, maybe we'll look back at this US Open as the first sign that Andy was dropping a half-step, like Roger's 2010 Roland Garros when he went out in the QF of a Slam for the first time in six years.

So to summarize, what I'm trying to get at is that for whatever reason, it seems that tier 2 and 3 players are more prone to late careers peaks than tier 1 elites are. I don't know exactly why this is. Maybe it is because they aren't elites, that they are more inspired to do what it takes to take their game up a notch - like Agassi being a better player in his late 20s and early 30s because he partially wasted his peak years to partying and such. Certainly Stan Wawrinka is setting a new standard, and is a hope and inspiration for every player in their peak years who hasn't won a Slam. But we can look at a Dimitrov or Nishikori or Raonic, or even a Gulbis, and not be able to assume that they will take the normal age 28ish decline. Maybe it all clicks for Grigor when he's 27 or 28 and he has a Stan-like or better late career peak.