What on Earth is going on in the world today? It's gone mad

mrzz

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Lennon's vision of peace and harmony might be slightly more credible if he hadn't slapped his first wife around and basically ignored his son for the majority of his life.

The view that people with a higher level of education are atheists is easy to believe. I agree most tenured professors and academics are undoubtedly likely to be atheists. They have higher levels of education because they have spent the most time in education, some have barely spent any time outside of academia. Level of education doesn't necessarily reflect "intelligence" though - the people with the highest recorded IQs in history are largely theocrats.

The majority of academics are left of centre and have a fairly rigid doctrine of what is acceptable and unacceptable. Most life-long teachers I know are all Identikit clones when it comes to political and religious views. People thinking outside of those boundaries don't usually last very long in academia.

When a rogue shooter goes on a killing spree, it's still my view that it's very much about the individual. I think we kind of agree on that.

In a nutshell you are saying that academics in general (note: I hate those generalizations) merely substituted one deity by another, either disguised or "more sophisticated". Makes sense.

Your vision of the academia is extremely accurate for specific niches of it, but it is not that general. Of course, those niches are extremely vocal. But it has become some sort of a clichè that all universities are simply echo-chambers of a given set of values. It is not that simple. And, remember, universities are exactly the place where self-critique can be functional (note that I wrote can).

But I understand your point, really (I have my personal reasons). My concern is that a lot of people are joining this anti-academia climate around, and most don't have anything constructive to say -- are actually pushing for very shady agendas. To give an extreme example, all flat-earthers are anti-academic.
 

britbox

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In a nutshell you are saying that academics in general (note: I hate those generalizations) merely substituted one deity by another, either disguised or "more sophisticated". Makes sense.

Your vision of the academia is extremely accurate for specific niches of it, but it is not that general. Of course, those niches are extremely vocal. But it has become some sort of a clichè that all universities are simply echo-chambers of a given set of values. It is not that simple. And, remember, universities are exactly the place where self-critique can be functional (note that I wrote can).

But I understand your point, really (I have my personal reasons). My concern is that a lot of people are joining this anti-academia climate around, and most don't have anything constructive to say -- are actually pushing for very shady agendas. To give an extreme example, all flat-earthers are anti-academic.

I'm not anti-academic mate and don't like generalisations either... but if everyone else is generalising then... why not.

However, from experience, I have found that teachers, tutors, professors and others who have spent their whole career in academia, to be almost exclusively left of centre on the political spectrum. There have been some exceptions of course. Also, I worked for a time at one college once where the tutors were all recruited from outside academia, they'd been recruited from industry and the reverse was probably true.
 

mrzz

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I'm not anti-academic mate and don't like generalisations either... but if everyone else is generalising then... why not.

However, from experience, I have found that teachers, tutors, professors and others who have spent their whole career in academia, to be almost exclusively left of centre on the political spectrum. There have been some exceptions of course. Also, I worked for a time at one college once where the tutors were all recruited from outside academia, they'd been recruited from industry and the reverse was probably true.

I know that you are not, I am just pointing out that there are unscrupulous people taking a ride in this conversation. It is an explosive subject, handle it with care.

There is no problem in being left, center, or right. The problem is to assume a sectarian left, center or right position (which, I know, is common).
 
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Chris Koziarz

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The majority of academics are left of centre and have a fairly rigid doctrine of what is acceptable and unacceptable. Most life-long teachers I know are all Identikit clones when it comes to political and religious views. People thinking outside of those boundaries don't usually last very long in academia.
Have you thought the reason for academics "leaning left" can be that such position is closer to the objective facts about our world? Academics are trained to rigorously examine all facts coming from their experiments and draw objective conclusions. If they don't then they are rebuked by the peers. I think self-correcting mechanisms of peer reviews make academics the least biased group. So I would make the average opinions in academia to be the benchmark for objectivity, and not the opinions by politicians whose views are influenced by money they receive from wealthy industry and not by whether their claims withstand scrutiny. So, the political "centre" is not necessarily an opinion reflectimg the objective reality, but rather the amount of money given industry gives them. Examples of politicians suddenly changing their view after they are ousted from the party due to irrelevant affairs (e.g. sexual) and heavily criticising their former colleagues. That's because these outcasts are not encumbered anymore by donor's money and are free to express the opinions they feel like.

[/QUOTE]When a rogue shooter goes on a killing spree, it's still my view that it's very much about the individual. I think we kind of agree on that.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I agree.
 

britbox

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Have you thought the reason for academics "leaning left" can be that such position is closer to the objective facts about our world?
Academics are trained to rigorously examine all facts coming from their experiments and draw objective conclusions. If they don't then they are rebuked by the peers. I think self-correcting mechanisms of peer reviews make academics the least biased group.

So I would make the average opinions in academia to be the benchmark for objectivity

First, it depends on what you mean by "facts" - and "facts" about this world.

Accurate Raw data is factual.

Information is a presentation of that data

Opinions are formed largely based on the information presented and how it is presented.

So you seem to be suggesting that "left-leaning" academics are interpreting data and are coming to a conclusion that a socialist model works best for society? and that they know best and we should bow down to their superior wisdom?

You need to explain this as I'm not really understanding what angle you are approaching this from.

Many life long academics have not ventured out of the academic bubble long into the real world to hold superior answers in this context or even offer a balanced opinion. Entrepreneurship, for example, is a virtually non-existent element within academic circles. Entrepreneurship and innovation drive the private sector that in turn pays for the public sector and academia.

If you look at many of the great drivers of the digital era - guys like Gates (Microsoft), Jobs (Apple), Zuckerberg (Facebook), Dell, Williams (Twitter)... they all share something in common - they dropped out of Uni and changed the world.

On Peer Reviews - yes, of course, they are useful and critical in some disciplines, but the university model can also stifle innovation. Peer Reviews happen outside academia also by the way - usually far more quickly and efficiently.


, and not the opinions by politicians whose views are influenced by money they receive from wealthy industry and not by whether their claims withstand scrutiny. So, the political "centre" is not necessarily an opinion reflectimg the objective reality, but rather the amount of money given industry gives them. Examples of politicians suddenly changing their view after they are ousted from the party due to irrelevant affairs (e.g. sexual) and heavily criticising their former colleagues. That's because these outcasts are not encumbered anymore by donor's money and are free to express the opinions they feel like.

You don't have to convince me that politicians don't have all the answers. I certainly don't put them on a pedestal.
 

Federberg

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very interesting discussion. There are intellectuals who have a more right-ward lean like Jordan Peterson. But to me, at least, there's an obvious reason for the leftward lean of intellectuals. Intellectuals observe the human condition and see that the vast majority of humanity exist under conditions that are far from ideal. They experience poverty and a lack of opportunity which cannot be wholly explained by a failure of the majority of humanity to fully exploit the chances they have in life. It is timely that the university scandal in the United States has illustrated how the wealthy rig the system in their favour. When you consider that intellectuals have a guiding principle which focusses on how to make the lot of the masses better it is inevitable that they would have a bias that argues against the status quo. How could they not? And that bias, at least at the moment, has to be leftward.

The difficulty is where the rubber meets the road. How can we create economic systems that are fairer, more meritocratic, that enable the best most capable people to achieve? This is the challenge that intellectuals generally try to resolve. The forces on the other side, those that argue in support of the status quo, do so on the basis of self interest and realism. I have a lot of sympathy for realists. We have seen the practical application of communistic systems that have attempted to make the step towards greater social justice an instantaneous leap. But this has been shown to have failed numerous times over the last century. That doesn't mean that the attempt should be abandoned. The data from failed attempts should feedback into the intellectual discussion so that the next efforts at social justice might achieve more success. It's important to remember that we are currently living in an age where we see more people than ever before moving out of poverty. More people than ever before being educated. There are real successes even as we see crushing inequities.

I have a generally centre right bias, and in an ideal system I would advocate limited government and the promotion of greater human freedoms. I would be lying though if I didn't acknowledge the current inequities in the system. This is one of the reasons I find someone like AOC fascinating at the moment. Both she and Elizabeth Warren have advocated higher taxation for the wealthy and there has been a predictable reaction on the right labelling that socialism and being intellectually dishonest about what it all means. The fact that these women are advocating higher taxes is not of itself socialism. If you look at the period of highest economic growth in the 20th century 50s - 60s the highest marginal rates of tax were by todays measures extreme. But income inequality was lower with higher growth than the era we live in now. Why is that? Well for one thing there was, if not a recognition, at least a reality that the focus of economic development was for society as a whole. That is not the case now. I can identify when this all changed. It was the early 70s, the collapse of the Bretton Woods system, a time when there was crippling inflation, the costs of production had gotten out of control. The remediation was correct at the time... the returns to capital had been allowed to deteriorate in comparison to the costs to labour and something needed to be done to correct that. Enter Margaret Thatcher. We are now in an era where the reverse has happened. The returns to labour have been allowed to deteriorate in comparison to the returns to capital. I fear that something dramatic has to happen to right the balance. I don't know how that happens, but I'm fairly sure that there will be a rebalancing. Any time these rebalancings happen there is a necessary political shock. It's going to happen, it will likely be ugly, all we can do is watch. Perhaps AOC is the Margaret Thatcher of this current era
 

Horsa

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I agree that this is a fascinating conversation.

I realise that money & monetary systems are extremely important in society today as they have been for a long time although money is just a means of exchange which was originally invented by the Romans to replace bartering as they thought that it was a fairer system (which it was). I think that money wouldn't be necessary if people could work together & share everything equally although I know this is a utopian view & it just wouldn't happen. It would be nice if we lived in a fairer society which was meritocratic but sometimes we've got to say or just think "That's life!" or "C'est la vie" if you'd prefer. I disagree that we're living in an age where more people than before are moving out of poverty because where I'm living I'm seeing more people living on the streets than ever before & for the last few years we've seen foodbanks in the U.K. than ever before. I think that it's good that more people than ever before are being educated but wonder how that can be quantified exactly. Isn't it possible that some people are highly self-educated? A lot of people who've picked up the basics can very easily educate themselves with access to good books or tomes like me. (I'm not going to be self-pitying here as I've got food on the table, a roof over my head, natural abilities & access to books so realise that although I'm under-privileged compared to some I'm not really under-privileged.) Just because they haven't got a piece of paper to say they've passed this or that doesn't mean that they don't know this or that & I know quite a lot of self-educated people where I live who can show some people who've been through higher education where I live what's what. I also think that the assumption that have been made recently stating that all who've been through higher education have different religious or political views is wrong as is the assumption that they all test everything before believing things (which is mostly true but some people who haven't had higher education also do this). What about those who studied things like languages (which is what I'd have done)? They specialise in translating things. I have the utmost respect for self-educated people though I'm not against anyone who had the opportunity to go into formal education & took it & I respect them too. Jane Austen herself was mainly self-educated. After that diversification & bit of a rant, I'll go back to saying that I agree with everything else Federberg said though.

I think about everything that's said & weigh things up & consider them constantly which means I swap & change things constantly.
 
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Federberg

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quoted a source close to Meghan as saying that the couple "have already planned a gender-neutral nursery... and this seems to be in line with Meghan's ideas about how to raise children".
A spokesman for Kensington Palace, the couple's London residence, called the story "totally false".
Ever since the pregnancy was announced, the couple have been preparing their future home at Frogmore Cottage on Queen Elizabeth II's estate in Windsor with a £3 million (3.5 million euros, $4.0 million) renovation.
The Duchess of Sussex wants to use vegan paint infused with eucalyptus oil to decorate the nursery for the new arrival, according to the Daily Mail newspaper.


Lord help us! All I can say is that it's stuff like this that makes me sympathise with some flyover state gripes against Democrats. Vegan paint? FFS...:facepalm:
 

Horsa

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quoted a source close to Meghan as saying that the couple "have already planned a gender-neutral nursery... and this seems to be in line with Meghan's ideas about how to raise children".
A spokesman for Kensington Palace, the couple's London residence, called the story "totally false".
Ever since the pregnancy was announced, the couple have been preparing their future home at Frogmore Cottage on Queen Elizabeth II's estate in Windsor with a £3 million (3.5 million euros, $4.0 million) renovation.
The Duchess of Sussex wants to use vegan paint infused with eucalyptus oil to decorate the nursery for the new arrival, according to the Daily Mail newspaper.


Lord help us! All I can say is that it's stuff like this that makes me sympathise with some flyover state gripes against Democrats. Vegan paint? FFS...:facepalm:
Thank you very much for the news. I needed a good laugh. R.O.F.L. It's the 1st time I've heard of vegan paint. I'd heard of vegan candles before though. Things are getting ridiculous.
 

Chris Koziarz

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quoted a source close to Meghan as saying that the couple "have already planned a gender-neutral nursery... and this seems to be in line with Meghan's ideas about how to raise children".
A spokesman for Kensington Palace, the couple's London residence, called the story "totally false".
Ever since the pregnancy was announced, the couple have been preparing their future home at Frogmore Cottage on Queen Elizabeth II's estate in Windsor with a £3 million (3.5 million euros, $4.0 million) renovation.
The Duchess of Sussex wants to use vegan paint infused with eucalyptus oil to decorate the nursery for the new arrival, according to the Daily Mail newspaper.


Lord help us! All I can say is that it's stuff like this that makes me sympathise with some flyover state gripes against Democrats. Vegan paint? FFS...:facepalm:
It's worth remembering that Meghan Markle is a retired American actress from CA. She unsurprisingly retired at a very young age of 38, after having married Harry and became Duchess of Sussex. Rich and/or spoiled American people, especially actors, are known for their sometimes peculiar idiosyncrasies. It's a normal psychological mechanism, that due to their financial and social status, certain people from such "elite" become detached from reality and develop unusual features (behavioural character, form of speech, believes, etc) that do not make sense in the context of average culture surrounding them. The case of Meghan is a classic one: a spoiled Californian actress, who became exponentially more spoiled when she joined the ranks of royal family: so not acting but smiling back at the paparazzi cohorts takes her full time now.
How are brits supposed to react to such idiosyncratic speech when royal family is supposed to be their cultural representation & a role model? You are not supposed to "teach" your role model but rather follow it. I have the luxury of LOL without embarrassment and my response is disdainful ignorance. Perhaps if brit paparazzi act with the same attitude and replace the flicking of their cameras with "you're a nutter" meme, she may learn the nonsense of her figure of speech. But of course tabloids like Daily Mail do not understand that. Perhaps those bits who read & live with Daily Mail deserve such role model and even will start following it...
 

Horsa

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Oh my goodness! Has anyone heard what's happening in Sri Lanka? They're not having a "Happy Easter!". That's for sure. Some idiotic suicide bombers have been bombing churches & hotels. At least 200 are dead & many more are injured. It's absolutely disgusting.

Will there ever be world peace?
 

britbox

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Oh my goodness! Has anyone heard what's happening in Sri Lanka? They're not having a "Happy Easter!". That's for sure. Some idiotic suicide bombers have been bombing churches & hotels. At least 200 are dead & many more are injured. It's absolutely disgusting.

Will there ever be world peace?

Horrific events. No, there will never be world peace. Never has been, never will.
 
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Chris Koziarz

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Oh my goodness! Has anyone heard what's happening in Sri Lanka? They're not having a "Happy Easter!". That's for sure. Some idiotic suicide bombers have been bombing churches & hotels. At least 200 are dead & many more are injured. It's absolutely disgusting.

Will there ever be world peace?
The toll rose to over 300 by now. There appears to be no ISIS connections but an unknown to me terrorist org called "National Thowheeth Jama’ath" with some history of intolerance towards Buddhists, is suspected. But they have never targeted minority Catholic Christians before.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/22/world/asia/sri-lanka-bombing-explosion.html
The most disturbing is the assessment my an expert tactical analysis from Texas:
But in the Sri Lanka attack, it appears that all seven suicide vests detonated and did heavy damage, [...] indicating skill at making bombs and manually activated detonators, and suggesting access to a large supply of military-grade high explosives.
So we are dealing with new ISIS-like phenomenon here.
 

Horsa

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The toll rose to over 300 by now. There appears to be no ISIS connections but an unknown to me terrorist org called "National Thowheeth Jama’ath" with some history of intolerance towards Buddhists, is suspected. But they have never targeted minority Catholic Christians before.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/22/world/asia/sri-lanka-bombing-explosion.html
The most disturbing is the assessment my an expert tactical analysis from Texas:
But in the Sri Lanka attack, it appears that all seven suicide vests detonated and did heavy damage, [...] indicating skill at making bombs and manually activated detonators, and suggesting access to a large supply of military-grade high explosives.
So we are dealing with new ISIS-like phenomenon here.
That's dreadful.
 

Horsa

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Horrific events. No, there will never be world peace. Never has been, never will.
They are horrific events indeed. It's a shame. World peace would be very nice. I know it's a utopian dream. I ask questions about World peace when I'm in my dreamy, imaginative mode. When bad things happen, I try to soften the blows by writing poems about these bad things or go into my dreamy & imaginative mode. This stops me from getting too upset. I understand reality but depression isn't nice so being dreamy & imaginative or making poems to soften the blows is a good thing for me. I tried to avoid the news for years for this reason. Sometimes the news is so bad I wish I didn't have to understand what was going on in the world.
 
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mrzz

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Sometimes the news is so bad I wish I didn't have to understand what was going on in the world.

But isn't it even worst like that? If you wouldn't understand anything, and simply accept that terrible things keep happening? One thing is to luckily ignore what goes on, but I actually think that (trying to) understand things make them easier to digest. Of course, in this process (of understanding) you might find out more unpleasant things...

It seems that you are starting to go on the same path Voltaire went in his brilliant "The ignorant philosopher" (hope I am back-translating it correctly).
 

Horsa

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But isn't it even worst like that? If you wouldn't understand anything, and simply accept that terrible things keep happening? One thing is to luckily ignore what goes on, but I actually think that (trying to) understand things make them easier to digest. Of course, in this process (of understanding) you might find out more unpleasant things...

It seems that you are starting to go on the same path Voltaire went in his brilliant "The ignorant philosopher" (hope I am back-translating it correctly).
In a way, yes, because if I didn't understand anything at all I wouldn't be able to understand the good & beautiful things in life either. It may sometimes seem that total ignorance is total bliss but if we look at the whole picture that's not true at all so maybe rationing time to think about bad things that are happening so that I see things realistically instead of ignoring the bad things while still doing good things is the way forward. Things are the way they are. I am the way I am. I can understand what's going on whether I like it or not therefore I should accept this fact & accept that the news is the news & bad things happen.

I'm very sorry. I made it look like I didn't care about anyone or anything but I do, very much so.

I don't know. I've never read that book. Didn't Socrates say something along the lines of "The wise man realises that he knows nothing." though?
 
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Horsa

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Update on Sri Lanka 359 people died & 500 were injured. 8/9 of the terrorists involved have been caught.
 

britbox

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But isn't it even worst like that? If you wouldn't understand anything, and simply accept that terrible things keep happening? One thing is to luckily ignore what goes on, but I actually think that (trying to) understand things make them easier to digest. Of course, in this process (of understanding) you might find out more unpleasant things...

It seems that you are starting to go on the same path Voltaire went in his brilliant "The ignorant philosopher" (hope I am back-translating it correctly).

It depends on how you want to process events that you have no control over. Look hard enough and you'll find atrocities happening around the globe every single day. Some of these events might resonate with you more than others depending on your locality, your cultural and political persuasions... but if you wanted, you could easily find a way to be outraged every single day. Is that really a good place to be in?