What on Earth is going on in the world today? It's gone mad

JesuslookslikeBorg

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about 150 of the fatalities were from Holland..just over a week ago some of those people would have been hoping and cheering for Holland to reach the world cup final..

..but now they are dead.
 

britbox

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Tragedy for the victims. Lots of questions to be answered...

The first one will be what the hell were Malaysian Airlines doing flying that route? Most other airlines had revised their routes. Emirates for instance, were giving the area a 400 km wide berth. It's a warzone with planes being shot down every week. The Ukranian government had previously given a ban on planes flying 32,000 ft or under... The Malaysian aircraft was flying the area at 33,000 ft... Utter stupidity.

Put it this way, I can't see many people hopping aboard their flights in the near future. I told my wife the other day, after the plane went missing they would probably be the safest airline to fly with. Obviously not.
 

Murat Baslamisli

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This is such a sad world...plus internet is a really scary place. I was looking for info about the plane crash and next thing you know, I am looking at pictures of bodies from the plane crash. And you cannot just unsee what you have just seen...Man...Same with the four kids bombed playing soccer on the beach in Gazza...

World is a scary place and nothing makes sense...even when you know perfectly well why things are happening, on a fundamental level, it is all senseless.
 

Kieran

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You know, we're days off the 100th anniversary of the start of WWI, and we can safely say that humans haven't evolved a single inch in that time... :nono
 

Kieran

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1972Murat said:
Does the lightning strike the same place twice? Looks like it does...

http://news.ca.msn.com/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-woman-loses-family-on-both-malaysian-flights

Yeah, that's particularly horrifying...
 

Kieran

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It's becoming macabre and garish in Ukraine: Putin's thugs have taken the bodies of the deceased away in refrigerated trains. I wonder if this strange and terrible episode will contain more backlash and consequence for the Russian tyrant than his invasion of Ukraine. If so, it shows how oddly things move in the world...
 

britbox

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Kieran said:
It's becoming macabre and garish in Ukraine: Putin's thugs have taken the bodies of the deceased away in refrigerated trains. I wonder if this strange and terrible episode will contain more backlash and consequence for the Russian tyrant than his invasion of Ukraine. If so, it shows how oddly things move in the world...

Mate, let's not let the media distort those facts either.

The dead bodies were put into refigerated trains to preserve the corpses. The trains haven't gone anywhere.
 

Kieran

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britbox said:
Kieran said:
It's becoming macabre and garish in Ukraine: Putin's thugs have taken the bodies of the deceased away in refrigerated trains. I wonder if this strange and terrible episode will contain more backlash and consequence for the Russian tyrant than his invasion of Ukraine. If so, it shows how oddly things move in the world...

Mate, let's not let the media distort those facts either.

The dead bodies were put into refigerated trains to preserve the corpses. The trains haven't gone anywhere.

:Lolz:

I woulda bet a tenner you'd be on to defend Putin's boys.

There's a guilty party in this and they're not acting with humanitarian kindness. This tale is dark enough as it is, with the presence of balaclava'd terrorists holding the dead, for whatever strange purpose they have in mind. It's not the media who put those blokes there... :nono
 

britbox

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^ They didn't move themselves obviously... but Ukrainian Deputy Prime Minister Volodymyr Groysman stated that it was the Ukrainian emergency services who loaded them onto to the train prior to them being sent home for burial. The Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) are also at the station monitoring.
 

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I think things are loosening up now, after pressure was put on Putin, but obviously, given the people in charge there, it's not a situation the relatives of victims can have much confidence in. According to the BBC, "Tense negotiations are continuing between the authorities in Kiev and the rebels for the trains to be allowed to leave for government-held territory for identification and analysis."

The Dutch are now trying to gain access to the crash site, while the rebels are holding, and presumably ransacking, covering their tracks.

On a related thing, I was asked the other day if I would fly with Malaysian Airlines. I thought about it for a second and said I would. This is a terrible coincidence that it's them again in the news, but in this matter, they weren't at fault. They flew in airspace deemed safe by international airline authorities and were one among many airlines, including British Airways, Lufthansa, and Air France, to use that air corridor around this time. It was random fluke that they were chosen for death.

We might look at it in hindsight and wonder why anybody would have been using that route, but it was deemed safe and used for passage by others - until now it isn't.

So Malaysian Airlines is in the news again, and this time it might be fatal to their own survival. Already, they were struggling financially in the wake of the first mysterious disappearance, and this article here weighs up their chances. Being a national airline, they might be kept airborne long after they can pay their way.

The person who asked me if I'd fly with them was working in a cafe and was asking the regulars would they fly with Malaysian Airlines. I was the first one to say I would, and while I sat by the window watching the girls go by, I heard another bloke say the same thing: unhappy coincidence, but he'd fly with them. In fact, an argument could be made for them to be safer than other airlines, if they up their game in safety matters...
 

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^It wasn't deemed safe by the majority of major airlines - most were flying around it. Sure, some were still flying the route - to save fuel costs.
 

Kieran

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It was really only when Putin sent the type of weapon that could reach so far that it became truly dangerous. 30+ thousand feet was out of range until he sent these weapons, but yeah, there were fuel cost issues too, but although some major airlines avoided it, some didn't, and it seems common enough to fly at that height over war zones...
 

britbox

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Kieran said:
It was really only when Putin sent the type of weapon that could reach so far that it became truly dangerous. 30+ thousand feet was out of range until he sent these weapons, but yeah, there were fuel cost issues too, but although some major airlines avoided it, some didn't, and it seems common enough to fly at that height over war zones...

The rebels had already shot down some aircraft in the area the week before. It seems likely they shot this one down - presumably by mistake. I still think it was also a lack of judgement by the airline to be flying around a conflict zone. Most, not some airlines were already exercising caution and avoiding the area.

The United States shot down an Iranian passenger plane in 1988 killing 300 people on board including 80 children. The response from the US Government was that these things happen in conflict... even though they weren't at war and actually fired the rocket when illegally sailing in Iranian territorial waters. They've never apologised for it.

Listen, what happened was terrible... make no bones about it... but the western media need to first sit back and report responsibly. It seems a lot of the reporting and commentary is politically motivated - The scene hasn't even been investigated yet.

The Russians have been calling for a ceasefire. The Ukrainian government called off the last one and they won't agree to one now. The Ukrainian army have instead decided to attack Donetsk.
 

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Brother, I agree it's terrible, but the media aren't at fault, and the airline isn't at fault. This was waiting to happen once Putin invaded his neighbour and armed these lunatics. He's lied about it since then, and him asking for a ceasefire is like a bully asking the victim to stay bullied.

We disagree fundamentally on a lot of this, but I agree totally about the fact that this was terrible. Ironically, it could be that Putin had organised the shipment of the very weapon that struck the plane while he was lying to Merkel at the World Cup about seeking a peaceful solution in Ukraine. The rebels didn't have the equipment to hit a plane at 33,000 feet, until he sent that shipment in. They definitely shot it down in error, but this doesn't make it any better...
 

britbox

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Ok, The plane being brought down is something we agree on. A tragedy.

The rest of it... regarding the commentary, including your own I think is a little bit clouded for want of a better word.

First, Russia never invaded the Ukraine - not in a conventional sense. The Crimea scenario was self-determining and I think one person got shot.

Now of course, anyone would be pretty stupid to argue that the Russians don't have a dog in this. They are clearly providing the rebels with intelligence, some arms (not a massive arsenal by all accounts) and have influence - although not direct control as implied by media commentary.

This is all about geopolitics and to all intents and purposes a proxy conflict. Now, the "bad guy" Putin is looking after Russia's geopolitical interests on his very own borders.

On the flipside, exactly the same is happening in Kiev. Western powers are providing intelligence, direction and arms... to serve their own geopolitical interests. You may think the Director of the CIA was in Kiev on vacation... personally I don't.

You label the Eastern rebels as Russian thugs - the vast majority are actually Ukrainians. It's a Ukraine v Ukraine conflict with other parties backing a side to serve their own interests. It's not a good guy v bad guy division - there is probably little difference between people serving on either side.

At the beginning of all this, western powers were funding NGO's (Non-governmental organisations) and supported what was labelled in the western media as a popular uprising... it wasn't that popular in the east - Russian (which most of them speak) was promptly banned as an official language. Their own uprising was labelled terrorism, not a "popular uprising".

The west didn't want Ukraine falling under the Russian trade agreement and the Russians didn't want the Ukraine falling under the EU umbrella and last of all falling under a NATO umbrella.

Now, this might come as a surprise to you, but I am a westerner and pro-western- but let's just call it for what it is. The west keep encircling and pushing Russia and now it's finally pushing back. The same thing will happen with China further down the line.

As per many recent wars and conflicts, the hegemony of the US dollar in energy dealings is another likely factor - the Russians and Chinese are looking to lessen the reliance of the dollar - their own energy deal will be done in native currencies and the BRICS bank has just been established using a basket of currencies. This is obviously a massive concern to the west, particularly the US, as it will bring down the entire economy.
 

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Well, we agree it's a tragedy, at least. But the whole stuff about Ukraine, and what Putin has done there, and still is doing, and lying about it, his intentions with regards to his neighbours, we haggled over all this before. I utterly disagree. It isn't simply geo-politics: it's the extension of Russian tyranny.

I just hope the victims families get the bodies back, whatever remains of them. 80 children. :nono We know who caused this, and I think it's a stinking shame.